SouthEastern franchise direct award through to 1 April 2020 (& franchise competition terminated)

hwl · 8 Sep 2019

ScotGG said:
Solutions only apply to other franchises. Amazing how often with SE things can't be done.

The work /cost required for solutions is often higher then anticipated at quick glance for example the 365 3rd rail issue.
As stabling /depot space at SE is maxed out that need to be addressed properly as part of any rolling stock increase which isn't quick and need a proper long term franchise agreement or radical thinking for a direct award (i.e. some planning not an emergency DA).

SE needs a decent amount spending on it to make changes including on the revenue side by gating stations and collecting revenue.

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yorksrob · 8 Sep 2019

hwl said:
Shoe gear - Cheap enough to buy /make all the required bits.
The main problem is that the isolation wasn't adequate previously (close but not quite) and this is now on everyones radar screens after several SWT/R 455 incidents were the new traction electronics went up in smoke but couldn't be isolated from the 3rd rail. Ditto the 458 post refurb fire. It isn't just the shoe gear...

That's interesting. I'm surprised that it seems to have arisen as a problem in recent years.

ctrh136 · 8 Sep 2019

NorthKent1989 said:
It’s amazingly pathetic that one can travel across a large part of South London from Shortlands to Brixton for free.

My local stations at Greenwich and Blackheath are both major suburban stations, with Greenwich being an actual TfL interchange both still have no proper barriers, Greenwich is large enough to have them.

I do find that they have ticket inspectors at Brixton every so often. Not really sure how they can put in barriers on the northbound platform without a lot of cost!

bionic · 8 Sep 2019

ctrh136 said:
I do find that they have ticket inspectors at Brixton every so often. Not really sure how they can put in barriers on the northbound platform without a lot of cost!

They never have inspectors anywhere after the evening peak. Even the REOs tend to spend most of their time keeping out of the way. The only place you tend to see them patrolling in any frequency is shortlands to bickley/orpington (where they are unlikely to have too much aggro). All the places where you get the most grief are the places the REOs are experts at avoiding.

KingJ · 8 Sep 2019

There's some good comments by @millemille on this thread about the feasibility of returning the 365s to 3rd rail operation.

At first they seem like a good stop gap solution for a few years - time enough to sort the future of the franchise and get replacement stock etc in place. However, if their reintroduction in to 3rd rail land is going to need a significant amount of work then that might be a non-starter.

IceAgeComing · 8 Sep 2019

NorthKent1989 said:
It’s amazingly pathetic that one can travel across a large part of South London from Shortlands to Brixton for free.

My local stations at Greenwich and Blackheath are both major suburban stations, with Greenwich being an actual TfL interchange both still have no proper barriers, Greenwich is large enough to have them.

I struggle to see where you put them in Greenwich to cover everywhere - the main National Rail building sure but unless they staff that first to last then you have the gate to the side that's the access: but the DLR end has an underpass which people who don't need the station use and I don't see an easy way that you could segregate that with barriers in a way that's certain to be effective without having staff members have to stand in the open for hours on end which I can see being an incredibly undesirable shift to have in the middle of December when its 3 degrees and raining.

Chris M · 8 Sep 2019

NorthKent1989 said:
My local stations at Greenwich and Blackheath are both major suburban stations, with Greenwich being an actual TfL interchange both still have no proper barriers, Greenwich is large enough to have them.

Greenwich is certainly large enough to justify barriers, but I don't know where you'd put them - the subway is I believe a public right of way so you can't just block it off, and the stairs to platform 1 and lift to platform 4 don't actually join the subway anyway.

yorksrob · 8 Sep 2019

Aictos said:
HS1 goes to the right side of London, anyone wanting London Bridge can either use the classic routes or get a frequent TL from St Pancras to London Bridge.

It's a bit convoluted to get to Charing Cross though.

NorthKent1989 · 8 Sep 2019

yorksrob said:
It's a bit convoluted to get to Charing Cross though.

Exactly, CX is where people want to go because it’s at the heart of the West End, most of the West End is within walking distance from the station.

Kings Cross area is a whole different hub altogether

Aictos · 8 Sep 2019

yorksrob said:
It's a bit convoluted to get to Charing Cross though.

True but if the HS1 services are overcrowded it’s because it’s where people want to go hence the high demand.

Course nothing stopping you from going via the Classic routes to Charing Cross

Hadders · 8 Sep 2019

I spent a bit of time on various Southestern inner-suburban trains yesterday afternoon. Generally I found the trains in decent condition. I was surprised at the lack of barriers t the stations but then again this isn't really much different to what you see at inner-suburban stations on national rail in other parts of London

Metal_gee_man · 8 Sep 2019

ctrh136 said:
I do find that they have ticket inspectors at Brixton every so often. Not really sure how they can put in barriers on the northbound platform without a lot of cost!

Brixton is just not fit for purpose it hasn't been for many years, the single staircase northbound, up and down to street level creates huge bottlenecks at peak, regularly an On-Trak agency staff member is posted there during peak for safety reasons and it outside of peak its an uncomfortable station to use and should be fully rebuilt in my opinion encompassing the Overground line to Clapham Junction adding a stop to that and include access to the underground station, so in effect bringing the the two over-bridges through the area back together sadly taking a couple of buildings with it but creating a decent transport hub and not the bodge that currently exists

Horizon22 · 9 Sep 2019

Metal_gee_man said:
Brixton is just not fit for purpose it hasn't been for many years, the single staircase northbound, up and down to street level creates huge bottlenecks at peak, regularly an On-Trak agency staff member is posted there during peak for safety reasons and it outside of peak its an uncomfortable station to use and should be fully rebuilt in my opinion encompassing the Overground line to Clapham Junction adding a stop to that and include access to the underground station, so in effect bringing the the two over-bridges through the area back together sadly taking a couple of buildings with it but creating a decent transport hub and not the bodge that currently exists

There's a lot of SE (or SE served stations) that are hopelessly under-capacity now - Brixton, Denmark Hill (TL managed), Bromley South. Lewisham to a point - certainly infrastructure wise.

Aqua97 · 9 Sep 2019

bionic said:
These two posts sum SE metro operations up perfectly. Some parts of the network feel intimidating to passengers and can be downright dangerous at certain times. Train travel is effectively free in southeast London.

Not just to passengers, A driver colleague of mine had little darlings with T keys going through a train at plumstead opening cupboards messing about with major MCB's late one night. He couldn't move the train as they mucked up the doors and he couldn't move it. When he went back to rectify it, they were hanging around afterwards. They threatened to stab him. The signaller said it was about the fourth report that day of kids going through trains messing them up.

Horizon22 · 9 Sep 2019

Aqua97 said:
Not just to passengers, A driver colleague of mine had little darlings with T keys going through a train at plumstead opening cupboards messing about with major MCB's late one night. He couldn't move the train as they mucked up the doors and he couldn't move it. When he went back to rectify it, they were hanging around afterwards. They threatened to stab him. The signaller said it was about the fourth report that day of kids going through trains messing them up.

It is some leap though to blame SE for the growth in anti-social beahviour across some of the slightly more deprived areas (Woolwich line particular) of London. More could be done yes to stop ticketless travel with gatelines although some station infrastructure would need a big rethink.

Aqua97 · 9 Sep 2019

Horizon22 said:
It is some leap though to blame SE for the growth in anti-social beahviour across some of the slightly more deprived areas (Woolwich line particular) of London. More could be done yes to stop ticketless travel with gatelines although some station infrastructure would need a big rethink.

Since Abbey Wood got taken over by TFL, I believe it is gated from first to last train. And there is always staff there. However the scroats (i'm not apologising for using that term) will just walk back from Plumstead or Belvedere, I drive up the line and I hate going along there, scroats smoking behind the cab, drug dealing going on (it happens believe me) and the favourite at the moment seems to be pulling the passenger alarms and egresses and running away. There has been a sharp increase lately...

I'm sure other areas with metro operation aren't as bad as ours.
Just my opinion...

Horizon22 · 9 Sep 2019

Aqua97 said:
Since Abbey Wood got taken over by TFL, I believe it is gated from first to last train. And there is always staff there. However the scroats (i'm not apologising for using that term) will just walk back from Plumstead or Belvedere, I drive up the line and I hate going along there, scroats smoking behind the cab, drug dealing going on (it happens believe me) and the favourite at the moment seems to be pulling the passenger alarms and egresses and running away. There has been a sharp increase lately...

I'm sure other areas with metro operation aren't as bad as ours.
Just my opinion...

Well Abbey Wood has also had a hell of a load of investment and a new gateline put in prep for Crossrail. I'm sure if you did the same to all stations on the line there'd be a decrease. Let's also not forget its just been the summer holidays... I don't disagree but its not like these problems will be solved overnight or even solely by less ticketless travel.

The passenger alarms thing has been getting quite irritating over the last year, also don't think it helps they're quite easy to press on Networkers.

bionic · 9 Sep 2019

Aqua97 said:
drug dealing going on (it happens believe me)

I'm glad you said that. It's pretty blatant. I've seen what are clearly drug deals done a few times on the Orpington - Cannon Streets and especially on the North Kent. At Plumstead it's especially noticeable.

Another thing that was extremely prevalent a few years ago on the orpy - vics was drug users begging up and down the trains. That seemed to have tailed off a bit but its very much vogue now.

yorksrob · 9 Sep 2019

Aictos said:
True but if the HS1 services are overcrowded it’s because it’s where people want to go hence the high demand.

Course nothing stopping you from going via the Classic routes to Charing Cross

The reason services on HS1 are crowded has little to do with it going where people want to go (other than London generally being the preferred destination). It has to do with it being a fast service at the same time that the main line to Charing Cross has been substantially slowed down.

Aictos · 9 Sep 2019

yorksrob said:
The reason services on HS1 are crowded has little to do with it going where people want to go (other than London generally being the preferred destination). It has to do with it being a fast service at the same time that the main line to Charing Cross has been substantially slowed down.

If you want stations to the North or even Europe then HS1 is the best choice as those stations are quite close, the Classic lines are only of real use if you want the London Bridge area which is why HS1 offers a far superior service those days as there are more destinations and money to be made from passengers heading to Europe and the North then for those just travelling to the London Bridge area of which there are alternatives.

yorksrob · 9 Sep 2019

Aictos said:
If you want stations to the North or even Europe then HS1 is the best choice as those stations are quite close, the Classic lines are only of real use if you want the London Bridge area which is why HS1 offers a far superior service those days as there are more destinations and money to be made from passengers heading to Europe and the North then for those just travelling to the London Bridge area of which there are alternatives.

The West End encompasses a lot more than the London Bridge area. Charing Cross is the heart of the capital, and a competitively timed service will always be attractive.

Whilst its true that StP is handy for connections to the North, if I were travelling to Europe from Ashford, I'd be more inclined to travel East.

TrainBoy98 · 9 Sep 2019

It's not just the inner-London services. On a lot of the lines in Kent people just don't travel with tickets. They know which stations are gated and when, and avoid as they see fit. The guards seem to stay away - which I can understand, as a passenger I don't feel safe a lot of the time, and hate knowing I'm one of only a few people that even bother to pay.

Not that SE are to blame, but the anti-social behaviour is awful. At High Brooms, instead of using the subway, I see groups of people jumping on the the tracks and walking across them to the other platforms - risk to life be damned. But I've been tempted to do so (of course I wouldn't) having been confronted with a rather unsavoury group of people in said subway more than once.

Most are general issues, not SEs fault, vut Things need to be done about them

Aictos · 9 Sep 2019

yorksrob said:
Whilst its true that StP is handy for connections to the North, if I were travelling to Europe from Ashford, I'd be more inclined to travel East.

Not many services call at Ashford tho, there are far more Eurostar’s from St Pancras which is why HS1 is better even if you end up doubling back.

brad465 · 9 Sep 2019

TrainBoy98 said:
It's not just the inner-London services. On a lot of the lines in Kent people just don't travel with tickets. They know which stations are gated and when, and avoid as they see fit. The guards seem to stay away - which I can understand, as a passenger I don't feel safe a lot of the time, and hate knowing I'm one of only a few people that even bother to pay.

Not that SE are to blame, but the anti-social behaviour is awful. At High Brooms, instead of using the subway, I see groups of people jumping on the the tracks and walking across them to the other platforms - risk to life be damned. But I've been tempted to do so (of course I wouldn't) having been confronted with a rather unsavoury group of people in said subway more than once.

Most are general issues, not SEs fault, vut Things need to be done about them

On the Maidstone East line you get similar fare dodging (not seen trespassing though) as there are no gates anywhere between Charing and St Mary Cray. However RPIs at MDE are not uncommon, who I've seen catch a few or prevent free travel.

The most extreme dodging I've seen is jumping over the gateline at Waterloo on day 1 of SWR, I haven't seen it at SE terminals but won't surprise me if it happens.

yorksrob · 9 Sep 2019

Aictos said:
Not many services call at Ashford tho, there are far more Eurostar’s from St Pancras which is why HS1 is better even if you end up doubling back.

Well, that's a wasted opportunity in terms of connectivity from Kent to the continent.

But my point still stands that plenty want to go to the West end, and would do so via the mainline if it were decently timed.

jon0844 · 9 Sep 2019

Something needs to be done to protect revenue staff and allow them to do their job without fearing for their life (and quite obviously not getting involved, which in turn sends out the message that it's a free for all).

More regular blocks with police would perhaps help send out a message, and help reduce anti-social behaviour at the same time.

There are stations where staff don't issue penalties ever. It isn't considered safe, so it's a visual deterrent only. And clearly that doesn't work very well because people aren't stupid (even fare evaders) and with social media, it's even easier to share details of how to travel free.

ScotGG · 9 Sep 2019

ctrh136 said:
I do find that they have ticket inspectors at Brixton every so often. Not really sure how they can put in barriers on the northbound platform without a lot of cost!

That's the issue isn't it. Many other franchises would have upgrades at a zone 2 town centre site even if expensive but in SE land with constant short term extensions it's always too difficult/expensive. There are wider plans to rebuild the area and pedestrianised but will the boat be missed?

ScotGG · 9 Sep 2019

Horizon22 said:
It is some leap though to blame SE for the growth in anti-social beahviour across some of the slightly more deprived areas (Woolwich line particular) of London. More could be done yes to stop ticketless travel with gatelines although some station infrastructure would need a big rethink.

Same problem. Plumstead isn't gated and staff hours are limited. It would be easy to do as two entrances and one could be closed.

I don't think that line is worse than others for antisocial behaviour though having 80% of stations open does not help.

Kite159 · 9 Sep 2019

And even when the stations are gated, there is no point having the barriers unless they are in use all day. Even if that means paying extra for staff, which is where it falls down.

Horizon22 · 9 Sep 2019

brad465 said:
On the Maidstone East line you get similar fare dodging (not seen trespassing though) as there are no gates anywhere between Charing and St Mary Cray. However RPIs at MDE are not uncommon, who I've seen catch a few or prevent free travel.

The most extreme dodging I've seen is jumping over the gateline at Waterloo on day 1 of SWR, I haven't seen it at SE terminals but won't surprise me if it happens.

Oh it happens, particularly at Victoria but then again I would say every London terminal probably has some issue with the odd barrier-jumper from time to time.

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