Chelsfield and Knockholt

RJ · 23 Jul 2019

Travelling down to Orpington this evening, I spotted notices displayed by Southeastern stating the following;

"Please remember Oyster and other contactless payment cards are not valid on Southeastern services beyond Orpington"

This conflicts with information published by National Rail and TfL, which suggest that Chelsfield and Knockholt stations are in Zone 6 and within the Oyster/CPC area.

Sources
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/london-rail-and-tube-services-map.pdf
https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/London_Rail_Tube_0519.pdf

Which is correct in this instance?

RailUK Forums

alistairlees · 23 Jul 2019

Knockholt and Chelsfield are both in Zone 6.

The Southeastern notice might be a reference to services that, after Orpington, are next stop Sevenoaks. There are frequently announcements on these services that "Oyster / Contactless are not valid beyond Orpington, and users will need to alight, tap out, buy a ticket and board a following service".

MikeWh · 24 Jul 2019

RJ said:
Travelling down to Orpington this evening, I spotted notices displayed by Southeastern stating the following;

"Please remember Oyster and other contactless payment cards are not valid on Southeastern services beyond Orpington"

This conflicts with information published by National Rail and TfL, which suggest that Chelsfield and Knockholt stations are in Zone 6 and within the Oyster/CPC area.

Sources
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/london-rail-and-tube-services-map.pdf
https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/London_Rail_Tube_0519.pdf

Which is correct in this instance?

Oyster and contactless are valid as far as Knockholt. Were the notices you saw on a train which ran fast from Orpington to Sevenoaks?

jnjkerbin · 24 Jul 2019

Use these trains quite a lot - on services which are non-stop to beyond Knockholt after Orpington, the announcements you mention play on arrival at Orpington. However, on trains which do stop at Knockholt, they make a similar announcement saying Knockholt is the last station just before arrival there. If I remember correctly (though I may be wrong) the actual announcement is '... are not valid on this service...' (my bold) which is of course correct.

Joe Paxton · 24 Jul 2019

For what it's worth, both Chelsfield and Knockholt very much do have Oyster/CPC validators, and have done since January 2010 (when Oyster PAYG expanded onto NR in London).

Like others have said, the notices will have been about fast services that don't stop at these two stations.

RJ · 25 Jul 2019

alistairlees said:
Knockholt and Chelsfield are both in Zone 6.

The Southeastern notice might be a reference to services that, after Orpington, are next stop Sevenoaks. There are frequently announcements on these services that "Oyster / Contactless are not valid beyond Orpington, and users will need to alight, tap out, buy a ticket and board a following service".

MikeWh said:
Oyster and contactless are valid as far as Knockholt. Were the notices you saw on a train which ran fast from Orpington to Sevenoaks?

Joe Paxton said:
For what it's worth, both Chelsfield and Knockholt very much do have Oyster/CPC validators, and have done since January 2010 (when Oyster PAYG expanded onto NR in London).

Like others have said, the notices will have been about fast services that don't stop at these two stations.

All,

Thank you for confirming that Chelsfield and Knockholt are in Zone 6 and Oyster and CPC can be used at those stations.

"Please remember Oyster and other contactless payment cards are not valid on this service beyond Orpington" would convey the right message on trains running fast from Orpington to a station beyond Knockholt. It's an interesting strategy to choose to display an untrue statement, where a clear and simple correct statement could have been used.

MikeWh · 29 Jul 2019

Just got off a GA service to Bishops Stortford at Broxbourne. As we arrived there was an announcement saying that Oyster and contactless are not valid beyond Broxbourne on this service. Looks like this is a standard style of message, which is no bad thing.

Busaholic · 29 Jul 2019

An aside, really, but Knockholt and Chelsfield were drawn into the new Greater London area from Kent in 1965 and, in the case of the former, many of the inhabitants were unhappy with the redrawing of the boundaries. In 1969 Knockholt went back into Kent. and one effect was the losing of their once week mobile library service provided by the London Borough of Bromley. I was an assistant on it at the time and I remember telling a lady that as it would be our last call she couldn't take more books out: she was most indignant, but someone else told me she'd been prominent in fighting for the change! Our driver, very old Orpington and no lover of the upper middle classes, loved it!

adrock1976 · 29 Jul 2019

Busaholic said:
An aside, really, but Knockholt and Chelsfield were drawn into the new Greater London area from Kent in 1965 and, in the case of the former, many of the inhabitants were unhappy with the redrawing of the boundaries. In 1969 Knockholt went back into Kent. and one effect was the losing of their once week mobile library service provided by the London Borough of Bromley. I was an assistant on it at the time and I remember telling a lady that as it would be our last call she couldn't take more books out: she was most indignant, but someone else told me she'd been prominent in fighting for the change! Our driver, very old Orpington and no lover of the upper middle classes, loved it!

Regarding the reference to the Borough of Bromley, I read somewhere many years ago that the street signs do not mention London at all (as you would get with London Borough of Lambeth etc), which suggests to me that they want to be part of London, but not really wanting to be there.

Also, was it the Borough of Bromley that had objected to and thwarted the then Greater London Council's plans for a flat fare on the London Underground, with the reason being that London Underground does not serve anywhere in the Borough of Bromley at all?

Surreytraveller · 29 Jul 2019

adrock1976 said:
Regarding the reference to the Borough of Bromley, I read somewhere many years ago that the street signs do not mention London at all (as you would get with London Borough of Lambeth etc), which suggests to me that they want to be part of London, but not really wanting to be there.

Also, was it the Borough of Bromley that had objected to and thwarted the then Greater London Council's plans for a flat fare on the London Underground, with the reason being that London Underground does not serve anywhere in the Borough of Bromley at all?

Same with Croydon. People in Croydon, particularly in the south of the borough, still believe that they are in Surrey. In a similar vein to Knockholt, Farleigh and Hooley were moved into Greater London in 1965, but were moved back into Surrey. I think a similar thing happened in the Horley / Gatwick area too, between West Sussex and Surrey (might have been one of the border villages in that area)

Weary Walker · 29 Jul 2019

From memory, Horley, Charlwood & Gatwick were all listed in the 1972 Local Government act as moving from Surrey to Sussex.
But these provisions weren't due to take effect until 1974
In the meantime the voters of Charlwood & Horley complained and got those bits of the act suspended/cancelled so that they never transferred.
Gatwick (& Lowfield Heath) were transferred, more precisely the boundary was redrawn.

Kite159 · 8 Sep 2019

Sorry to bump an old thread but I noticed this on Friday when I alighted from a Sevenoaks stopper at Orpington, that the on board announcements was suggesting that Orpington was the last station where oyster & contactless cards were valid, even though it called at Chelsfield & Knockholt.

MikeWh · 8 Sep 2019

Kite159 said:
Sorry to bump an old thread but I noticed this on Friday when I alighted from a Sevenoaks stopper at Orpington, that the on board announcements was suggesting that Orpington was the last station where oyster & contactless cards were valid, even though it called at Chelsfield & Knockholt.

Do you know which train it was? I'd report it to Southeastern if I'd heard it.

Kite159 · 9 Sep 2019

MikeWh said:
Do you know which train it was? I'd report it to Southeastern if I'd heard it.

I believe it was the 1739 London Cannon Street to Sevenoaks service.

Chelsfield and Knockholt

RJ

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alistairlees

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MikeWh

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jnjkerbin

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RJ

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