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Here's an idea: Calder Valley Line
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Class 185 cascade suggestions
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Bornin1980s
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A news article in the latest Rail Magazine (already available digitally) states that, should TPE get the Liverpool - Nottingham route, all the 'Nova 3' Mk5a trains would be transferred to that route, with their current and planned routes in the north reverting to 185 operation. This would mean that all the 185s are retained - and that no new trains visit my town.
sjpowermac
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Did RAIL give a source or a reason for using Nova 3 on the Liverpool-Nottingham route?
I’d guess that Siemens York Depot must currently be important for Class 185 maintenance. Does anyone know if Ardwick/Edge Hill do similar work on the units?
In the event that the Nova 3 sets stayed on the North TransPennine route, I wonder what the maintenance regime will be for the Class 185s: is it crucial for them to periodically visit York or can the other depots take that work on?
As it currently stands...
Class 185 A Exam - York (can be done at Ardwick too)
Class 185 B Exam - Ardwick
Class 350 A Exam - Ardwick
Class 350 B Exam - Ardwick
Note the 350s leave soon...
sjpowermac
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Many thanks indeed for that. So there’s no reason for the switch from a maintenance point of view.
It would seem odd to get drivers/guards/catering hosts all trained up on Nova 3, only to move the trains away from the North TransPennine route. Perhaps it was a quiet afternoon in the RAIL office and they were struggling to fill their ‘magazine’
The exams have actually been swapped about between depots in recent years. York used to do the B exams. Things change often, staff don't know what's coming next and as a result the majority of (who were) York now work on IEPs in Doncaster!
I would read it the opposite way in that it is better to keep 185 on TPE north.Many thanks indeed for that. So there’s no reason for the switch from a maintenance point of view.
It would seem odd to get drivers/guards/catering hosts all trained up on Nova 3, only to move the trains away from the North TransPennine route. Perhaps it was a quiet afternoon in the RAIL office and they were struggling to fill their ‘magazine’
sjpowermac
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Why do you think that?
sjpowermac
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Mess skilled staff around and they will go elsewhere, it’s a concept management seem to struggle with
Siemens Depot near either end of the northern route permutations.
CAF/Alstom facilities at the western end of Nova3.
sjpowermac
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I’m not exactly sure what an ‘A’ exam involves, but from this post:
it seems it would be easy enough to transfer the work to Ardwick (or perhaps another depot).
SteveyBee131
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I can't remember the time scales exactly, but I think A exams are roughly weekly, and B exams roughly monthly? Feel free to correct me folks!
Killingworth
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Sounds sensible to me. Replace 4 car single class 158s with 5 car walk through stock offering a modest number of first class seats and catering along the entire train. Two DfT criteria not met by either 158s or 185s plus an extra carriage on the present offer. New rolling stock would be most welcome on this route.
Not sure what issues might be encountered with loco hauled stock instead of multiple units.
I can't remember the time scales exactly, but I think A exams are roughly weekly, and B exams roughly monthly? Feel free to correct me folks!
Every 30,000 miles.
SteveyBee131
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As opposed to the equally capable Siemens depot in Manchester? Not to mention the recent investment in a light maintenance depot sized specifically for the Nova 3 sets in Scarborough...
185s would be a more sensible option for Liverpool to Nottingham anyway; a uniform fleet with the other Hope Valley fast, and the ability to drop a set South of Sheffield at quieter times.
At least if RAIL is publishing it, it's unlikely to happen!
What's the state of play on C-ASDO. I heard that there were problems?
Mitchell Hurd
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That will be an interesting one, something not likely go down well with passengers travelling on the Nova 3's in the North area of the TransPennine route.
However, 6-coach Class 185's mean more seats than a 5-car Nova 3.
However, 6-coach Class 185's mean more seats than a 5-car Nova 3.
There aren't enough Mk5s to operate all services on two routes, so 185s have to operate alongside the 68+Mk5s anyway.
VT 390
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Is it to late to order more Mk5's so that each route is served by one type of train?
YorkshireBear
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I think based on the success of their introduction they’d be way more likely to order 802s for a common fleet across all the Manchester York tpe routes.
I hope Scarborough could be repurposed! Would be horrendous if I shut.
So you would need a further 14 or 15 802s (for 13 diagrams). That isn't going to come cheap. You then end up with the issue of where to send the 185s (which we are discussing) and Mk 5s which are already available (or due to be). 6-car 185s are not inappropriate units for the Middlesbrough route given they don't operate any material distance on 125mph track.
Mitchell Hurd
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I'll wait for GWR to confirm the changes first.
However, assuming that (when having a search on trainline) the timetables are correct, then the Saturday and Sunday morning London Paddington to Penzance via Bristol service is withdrawn and at least the weekday and Saturday service is altered to run via the Newbury / Westbury line.
Personally, I feel that for people going from Swindon, Chippenham, Bath Spa and Bristol Temple Meads that this puts pressure on XC services from Bristol and GWR services from Reading and is one example of where HST's should have stayed.
Having said all this though, one reason that this is great news is because from Didcot Parkway you can leave around 8am / 08:05, change at Reading around 08:15 where there's a Penzance service around 08:30. This gets to Taunton - Penzance earlier than today's one from Didcot, Swindon, Chippenham Bath and Bristol.
I'm guessing there wasn't a huge amount of people catching the GWR Penzance train from Wiltshire and Bristol Temple Meads anyway.
However, assuming that (when having a search on trainline) the timetables are correct, then the Saturday and Sunday morning London Paddington to Penzance via Bristol service is withdrawn and at least the weekday and Saturday service is altered to run via the Newbury / Westbury line.
Personally, I feel that for people going from Swindon, Chippenham, Bath Spa and Bristol Temple Meads that this puts pressure on XC services from Bristol and GWR services from Reading and is one example of where HST's should have stayed.
Having said all this though, one reason that this is great news is because from Didcot Parkway you can leave around 8am / 08:05, change at Reading around 08:15 where there's a Penzance service around 08:30. This gets to Taunton - Penzance earlier than today's one from Didcot, Swindon, Chippenham Bath and Bristol.
I'm guessing there wasn't a huge amount of people catching the GWR Penzance train from Wiltshire and Bristol Temple Meads anyway.
YorkshireBear
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Indeed I only think that's more likely than orderinrg mkIVs I don't think they'll order either!
That'd be a lose on every level. Anyone who's shared the toilet on an overcrowded EMT service out of Manchester Oxford Road with four or five other people will, I'm sure, be happy to confirm that an extra carriage is unlikley to give the extra capacity required on Liv - Nott. As others have pointed out, there's the lovely new maintenance depot at Scarbs which was built specially to serve the MkV sets, and which presumably has no role if they are moved elsewhere. Unless TPE have enough 185s to double Middlesbrough and Scarborough services, they'd also be cheerfully waving two fingers at the passengers who've put up with overcroding and repeated cancellations on the promise of some adequately sized trains, and removing capacity from what is I think the busiest partb of the TPE network, the Leeds - Manc corridor.
Are any of the TPE insiders able to restore my faith in the company?
Killingworth
Established Member
As I waited for my westbound TPE service from Barnetby today it was showing as 3 cars and on time. As it approached we were advised that passengers for Manchester Airport and East Didsbury should travel in the rear half of the train as it would be detached there.
(All the platform furniture was being painted today and the station was looking smart after the platform lengthening within the last year.)
3 cars duly arrived, and remained on time into Sheffield. One day the cascades will occur but these 6 car hints have been coming for about 2 years and South Pennine users are losing patience. Especially when we hear the ASDO system doesn't work and has been isolated, and some days the SDO doesn't work either so 6 car trains can't stop at shorter stations. About 100 left fuming on the platform at Dore & Totley last Thursday when the 7.14 sailed through without stopping - 'a technical fault'.
(All the platform furniture was being painted today and the station was looking smart after the platform lengthening within the last year.)
3 cars duly arrived, and remained on time into Sheffield. One day the cascades will occur but these 6 car hints have been coming for about 2 years and South Pennine users are losing patience. Especially when we hear the ASDO system doesn't work and has been isolated, and some days the SDO doesn't work either so 6 car trains can't stop at shorter stations. About 100 left fuming on the platform at Dore & Totley last Thursday when the 7.14 sailed through without stopping - 'a technical fault'.
At least the lovely EMR guard came to the rescue and accepted all their TPE only tickets without question when their control didn't bother to tip anyone off...
Busy morning that was!Our knowledge and experience of the route isn't worth a sausage in the face of Transport for the North's relentless quest for 'forget the question, the answer is TPE' however - so screw it, I'll look forward to an easier life pottering around Lincolnshire and never having to work through Manchester again!
Killingworth
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At least the lovely EMR guard came to the rescue and accepted all their TPE only tickets without question when their control didn't bother to tip anyone off...
Our knowledge and experience of the route isn't worth a sausage in the face of Transport for the North's relentless quest for 'forget the question, the answer is TPE' however - so screw it, I'll look forward to an easier life pottering around Lincolnshire and never having to work through Manchester again!
Much appreciated. 6 car 185s are a nightmare at Dore & Totley. They can draw up at the signal and two carriages are out of the platform because it was shortened in 1985. Plans to restore and add a second 6 car platform have been kicking around for decades and should have been completed by December 2018.
Why a temporary extended platform couldn't be added is down to expense. Until at least 2022/23 the problem will persist. Curious how a crisis gets results, like when Network Rail produced a new station in weeks at Workington.
Just to build on a post I stuck in a different thread recently...
The current plan is to use:
Cl 802: LIV - EDB, MIA - NCL
Cl 397: MIA - EDB, MIA - GLC, LIV - GLC
MkVa: LIV - SCA, MIA - MBR
Cl 185: MIA - CLE, MAN - HUL, MIA - MBR, MAN - HUD, HUD - LDS
Quickly throwing some numbers out, if you made all workings that are to remain as Cl185 up to 6 cars, you’d need:
10 units for HUL - MAN
+ 14 units for CLE - MIA
+ 2 units for MBR - MIA (due to Redcar extension and extended turnarounds)
+ 2 units for MAN - HUD stopper*
+ 2 units for LDS - HUD stopper*
= 30 Units
*assumed running as single sets.
Once Platform 0 is completed at Leeds and the stoppers are combined in the long term, this may lead to running as double sets which could total 8 units...
+ 4 units to strengthen stoppers
= 34 units
Then there’s the potential of the Liverpool - Nottingham services...
+ 14 units for LIV - NOT
= 48 units
Add in some hot spares/maintenance...
+ 3 units
= 51 total units!
So there’s clearly a case for keeping them all!
The depot at SCA is set up to accommodate 2x MkVa sets and is not easily reconfigurable to accommodate a different fleet. In my opinion (and I should clarify that this is pure speculation and imagination), I could see the following as a long term:
Cl 802: LIV - EDB, MIA - NCL, MIA - MBR (requiring the ordering of 8x more to allow running to Saltburn)
Cl 397: MIA - EDB, MIA - GLC, LIV - GLC
MkVa: LIV - SCA, MAN - HUL
Cl 185: MIA - CLE, MAN - HUD - LDS, LIV - NOT
Class 185 would then be maintained at Ardwick and Crofton. This would unify all fleets running north of York and on the south route.
The current plan is to use:
Cl 802: LIV - EDB, MIA - NCL
Cl 397: MIA - EDB, MIA - GLC, LIV - GLC
MkVa: LIV - SCA, MIA - MBR
Cl 185: MIA - CLE, MAN - HUL, MIA - MBR, MAN - HUD, HUD - LDS
Quickly throwing some numbers out, if you made all workings that are to remain as Cl185 up to 6 cars, you’d need:
10 units for HUL - MAN
+ 14 units for CLE - MIA
+ 2 units for MBR - MIA (due to Redcar extension and extended turnarounds)
+ 2 units for MAN - HUD stopper*
+ 2 units for LDS - HUD stopper*
= 30 Units
*assumed running as single sets.
Once Platform 0 is completed at Leeds and the stoppers are combined in the long term, this may lead to running as double sets which could total 8 units...
+ 4 units to strengthen stoppers
= 34 units
Then there’s the potential of the Liverpool - Nottingham services...
+ 14 units for LIV - NOT
= 48 units
Add in some hot spares/maintenance...
+ 3 units
= 51 total units!
So there’s clearly a case for keeping them all!
The depot at SCA is set up to accommodate 2x MkVa sets and is not easily reconfigurable to accommodate a different fleet. In my opinion (and I should clarify that this is pure speculation and imagination), I could see the following as a long term:
Cl 802: LIV - EDB, MIA - NCL, MIA - MBR (requiring the ordering of 8x more to allow running to Saltburn)
Cl 397: MIA - EDB, MIA - GLC, LIV - GLC
MkVa: LIV - SCA, MAN - HUL
Cl 185: MIA - CLE, MAN - HUD - LDS, LIV - NOT
Class 185 would then be maintained at Ardwick and Crofton. This would unify all fleets running north of York and on the south route.
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