Locally managed trains a failure?

Based on the past year or so, I think it is fair to say that locally ran trains are becoming a failure.

West Midlands Trains (Accountable to the West Midlands Rail Executive):
Insistent on lots of through trains and leaving passengers at the end of lines being left without services (Liverpool & Rugeley for example).

Transport for Wales (Accountable to welsh government):
Find pleasure in running the worst service possible on the smaller lines like HoW and Wrex-Bidston lines. Also lots of splitting longer distance Manchester services (mostly no service Shrewsbury to Cardiff where another train picks up the service) and the Cheltenham Spa train might as well be cut out of the timetables. That is cancelled more often than it runs!

Merseyrail (Accountable to Merseytravel):
Frequently gives up on Chester and Ellesmere Port line services in favour of providing capacity at the Liverpool end. Hunts Cross also suffers regular cancellations. Kirkby travellers are reporting much worse services as well compared to a year or so ago. Given the Merseyrail line is self contained, they can't blame other TOCs, it is just their managers not giving a stuff about the loop or passengers. Chester/Ellesmere Port trains seem to be timetabled quite a lot so there is a long break in Birkenhead towards Liverpool rather than just retiming the services so passengers don't have to sit in one station for so long (given most people travel 'through') (1-2 mins isn't bad but they did have stops of around 4-5 minutes not so long ago).

Scotrail (Accountable to Transport Scotland):
Does anything actually have to be said here..... Satisfaction down and even passenger numbers are decreasing due to the standard of Scotrail services.

Is it now time that we stop the Scottish Government, Welsh Government and local authorities taking charge and trying to run our railway and go back to the DFT issuing all franchises and setting all standard. While the DFT isn't great, they seem to be doing a hell of a lot better than the current locally managed operators.

Yes becuase dft involvement is absolutely perfect isnt it?

The op has made some let's say one sided comments about various devolved administrations. I wonder why?

WYPTE has undoubtedly been a force for good in the county, reopening stations, funding train carriages, campaigning for electrification and getting services improved.

I doubt that any of this would have happenned without the PTE.

markymark2000 said:

Transport for Wales (Accountable to welsh government):
Find pleasure in running the worst service possible on the smaller lines like HoW and Wrex-Bidston lines

Click to expand...

Please don't put me in the position of defending the Welsh decision makers... but if you think that their plans for doubling the frequency of the Wrexham - Bidston line and for introducing 100mph 170s on the Heart Of Wales is taking pleasure in running the worst possible service then... I'm not sure how much you expect them to transform, given the levels of service that they inherited (AUIU both the Bidston line and the HoW have had little change between BR days and now - until the recent tweaks to the HoW, which seemed to be more about running a practical service than the box-ticking exercise of running four through trains a day at fairly useless times just so they can say that there are four trains a day)

FWIW I'd rather that the decision makers invested more in the busier lines around Cardiff/Swansea than their focus on rural bits like the HoW and the obsession with Holyhead - Cardiff (both good vote winners with the nationalists, I guess), but it seems odd to criticise them for the Bidston line and HoW given that these will be two of the biggest winners from the new franchise

markymark2000 said:

Merseyrail (Accountable to Merseytravel):

Click to expand...

...the people who ordered fifty something new trains? Whilst passengers on the non-Merseytravel-run franchises are stuck with 150s?

markymark2000 said:

Scotrail (Accountable to Transport Scotland):
Does anything actually have to be said here.....

Click to expand...

I'm not big fan of the SNP administration but in the last few years ScotRail has been transformed with all of the investment in the central belt - there are now eleven electrified services per hour from Edinburgh to Glasgow - a few years ago there was only a bi-hourly GNER service - there's been lots of electrification, lots of new EMUs, longer trains on from Aberdeen/Inverness to the central belt, lines re-opened (Alloa, Tweedbank), serious plans for additional re-openings (Levenmouth), increased frequencies outside the central belt (e.g. Montrose/ Inverurie into Aberdeen), the headline-grabbing "bike train" 153s on the WHL, transformed Queen Street...

...I'd say that local accountability has been great for Scotland - obviously the huge investment programme has affected reliability (and there have been well documented problems with Wabtec getting the vintage HSTs upgraded) but give me a service run by Transport Scotland over one run by the DfT any time!

TFL, when compared to Silverlink and Southern, has improved the orbital London lines no end.

markymark2000 said:

Scotrail (Accountable to Transport Scotland):
Does anything actually have to be said here..... Satisfaction down and even passenger numbers are decreasing due to the standard of Scotrail services.

Click to expand...

Do you honestly think the Scottish Government, let alone an SNP one would surrender powers back to Westminster? It actually want more powers devolved rather than less. Responsibility for failure to deliver a decent service must lie with the operator not the funder.

Have to completely disagree with you on this one.

The "nationally" run franchises are also full of calamities often much worse than the ones you mention.

Northern anyone? A good example of a franchise not being driven by or accountable to the localities it serves springs to mind.

I thought West Midlands Trains (and therefore WMR) were still accountable to the DfT and it isn't until the next franchising round when WMR/LNR are separated that TfWM or which ever regional board take responsibility of the franchising?

The problems stated are both problems with LNR rather WMR with the interworking of London services. They have been quite proactive with making changes to diagrams as to balance demand though.
https://www.westmidlandsrailway.co.uk/improving-may-2019-timetable

With both WMR/TfW, surely it is currently a case of not caring too much until the new trains arrive?

markymark2000 said:

Transport for Wales (Accountable to welsh government):
Find pleasure in running the worst service possible on the smaller lines like HoW and Wrex-Bidston lines. Also lots of splitting longer distance Manchester services (mostly no service Shrewsbury to Cardiff where another train picks up the service) and the Cheltenham Spa train might as well be cut out of the timetables. That is cancelled more often than it runs!

Click to expand...

They've only had a year in the job, taking over to find a fleet that was developing wheel flats at an alarming rate last autumn, a quarter of their fleet (Pacers) due to be withdrawn by the end of this year, and much of the rest of the fleet needing refurbishment or modification too. Much of the rolling stock they expected to receive early in the franchise is not yet available to them, including some units that were ordered under the previous franchise (the first 5 769s). Meanwhile their new rolling stock is on order.

I think it's a bit early to judge them yet. Maybe this time next year, after the PRM deadline has been and gone, would be a better time to evaluate their success or failure.

tbtc said:

Please don't put me in the position of defending the Welsh decision makers... but if you think that their plans for doubling the frequency of the Wrexham - Bidston line and for introducing 100mph 170s on the Heart Of Wales is taking pleasure in running the worst possible service then... I'm not sure how much you expect them to transform, given the levels of service that they inherited (AUIU both the Bidston line and the HoW have had little change between BR days and now - until the recent tweaks to the HoW, which seemed to be more about running a practical service than the box-ticking exercise of running four through trains a day at fairly useless times just so they can say that there are four trains a day)

FWIW I'd rather that the decision makers invested more in the busier lines around Cardiff/Swansea than their focus on rural bits like the HoW and the obsession with Holyhead - Cardiff (both good vote winners with the nationalists, I guess), but it seems odd to criticise them for the Bidston line and HoW given that these will be two of the biggest winners from the new franchise



...the people who ordered fifty something new trains? Whilst passengers on the non-Merseytravel-run franchises are stuck with 150s?



I'm not big fan of the SNP administration but in the last few years ScotRail has been transformed with all of the investment in the central belt - there are now eleven electrified services per hour from Edinburgh to Glasgow - a few years ago there was only a bi-hourly GNER service - there's been lots of electrification, lots of new EMUs, longer trains on from Aberdeen/Inverness to the central belt, lines re-opened (Alloa, Tweedbank), serious plans for additional re-openings (Levenmouth), increased frequencies outside the central belt (e.g. Montrose/ Inverurie into Aberdeen), the headline-grabbing "bike train" 153s on the WHL, transformed Queen Street...

...I'd say that local accountability has been great for Scotland - obviously the huge investment programme has affected reliability (and there have been well documented problems with Wabtec getting the vintage HSTs upgraded) but give me a service run by Transport Scotland over one run by the DfT any time!

Click to expand...

Crikey if it wasn’t for Merseytravel what would the train service be like at the following CHESHIRE stations: Bache, Chester, Little Sutton, Overpool, Ellesmere Port and Hooton ( the Station is actually in Cheshire!)

Llandudno said:

Crikey if it wasn’t for Merseytravel what would the train service be like at the following CHESHIRE stations: Bache, Chester, Little Sutton, Overpool, Ellesmere Port and Hooton ( the Station is actually in Cheshire!)

Click to expand...

And Aughton Park/Town Green.

yorksrob said:

WYPTE has undoubtedly been a force for good in the county, reopening stations, funding train carriages, campaigning for electrification and getting services improved.

I doubt that any of this would have happenned without the PTE.

Click to expand...

I would have to agree and include services reintroduced, Knottingley to Leeds via Wakefield the latest. Also all sorts of ticket deals and for us older ones half fares off peak within West Yorks. Devices would be much worse without them but it must be remembered they have the income to be able to put money where their mouth is. Contrast that with North Yorkshire, large area relatively few people and not a lot of money, equals poor service.

Bletchleyite said:

And Aughton Park/Town Green.

Click to expand...

In fairness Town Green, Aughton Park and Ormskirk, all in Lancashire had frequent electric services to Liverpool Exchange prior to the formation of Merseytravel.

I am pretty certain that without Merseytravel intervention rail fares across the former Merseyside County area would be an awful lot higher in real terms than they currently are. Virtually all stations that have car parks are free to use as well, whereas Northern are gradually introducing car parking charges outside PTE areas.

LMS 4F said:

I would have to agree and include services reintroduced, Knottingley to Leeds via Wakefield the latest. Also all sorts of ticket deals and for us older ones half fares off peak within West Yorks. Devices would be much worse without them but it must be remembered they have the income to be able to put money where their mouth is. Contrast that with North Yorkshire, large area relatively few people and not a lot of money, equals poor service.

Click to expand...

Add to that of course, Castleford to Huddersfield (which I'm finding quite useful).

I don't think WMR/WMT is beholden to the WM government body yet, the current service will have been approved by DfT mainly.
TfW/Merseyrail both have new fleets on order, and both are struggling with long-term underinvestment issues.
TfW has started the Chester-Liverpool service to some satisfaction, but it must have further strained rolling stock problems elsewhere.

One of the most depressing daily TfW sights at Chester is the arrival of a crowded 5-car 221 from London, with virtually all the passengers then trailing along P3 with their luggage in order to try and board (if it hasn't left) an already-full 2-car 158 (having come from Birmingham/Cardiff) for the journey down the coast.
Either the WC 221s should run further west, or the TfW service needs strengthening.

Scotrail is a different kettle of fish, because the regional authority (TS) has been in full control for well over a decade and is reaping what it has sown.
Personally I find Scotrail services compare very well with their English/Welsh equivalents, but the Scots still seem to find fault with the operator.
Five different electric routes between its two biggest cities is far more than anything we have down here.

LNW-GW Joint said:

Scotrail is a different kettle of fish, because the regional authority (TS) has been in full control for well over a decade and is reaping what it has sown.
Personally I find Scotrail services compare very well with their English/Welsh equivalents, but the Scots still seem to find fault with the operator.
Five different electric routes between its two biggest cities is far more than anything we have down here.

Click to expand...

Yes, it's amazing how Scotland just seems to have gotten on with it's five electrified routes between Glasgow and Edinburgh, yet the DfT is still procrastinating about electrifying one route across the Pennines (including the supposedly 'unelectrifyable' Standedge tunnel and the current fetish for bi-modes).

Llandudno said:

Crikey if it wasn’t for Merseytravel what would the train service be like at the following CHESHIRE stations: Bache, Chester, Little Sutton, Overpool, Ellesmere Port and Hooton ( the Station is actually in Cheshire!)

Click to expand...

Agreed. If it wasn't for the network being run by a metropolitan body there are all sorts of benefits people would miss out on entirely.

Thanks to strikes and ageing equipment, Merseyrail hasn't had the best year but it's nonsense for anyone to conflate that with a problem with local control. Also very untrue that different parts of the network get preferential treatment. It's a whole network view that drives decisions always, even if some of the things tried have had undesirable impacts.

For a long time, Merseyrail has been an exemplar rail service. That shows local control is right, rather than wrong.

LNW-GW Joint said:

I don't think WMR/WMT is beholden to the WM government body yet, the current service will have been approved by DfT mainly.
TfW/Merseyrail both have new fleets on order, and both are struggling with long-term underinvestment issues.
TfW has started the Chester-Liverpool service to some satisfaction, but it must have further strained rolling stock problems elsewhere.

One of the most depressing daily TfW sights at Chester is the arrival of a crowded 5-car 221 from London, with virtually all the passengers then trailing along P3 with their luggage in order to try and board (if it hasn't left) an already-full 2-car 158 (having come from Birmingham/Cardiff) for the journey down the coast.
Either the WC 221s should run further west, or the TfW service needs strengthening.

Scotrail is a different kettle of fish, because the regional authority (TS) has been in full control for well over a decade and is reaping what it has sown.
Personally I find Scotrail services compare very well with their English/Welsh equivalents, but the Scots still seem to find fault with the operator.
Five different electric routes between its two biggest cities is far more than anything we have down here.

Click to expand...

Yep, connections at Chester can be something of a lottery. Little attempt made to hold connecting trains, even for a few minutes.

There is no clock face timetable along the Coast, irregular stopping patterns, trains all over the place, with sometimes three trains in 20 minutes then nothing for almost an hour.

As for Sundays, no West bound trains from Chester before 0948 and then only one train per hour all day.

Camden said:

...Merseyrail hasn't had the best year but it's nonsense for anyone to conflate that with a problem with local control. ...

Click to expand...

agreed. There are other good points in this thread. I strongly disagree with the original post.

Llandudno said:

Yep, connections at Chester can be something of a lottery. ....

Click to expand...

Before you go any further, if you or anyone else wishes to discuss this matter in more detail please do create a new thread (it's an important issue in its own right and deserves its own thread; it also makes it easier to follow this thread if we can avoid going into too much detail on any other matters, even if they are related)

A parody surely? Anyway if you want to see some resounding DfT successes look at Southeastern on its latest short term extension with little investment for many years

Ok, to balance it out a bit,
Locally managed trains DO have some pros. New trains, new stations and in some cases increased services. WYPTE seems to do well at managing train and TFL have put on a LOT more services and has put in a lot of investment.

TFW:
Has brought in more trains (though this would have been a franchise commitment anyway) and has put on the Chester - Liverpool service (Arriva would have done this if the infrastructure was in place). For all of TFW, I believe Arriva managed the network much better and was much more balanced with a lot less issues.

Merseyrail:
Has kept fares low and invested in a lot of new trains (new trains would have been a franchise commitment if it was under DFT). They are wasting money on new stations though like Maghull North which was built primarily to serve the 300 house development adjacent. It just takes away from Maghull main station! Merseyrail is also painfully slow. If it wasn't ran by Merseytravel, I believe something would have been done to introduce faster trains.

West Midlands Trains:
Again has orders lots of trains and increased services but as has been documented elsewhere on this forum, the mess they have made by ridding the Rugeley shuttle and putting it on a Euston service.

Scotrail:
Has got lots of pros and has invested a lot. I can't say much on the overall story as it was based on threads on the forum as well as news articles. I haven't experienced Scotrail services.

markymark2000 said:

Based on the past year or so, I think it is fair to say that locally ran trains are becoming a failure.

Scotrail (Accountable to Transport Scotland):
Does anything actually have to be said here..... Satisfaction down and even passenger numbers are decreasing due to the standard of Scotrail services.

Is it now time that we stop the Scottish Government, Welsh Government and local authorities taking charge and trying to run our railway and go back to the DFT issuing all franchises and setting all standard. While the DFT isn't great, they seem to be doing a hell of a lot better than the current locally managed operators.

Click to expand...

You could not be more wrong, I very much doubt the investment in the railway in Scotland would have happened to the same extent if it was not devolved to Transport Scotland. What we are currently seeing in Scotland is a 'perfect storm' of poor supplier performance, some strange decision making by Abellio, unlucky events and ScotRail being used as a political pawn by Labour / Tory / Lib Dem to get at the SNP

I think TfW has had a very hard time, and I think that's set to continue for the next few years at least. However, their service on the line between Cardiff and Cheltenham has been abysmal. There seems to be about 4+ trains on the route cancelled (or part cancelled) per day. And when they do run, they now seem to be formed of 153s that are crushloaded! The XC trains are usually limited stop (or non stop) between Newport and Gloucester. Extra buses are frequently provided, although seem to be starting/terminating at Lydney often at the moment. It's just a bit of a mess, although granted, not all their fault.

markymark2000 said:

Ok, to balance it out a bit,
Locally managed trains DO have some pros. New trains, new stations and in some cases increased services. WYPTE seems to do well at managing train and TFL have put on a LOT more services and has put in a lot of investment.

TFW:
Has brought in more trains (though this would have been a franchise commitment anyway) and has put on the Chester - Liverpool service (Arriva would have done this if the infrastructure was in place). For all of TFW, I believe Arriva managed the network much better and was much more balanced with a lot less issues.

Merseyrail:
Has kept fares low and invested in a lot of new trains (new trains would have been a franchise commitment if it was under DFT). They are wasting money on new stations though like Maghull North which was built primarily to serve the 300 house development adjacent. It just takes away from Maghull main station! Merseyrail is also painfully slow. If it wasn't ran by Merseytravel, I believe something would have been done to introduce faster trains.

West Midlands Trains:
Again has orders lots of trains and increased services but as has been documented elsewhere on this forum, the mess they have made by ridding the Rugeley shuttle and putting it on a Euston service.

Scotrail:
Has got lots of pros and has invested a lot. I can't say much on the overall story as it was based on threads on the forum as well as news articles. I haven't experienced Scotrail services.

Click to expand...

Well I wouldn't call Maghull North a waste, it's actually very well used. And Maghull is still very well used so I dont see how you can say it's just taking away from it!
Coupled with the earlier "many more people are now complaining about kirkby trains" (again without a shred of evidence!) I'm interested in how anyone can view this as anything other than a personal rant!

jamesst said:

Well I wouldn't call Maghull North a waste, it's actually very well used. And Maghull is still very well used so I dont see how you can say it's just taking away from it!
Coupled with the earlier "many more people are now complaining about kirkby trains" (again without a shred of evidence!) I'm interested in how anyone can view this as anything other than a personal rant!

Click to expand...

There were a lot of complaints on the Merseyrail & Merseytravel twitter about the Kirkby services.

As for Maghull North, of course it is used but it will be taking from the original station given they are only 5 minutes drive apart. It was generally a waste of money and the funds would have been better spent on improving the existing station.

The original post is not meant to be a rant and is based on regularly using TFW and Merseyrail. Scotrail and WMR is based on posts on threads on THIS FORUM!

All train services should be managed by the Standing Committee of the Central Political Bureau of the Communist Party of China.

markymark2000 said:

As for Maghull North, of course it is used but it will be taking from the original station given they are only 5 minutes drive apart. It was generally a waste of money and the funds would have been better spent on improving the existing station.

Click to expand...

I think you slightly miss the point. As a very local service, most people reach Merseyrail stations on foot. The new station allows a fairly large part of Maghull (including new development which will be taking place around there) to walk to a Merseyrail station, very few people drive (not all stations have a car park, and of those which do they are mostly small and not full). Very few even cycle. On this basis it was absolutely right to build it. Think of it as a pseudo-bus stop and it makes more sense.

With a very local service, if you're going to get in the car you might as well drive all the way.

Crikey, Aughton Park and Town Green are only about 10 minutes' walk apart, what do you want to do, close one?

Bletchleyite said:

I think you slightly miss the point. As a very local service, most people reach Merseyrail stations on foot. The new station allows a fairly large part of Maghull (including new development which will be taking place around there) to walk to a Merseyrail station, very few people drive (not all stations have a car park, and of those which do they are mostly small and not full). Very few even cycle. On this basis it was absolutely right to build it. Think of it as a pseudo-bus stop and it makes more sense.

With a very local service, if you're going to get in the car you might as well drive all the way.

Crikey, Aughton Park and Town Green are only about 10 minutes' walk apart, what do you want to do, close one?

Click to expand...

Shall we build a train station every mile then so people can walk to their closest station. Even TFL aren't that deluded. If we need stops so close, we are missing a Moreton West stop on Millhouse Lane and Smithdown Road station needs reopening. It isn't feasible to have stops so close, so often. Merseyrail is painful enough to travel on with the stop start without putting in more stops. Based Some stops on the national rail network are close. I get that. Maghull North was not specifically need though and buses were available linking to Maghull station every 30 minutes.

Money is spent so thoughtlessly with Merseyrail/Merseytravel. They are forever complaining of no money yet are more than happy to fund developments with more than 300 homes to have a train station. Don't tell them about the gap between Upton and Heswall stations, They will be up for another 2 stations between there if we need stops a mile apart!

I've got to say, TfW is not a local ran thing. It's ran by its own government.

And the hand it was dealt was awful. The state that arriva left it was bordering on criminal. A fleet with virtually no prm mods completed, full of bust wheel sets and the cherry on top was no spare parts.

Arriva decided to ship every spare part from Canton to Northern when it was known it was not winning the franchise.

So when TfW got the reins it was set up to fail immediately. They have tried to fix the overcrowding by getting more loco stock.

Unfortunately it's not going to get any better soon - but it highlights a complete lack of knowledge on the matter to just blame them outright.

yorksrob said:

WYPTE has undoubtedly been a force for good in the county, reopening stations, funding train carriages, campaigning for electrification and getting services improved.

I doubt that any of this would have happenned without the PTE.

Click to expand...

In its first 20 years the PTE achieved a lot of what you mention but following privatisation of the bus fleet, and loss of key staff, it just became a typical local government rest home. Six station openings in the last quarter century isn't much (and two of those were a mistake).

Similarly whist some on here approve the extension of the Knottingley-Wakefield trains to Leeds and the Huddersfield-Wakefield trains to Castleford I would suggest these changes support the OP's point. Running the Huddersfield trains to Castleford rather than Westgate has significantly worsened the Hudderfield-Kings cross rail journey-yes you can change at Leeds but fighting your way onto a packed TPE connection is hardly appealing. Meanwhile the diverted units are largely carrying fresh air to Castleford. Extending the Knottingley-Wakefield service to Leeds via Westgate has taken up allegedly scarce paths again to carry fresh air.