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EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

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Carlisle

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We then leave by default with no deal on 31st October, albeit with total chaos due to the government being dysfunctional as a result of two months of turmoil and a busted majority. If I’m understanding
Boris has continually reassured us since he assumed power that he’s preparing fantastically for no deal, and (happy to be corrected) to do so in itself doesn’t require a majority , so if it all goes **** up, his government only has itself to blame, even if he’s paying folk a fortune as I write in a desperate attempt to deflect blame elsewhere
 
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nlogax

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The blame game is something Johnson and his co-horts have been working on for some time. The narrative will be - should the UK exit without a deal while under his stewardship - that it's the EU who refused to play ball, and that it's the EU who are to be framed as the villains and to blame for whatever mess the country finds itself in come November 1st.
 

krus_aragon

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There is a large and growing number of people who will never trying to keep us in tje EU and if we leave fight to get us back in as soon as possible.

These people may want it over but this is the beginning of years of a fight if we leave the EU.

Leaves fought for years to get us into this mess. Why on earth do you think we this who want to be in the EU are going to go quietly.
I think it would be equally correct to say:

"There is a large and growing number of people who will never stop trying to get us out of the EU and if we decide to stay will fight to get us out as soon as possible.

These people may want it over but this is the beginning of years of a fight if we don't leave the EU."

In short: people will continue to be angry whatever the end result.
 

Killingworth

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If we think an election or second referendum will solve this we're deluding ourselves.

The public is heartily sick of ALL politicians. We elect them to govern. They couldn't agree what to do so called a referendum. Pathetic, if they can't decide how are we supposed to know? The public said they were confused. 16 million wanted to stay, 17 million to leave, and 13 million registered voters didn't because they were totally confused. 18 million were then ineligible to vote. 2 million or more voters are now eligible to register, and many will have.

Although I strongly believe the deal we currently have is better than leaving, with or without a deal, all I hear suggests that the public either detests Corbyn or loathes Boris, but they'd vote for any deal to get things over with.

Corbyn is not a committed remainer (his brother thinks he's selling out) and it has shown in his performance. The Labour manifesto was to leave, so how can he support remain? How can the Labour party have credibility nationwide?

Barring a lot of last minute conversions LibDems are unlikely to take 50 seats in a general election. Their recent converts will be lucky to be re-elected in their current seats, and many of the Tory and Labour rebels will be retiring at the next election anyway. Corbyn is toxic. Boris is a buffoon.

It may all be decided by the 2016 Didn't or couldn't votes - and the totally fed up, curse on all your houses factions. I don't buy that all the young folks would vote remain.

Those who felt we should remain didn't convince a majority in 2016 and the opinion polls don't suggest a massive majority now, maybe the reverse.

We need to be careful what we wish for. An election now is likely to bring in more right-wing Tory elements, a surge in SNP support and a reduced number of (but more left wing) Labour members.

It's largely unpredictable from day to day - as Mrs May found to her cost!!

upload_2019-9-8_21-52-32.jpeg
 

Bantamzen

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Try Jon Worth’s Brexit flow diagrams. Studied at a superficial level you’d be forgiven for thinking it resembles coming out of an HS2 project plan, but stick with it.

https://jonworth.eu/brexit-what-next/

Latest version is from today. However, doesn’t take into account the recent statement from Verhofstadt which potentially muddies the waters even further.

Thanks for that, its very useful and perhaps is something that should have been used during the referendum campaign to help people better understand the consequences of all potential scenarios, though the current mess would have probably been way to difficult to flow!

Surely that wouldn’t pose an immediate problem. Boris requests the A50 extension and it is declined by Europe. We then leave by default with no deal on 31st October, albeit with total chaos due to the government being dysfunctional as a result of two months of turmoil and a busted majority. If I’m understanding things correctly that’s all quite feasible as things stand at present.

Of course Britain could revoke A50 entirely, but would anyone do that?

You talk about it as if it were just a minor detail, but any potential trade & economic issues as a result of crashing out would be far reaching and potentially very serious. This is the very centre of why we are where we are. I know the popular belief amongst hardcore leavers is that this is all an effort to derail Brexit entirely, and thus no deal would be fine, but the people looking closer at the fine details, projections and advice see a very difficult time ahead if we are daft enough to fall out with no deal. And those people come from both sides of the argument, not just remainers.

Which brings me neatly to this little gem:

Could that be because, like it or not, Johnson is reflecting quite a heavy body of public opinion?

You'll find all sorts of public opinions held by heavy bodies of the population, but that doesn't mean you have to follow every demand by the mob. Every indication is that no deal is by far the worst scenario for the UK & the EU. Indeed so much so, that it was barely discussed by the Leave campaign who instead promised the UK an "easy" deal. This hasn't happened for a multitude of reasons, but most of all because the Leave campaign frankly mis-sold Brexit. However, thankfully the reason we elect a Parliament is to take all those wants & needs that 65M+ people have, process them, discuss them, analyse them, debate them & try to find a balance between what people want, want people need, and what is practicable in the real world. For this reason referendum in this country are not legally binding, only legislation passed by Parliament backing the result of referendum is.

In all honesty, in the light of the 52-48 split, Cameron's government would have been well within their legal rights to say that they have considered the result, but believed that it was too close to call, and that no clear mandate on how to leave existed. They could then have chosen a second, more in depth referendum to decide this (which is what the referendum should have been in the first place), gone ahead with invoking A50, or simply said that it wasn't viable. The first and last options would have seen anger from leave supporters, but it would have been perfectly legal given that the country was obviously split on the subject.

What they chose to do as we all know was to go ahead with plans to leave, but without any clear mandate on how, with a pre-supposed timescale for negotiations though not one as to when to start them. However as time has gone on it has become more obvious that the lack of a coherent mandate from the off was the biggest problem of all, because no matter what deal has been presented, factions on either side of the argument have not agreed to it. This is in part because some of the facets such as the Backstop were simply not properly considered in the early scramble to convince people Brexit would be easy. So to some extent, those planning & campaigning for leave are to blame. They were simply too naïve, or worse simply were not prepared to present the full case to drive people's opinions on Brexit before the vote, and to focus both government & Parliament on negotiations and manage expectations. The Leave campaign, it's pledges, it's methodology, it's planning were flawed, as the last three years have shown.

And so now MPs, there to act as a buffer between "popular opinion" and reality, find that they cannot allow a no deal scenario through, and want more time to consider the options & explore new ones. That's how it is, that's how it should be, and frankly the Brexiteers jumping up and down demanding their shiny will just have to sit back and wait. Because we all know here that the moment anything goes wrong with their shiny, they will be the first ones to complain.

<Phew!>
 

edwin_m

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If we think an election or second referendum will solve this we're deluding ourselves.
That may be so, but what other way forward do you suggest?

A second referendum isn't necessarily incompatible with anyone's manifesto commitment because it's asking the people for an up-to-date view of what should be done next, rather than relying on a three-year-old opinion on something that now looks totally different. It wipes the slate clean and makes it more difficult for people to cite that debateable result as "the will of the people". It's far from ideal but it seems to me the only first step to a solution. Can you suggest something better?
 

nidave

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It amuses me that it’s all the fault of leavers, but never the several decades of membership leading up to it. Until 2016 I was never given a choice one way or other, had I been given that opportunity I would probably never have voted to join in the first place, and certainly would have wanted out rather sooner against a backdrop of tag lines like “ever closer union”.

Nonetheless I don’t think hurling blame around helps to further the current situation.
I am saying that thinking its going to be over is a mistake. Leavers have moaned and compained about the EU for years why should those who want to stay just shut up and not make our voices heard. It was fine for all the leavers for years
 

Bletchleyite

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That may be so, but what other way forward do you suggest?

A second referendum isn't necessarily incompatible with anyone's manifesto commitment because it's asking the people for an up-to-date view of what should be done next, rather than relying on a three-year-old opinion on something that now looks totally different. It wipes the slate clean and makes it more difficult for people to cite that debateable result as "the will of the people". It's far from ideal but it seems to me the only first step to a solution. Can you suggest something better?

The second referendum could also use AV or STV to establish what kind of Brexit is desirable (from the practical options available), rather than just whether we leave or not.

It would ideally be made legally binding to prevent the faff we've had.

The original referendum should really have been like this rather than a simple stay/go. Had it been I might have considered voting EEA/EFTA as my first choice rather than remain, FWIW.
 

najaB

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Johnson tells Varadkar no-deal Brexit 'would be a failure' (BBC)
A no-deal Brexit would be a failure that both the British and Irish governments would be responsible for, Boris Johnson has said.

The prime minister was in Dublin for his first meeting with Irish PM Leo Varadkar since he entered Number 10.

The government has confirmed Parliament will be suspended later after a vote on holding an early general election.

Opposition parties will not back the vote, meaning there will be no election in October as the PM had hoped.
The casting of blame continues...
 

dosxuk

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The original referendum should really have been like this rather than a simple stay/go

There has never been a consensus amongst the different leave factions as to what leaving the EU might consist of, and many of them used this to their advantage to make their support base appear larger. None of them would have agreed to a multiple choice referendum as it would have shown up how little support each of the individual options actually has. Likewise, none of them wanted a binding referendum as they wouldn't be able to claim it was invalid had they lost.

Over on the remain side, make the question really simple and then make one of the options really scary was the plan, and don't make it binding in case you need a get-out if leave somehow won.

Both groups agreed the question and the terms as both thought it gave them the best option of winning. Nobody thought about what was actually going to happen if leave were to pull off the win.

Why the first decision after the leave win wasn't to re-run with the different options, in order to judge which sort of brexit people could actually support I shall never understand.
 

Giugiaro

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The Portuguese news outlets already assume Brexit will happen without a deal and that's what Boris is going for.
Not sure if it is fear mongering or not, but the assumption is pretty consistent.
 

krus_aragon

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I think it's pretty clear that Boris is after no deal, the only question is why?
Because whatever happens, Boris Johnson can't remain Prime Minister (and actually govern) without going to the people and getting a majority. That's been the case since the summer.

On that basis, his over-riding objective has been to gain enough popular support for his party so that he can call an election and get that majority.

The way in which the EU issue is resolved (or otherwise) will affect people's view of him and his Conservative Party, relative to other parties. If he could get the UK out of the EU on his schedule (by hook or by crook), the electoral threat from the Brexit Party would disappear, making a Conservative majority much easier.
 

Bantamzen

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I think it's pretty clear that Boris is after no deal, the only question is why?

Because his supporters, by which I mean his backers plan to bet against British company share prices? Crashing the economy would be an almost sure fire way to predict an event you can speculate for or against. All my own opinion of course...
 

najaB

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Because his supporters, by which I mean his backers plan to bet against British company share prices? Crashing the economy would be an almost sure fire way to predict an event you can speculate for or against.
Oh, it could never be that. Not from Boris "Taking back sovereignty" Johnson.
 

DarloRich

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An interesting speech from the outgoing speaker - it is clear we are in the midst of a constitutional crisis where parliament ( the sovereign legislature) is seen as an enemy of the executive ( the PM) and that the executive is not answerable to Parliament. This is worrying for our future.
 

dosxuk

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So Bercow will be gone and his successor appointed by the time of the next election, so that's another pair of nails into the coffin of Cumming's plan. He can't kick the speaker out and gain an extra seat, and he won't be able to get a brexit/erg-tory majority to appoint the new one to be more friendly to them.
 

DarloRich

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I also note that Irish PM Leo Varadkar gave De Piffle a good going over in their join press conference. Johnson clearly missed the reference to Hercules & Athena. I thought Johnson had a classical education!

( Hercules went mad, murdered his wife and children but was knocked out by Athena before he could kill his earthly father thus limiting the damage. It could also be that Athena helped Hercules perform several of his 12 labours. She gave him the noise makers needed to scare of the birds in one but i prefer the first option ;) )
 

bramling

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So Bercow will be gone and his successor appointed by the time of the next election, so that's another pair of nails into the coffin of Cumming's plan. He can't kick the speaker out and gain an extra seat, and he won't be able to get a brexit/erg-tory majority to appoint the new one to be more friendly to them.

Putting aside any views on Brexit, I think getting rid of Bercow is no bad thing at all. To me it’s unacceptable to have a speaker expressing a clear view on a given issue, which Bercow has very much done. On top of that he comes over very badly IMO. I remember he was extremely rude and condescending to a female relative some years ago, pretty much along the lines of as a woman you should know your place.

Hopefully someone better can be found.
 
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nlogax

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Bercow was excellent. It's a shame he's going. It's completely acceptable for the Speaker to have a clear view on the sovereignty of Parliament, and to defend the right of MPs to have a say in the mechanisms of how this country is governed. I like how he comes across and he's changed the Commons for the better during the last decade.

Hopefully someone similar can be found.
 

bramling

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Bercow was excellent. It's a shame he's going. It's completely acceptable for the Speaker to have a clear view on the sovereignty of Parliament, and to defend the right of MPs to have a say in the mechanisms of how this country is governed. I like how he comes across and he's changed the Commons for the better during the last decade.

Hopefully someone similar can be found.

I don’t have a problem with the speaker attempting to uphold sovereignty of parliament, but in my view he’s way overstepped that in other ways, not least his clear and stated opposition to no deal - which is government policy and essentially manifesto commitment. He’s clearly lost the respect of many Conservative MPs, which in my book is a failure to discharge the role.
 

Doppelganger

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I don’t have a problem with the speaker attempting to uphold sovereignty of parliament, but in my view he’s way overstepped that in other ways, not least his clear and stated opposition to no deal - which is government policy and essentially manifesto commitment. He’s clearly lost the respect of many Conservative MPs, which in my book is a failure to discharge the role.
You mean you don't support his views and you are an advocate of Brexit and you see him as a threat to that.

I am glad Bercow has moderated Parliament and added the correct level of scrutiny needed otherwise the hard Brexiteers would have been running roughshod, as indeed they are trying to right now.
 

nlogax

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He’s clearly lost the respect of many Conservative MPs, which in my book is a failure to discharge the role.

Bilge. He's lost the 'respect' of many Conservative MPs because he's not letting them get their own way. Even at this late stage before tonight's prorogation you may note the extremely suspicious nature of both the prorogation decision itself and of the details allegedly contained within the full Yellowhammer reports. Regardless of your views about Brexit, I'm sure you'd appreciate efforts to ensure that such a major decisions of national importance following on from the referendum are conducted correctly and with full transparency. Yes?
 

edwin_m

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The second referendum could also use AV or STV to establish what kind of Brexit is desirable (from the practical options available), rather than just whether we leave or not.

It would ideally be made legally binding to prevent the faff we've had.

The original referendum should really have been like this rather than a simple stay/go. Had it been I might have considered voting EEA/EFTA as my first choice rather than remain, FWIW.
The minimum requirement as far as I'm concerned is that the people have the chance to decide based on the facts. That means the option(s) put forward must be fully defined and the campaign should be honest. Unfortunately no-deal will have to be amongst the choices, along with remain, and maybe May's deal or EEA/EFTA if it looks like they command a reasonable amount of support.
I don’t have a problem with the speaker attempting to uphold sovereignty of parliament, but in my view he’s way overstepped that in other ways, not least his clear and stated opposition to no deal - which is government policy and essentially manifesto commitment. He’s clearly lost the respect of many Conservative MPs, which in my book is a failure to discharge the role.
No deal is not a manifesto commitment. The manifesto was to seek an orderly exit and the voters' response was to take away May's majority, so hardly a ringing endorsement.

If you oppose a Speaker taking a line which upholds the rights of the Commons against the executive, arguably in breach of the unwritten conventions of our "constitution", then you must also oppose an unelected prime minister breaching other conventions by threatening to delay an election in response to a no-confidence vote, proroguing Parliament. Not to mention apparently threatening to defy the law.
 
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