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Passenger carriages on mail/parcels trains - Recollections.

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Ken H

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Some recollections of night trains in the 1970;s-1980's

First one was a London - Deal train that I caught on one of the Ian Allan Network south East days. It was rammed to the cantrail! Cl 73, a half brake (I think) and a few vans. Think it went from Charing Cross - I walked from Euston to the Southern Region station it went from.

Earlier, me and 2 mates decided to go climbing in Snowdonia. No-one had a car - we were 18 - so it was the trains. One of us worked so we had to leave on a friday evening.

There was a leeds-Crewe night train then. Think it started at York. So we went to get that. It was the only through train that did Stockport-Stalybridge. That dumped us at crewe in the small hours.
in one of the north facing bays there was a train portion including a compartment coach. this was the Holyhead train. So we got on with our gear amd my mates tried to sleep. Me, I went to watch the railway.

The other portion came in, and reversed to couple up. That was when a bloke had to go down between the vehicles and connect up the brake pipe and RCH jumpers. I have seen the shunter lift the buckeye to convert the coach from screw coupling to buckeye. Maybe it was there.

Thrash along North Wales to Bangor, then walk to the clock to get the early morning bus to Nant Peris. I wonder what the guard though about 3 blokes in a compartment in sleeping bags. The small one in the luggage rack!

Climbing on the big cliffs in N Wales was a big step up from Almscliffe and Cow and Calf. We did Spiral Stairs. You start on a ledge with no view downwards. you traverse to the left and suddenly there is a 200' drop beneath your feet.
 
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yorksrob

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A lot of these services sound as though they would be quite handy, had they survived.
 

Dr Hoo

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I can think of a couple of occasions when I was a local Southern Region Manager when empty newspaper or parcels workings making their way back towards London (which typically included a passenger brake van) were hastily converted into ad hoc passenger workings to the next junction to cover for cancellations as a strictly local initiative. They wouldn’t be going all the way to Waterloo, Victoria or wherever on the way back, of course. “Got to get my b****y flags out” grumbled one guard.
 

70014IronDuke

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Some recollections of night trains in the 1970;s-1980's

First one was a London - Deal train that I caught on one of the Ian Allan Network south East days. It was rammed to the cantrail! Cl 73, a half brake (I think) and a few vans. Think it went from Charing Cross - I walked from Euston to the Southern Region station it went from.

Earlier, me and 2 mates decided to go climbing in Snowdonia. No-one had a car - we were 18 - so it was the trains. One of us worked so we had to leave on a friday evening.

There was a leeds-Crewe night train then. Think it started at York. So we went to get that. It was the only through train that did Stockport-Stalybridge. That dumped us at crewe in the small hours.
in one of the north facing bays there was a train portion including a compartment coach. this was the Holyhead train. So we got on with our gear amd my mates tried to sleep. Me, I went to watch the railway. .....

I'm a bit confused by this thread. Are you referring to parcels trains , ie Class 3 trains, which carried passenger vehicles on which you might unofficially hitch a ride, or Class 1 passenger trains which in fact were run more for the parcels/newspaper traffic, and so only had the odd passenger vehicle?
 

6Gman

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in one of the north facing bays there was a train portion including a compartment coach. this was the Holyhead train. So we got on with our gear amd my mates tried to sleep. Me, I went to watch the railway.

The other portion came in, and reversed to couple up. That was when a bloke had to go down between the vehicles and connect up the brake pipe and RCH jumpers. I have seen the shunter lift the buckeye to convert the coach from screw coupling to buckeye. Maybe it was there.

Thrash along North Wales to Bangor, then walk to the clock to get the early morning bus to Nant Peris. I wonder what the guard though about 3 blokes in a compartment in sleeping bags. The small one in the luggage rack!

Not unusual I suspect !

The 02xx train from Crewe was known as the "Mel Bach" (Small Mail) locally. Unusual passengers were the norm; ordinary passengers would seem unusual!

Used it once. My uncle needed to pick up his car from Bangor. Used the Mel Bach to Bangor, back to Crewe in the car (a young me as company); back in time for breakfast. About 1967 because as we drove into Wrexham we saw withdrawn Standard steam locos stored at Croes Newydd.
 

LMS 4F

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When stationed at Castlemartin in 1965 we went home for a long Bank Holiday weekend on a Friday evening. I seem to recall changing at Swansea from Pembroke and we got a parcels train which had one coach, a Mk1 with compartments, for passengers. It was full and I spent the night in the guards area sat on his seat.
The route was via Gloucester and we got into Paddington about 0430.
On the return I and a colleague spent the night in Carmarthen waiting room but that's another story.
 

AndrewE

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I'm a bit confused by this thread. Are you referring to parcels trains , ie Class 3 trains, which carried passenger vehicles on which you might unofficially hitch a ride, or Class 1 passenger trains which in fact were run more for the parcels/newspaper traffic, and so only had the odd passenger vehicle?
There's no point in trying to be more specific. Mail trains were class 1, and lots had passenger accommodation, e.g. the York mail which once ran through to Aberystwyth, but latterly terminated at Salop, I think, 1 BCK and lots of vans and a TPO. Others like the Up and Down [WCML] Specials were TPO only. Maybe that's why they were "Special!"
On the Southern I think there were newspaper trains which might have had a passenger coach or two, but to my mind were really special because they had just about every type of traction you could imagine in the same train (EMU, DEMU, cl 33 and cl 73, maybe even a MLV - but perhaps I am deluding myself about that bit) dropping off portions at junctions along the way and all driven only from the front cab throughout

A lot of these services sound as though they would be quite handy, had they survived.
They were, but unfortunately the York-Salop (which might even have come from further NE once upon a time) left York around 8pm! Not much good for an evening out... unlike 1A00 on the WCML, not a mail train but the up Barrow sleeper, I think it left Wigan at about 2345, just right for a trip home after an evening out, but for some reason my memories are a bit hazy!
 

Ken H

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I'm a bit confused by this thread. Are you referring to parcels trains , ie Class 3 trains, which carried passenger vehicles on which you might unofficially hitch a ride, or Class 1 passenger trains which in fact were run more for the parcels/newspaper traffic, and so only had the odd passenger vehicle?
They were in the GBTT so were advertised passenger trains. No idea what class they were. I would assume they would be a 1 or maybe 2. There was no Realtimetrains then to look up 'headcodes'!
There was a Huddersfield -Whitehaven TPO too with a passenger vehicle.
 

Ken H

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There's no point in trying to be more specific. Mail trains were class 1, and lots had passenger accommodation, e.g. the York mail which once ran through to Aberystwyth, but latterly terminated at Salop, I think, 1 BCK and lots of vans and a TPO. Others like the Up and Down [WCML] Specials were TPO only. Maybe that's why they were "Special!"
On the Southern I think there were newspaper trains which might have had a passenger coach or two, but to my mind were really special because they had just about every type of traction you could imagine in the same train (EMU, DEMU, cl 33 and cl 73, maybe even a MLV - but perhaps I am deluding myself about that bit) dropping off portions at junctions along the way and all driven only from the front cab throughout

They were, but unfortunately the York-Salop (which might even have come from further NE once upon a time) left York around 8pm! Not much good for an evening out... unlike 1A00 on the WCML, not a mail train but the up Barrow sleeper, I think it left Wigan at about 2345, just right for a trip home after an evening out, but for some reason my memories are a bit hazy!


Um. maybe the train I got from leeds was going further than Crewe. Need someone with a 1974 GBTT to look it up! Sorry, cant remember. We had beer.
 

30907

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Um. maybe the train I got from leeds was going further than Crewe. Need someone with a 1974 GBTT to look it up! Sorry, cant remember. We had beer.
2150 York - Shrewsbury or Aber, cant remember when it was cut back.

On the Southern I think there were newspaper trains which might have had a passenger coach or two, but to my mind were really special because they had just about every type of traction you could imagine in the same train (EMU, DEMU, cl 33 and cl 73, maybe even a MLV - but perhaps I am deluding myself about that bit) dropping off portions at junctions along the way and all driven only from the front cab throughout
None of the paper trains involved DEMU or EMU stock mixed with ordinary coaches (think there would have been braking compatibility issues!) though I think you are right about the MLV (not plus passenger though).
A single BSK for most of them, though I think one of the Bournemouth line trains had 3 coaches in the electric era and the Yeovil was 5 or 6.
 

Peter Mugridge

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They did, however, convey mail on passenger EMUs with a section closed off, as recently as the class 455s. I recall 30 years ago regularly sharing my train back from work ( Epsom to Stoneleigh ) with a couple of dozen mailbags, some of which were even loaded at Epsom - this being around 17.45 in the evening!
 
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Yes, the 'York Mail' ran York - Shrewsbury during the 70s and early 80s - it ran via Ashton Moss Jcn E between Stalybridge and Stockport because of weight restrictions on the viaducts on the direct line via Guide Bridge. These were later strengthened for the new Trans Pennine service via Piccadilly. It also had a Manchester Victoria portion with seating accomodation - BCK and vans - detached / attached at Stalybridge. The TPO was in the Shrewsbury portion. It was great as a student night out from Manchester to the Stalybridge buffet which stayed open until the arrival of the return York Mail if there were enough punters. In the days of a 2300 closing time, alchohol may still have been partaken - so I'm told. Another interesting train at that time was from Manchester Piccadilly to Grimsby around 0200 for newspapers and mail, but also with seating accomodation. 'Northern' editions of national newspapers were still printed in Manchester then, and it always went from Platform 12 at Piccadilly. This had a cab road (where the moving walkway to Platforms 13/14 now is) to allow the newspaper road vans to unload the various editions 'hot off the press'.
 

AndrewE

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2150 York - Shrewsbury or Aber, cant remember when it was cut back.
Maybe leaving the pub - or brother's house - in time to catch the 2150 seemed indecently early in the '70s and '80s. I'm sure there were none of the alehouses currently worth visiting near the station back then...
None of the paper trains involved DEMU or EMU stock mixed with ordinary coaches (think there would have been braking compatibility issues!) though I think you are right about the MLV (not plus passenger though)...
I am sure that the 33s and 73s (and the 4-tcs) were completely compatible with all the Southern EMUs with EPB braking. So I agree, no ordinary Mk I coaching stock could have been involved, but that generation of (SR) trains did have the capability of all their mixed traction working in multiple. I think I must have seen it either on a Special Notice that somehow came to us on the LMR, or read about it in an internal document.
 
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Ash Bridge

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2150 York - Shrewsbury or Aber, cant remember when it was cut back.

Yes, that was always the departure time when I used it, last time being around 1975ish I think the headcode was 1M41. It was still running around 1979-80 when it occasionally produced a Deltic as far as Stockport, but from (a hazy) memory I don't think it lasted beyond the mid eighties.
 

PeterC

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I remember the outbound mail from Aberystwyth when I was at university. It departed early evening at a very convenient time to get to Borth which had a student hostel in those days.

A few years later my parents purchased a chalet on a holiday development on the site of the old army camp at Bronaber between Dolgellau and Ffestiniog. Borrowing it for a holiday in the 70s we made the overnight trip Euston - Crewe - Llandudno Junction - Blaenau Ffestiniog with mail bags and newspapers following us at each change. The final leg on a Crossville bus was accompanied by a bundle of newspapers which were dropped outside the newsagents in Trawsfynydd.
 

Czesziafan

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I am sure I read somewhere that SR newspaper trains had a BSK specifically for the use of homegoing print workers when the papers were still in Fleet Street.
 

Czesziafan

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There's no point in trying to be more specific. Mail trains were class 1, and lots had passenger accommodation, e.g. the York mail which once ran through to Aberystwyth, but latterly terminated at Salop, I think, 1 BCK and lots of vans and a TPO. Others like the Up and Down [WCML] Specials were TPO only. Maybe that's why they were "Special!"
On the Southern I think there were newspaper trains which might have had a passenger coach or two, but to my mind were really special because they had just about every type of traction you could imagine in the same train (EMU, DEMU, cl 33 and cl 73, maybe even a MLV - but perhaps I am deluding myself about that bit) dropping off portions at junctions along the way and all driven only from the front cab throughout

They were, but unfortunately the York-Salop (which might even have come from further NE once upon a time) left York around 8pm! Not much good for an evening out... unlike 1A00 on the WCML, not a mail train but the up Barrow sleeper, I think it left Wigan at about 2345, just right for a trip home after an evening out, but for some reason my memories are a bit hazy!

Where is Salop? Never heard that name
 

Mag_seven

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During the 80's I travelled on 1S81 the 20.50 Carlisle - Perth service on a number of occasions. Monday to Friday it consisted of one (maybe two?) mail vans plus a couple of mark 1 passenger vehicles. It was hauled by an AC electric to Mossend Yard where a diesel loco would take over. On Saturday evenings it still ran but minus the postal vehicles i.e. loco plus load 2! Some pretty awesome accelerations resulted particularly on the departure from Lockerbie!
 

30907

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I am sure that the 33s and 73s (and the 4-tcs) were completely compatible with all the Southern EMUs with EPB braking. So I agree, no ordinary Mk I coaching stock could have been involved, but that generation of (SR) trains did have the capability of all their mixed traction working in multiple.
Indeed they did, and there were regular booked workings on the SWDivision which have been the subject of several threads over the years, but this is OT.
 

Ken H

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2150 York - Shrewsbury or Aber, cant remember when it was cut back.


None of the paper trains involved DEMU or EMU stock mixed with ordinary coaches (think there would have been braking compatibility issues!) though I think you are right about the MLV (not plus passenger though).
A single BSK for most of them, though I think one of the Bournemouth line trains had 3 coaches in the electric era and the Yeovil was 5 or 6.
a 'classic' DMU could haul vacuum braked stock. I got a DMU from Scunthorpe to Donny and it was hauling a parcels van. Both the DMU and the parcels van had screw couplings.
I assume a classic DMU vehicle could also be included in a vacuum braked train. Didnt they use a DMU driving vehicle on some scenic train in Scotland somewhere?
 

BRX

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a 'classic' DMU could haul vacuum braked stock. I got a DMU from Scunthorpe to Donny and it was hauling a parcels van. Both the DMU and the parcels van had screw couplings.
I assume a classic DMU vehicle could also be included in a vacuum braked train. Didnt they use a DMU driving vehicle on some scenic train in Scotland somewhere?
The observation car on the kyle line? It was converted from a DMU but not used to drive the train from.

https://www.railcar.co.uk/data/vehicle/6300
 

d9009alycidon

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During the 80's I travelled on 1S81 the 20.50 Carlisle - Perth service on a number of occasions. Monday to Friday it consisted of one (maybe two?) mail vans plus a couple of mark 1 passenger vehicles. It was hauled by an AC electric to Mossend Yard where a diesel loco would take over. On Saturday evenings it still ran but minus the postal vehicles i.e. loco plus load 2! Some pretty awesome accelerations resulted particularly on the departure from Lockerbie!

Yes Indeed, many happy memories of that train, a regular1970s summer Friday evening activity would be train from Coatbridge to Glasgow then out to Carstairs on the peak hour EMU, an evening at the station then up to the pub for a couple of pints, couple of cans then into the pocket and back down to the station for 1S81 back to Coatbridge Central. The two coaches worked south during the day as part of a parcels service, but that was a class 5 and didn't allow passengers.
 

jimm

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Yes, that was always the departure time when I used it, last time being around 1975ish I think the headcode was 1M41. It was still running around 1979-80 when it occasionally produced a Deltic as far as Stockport, but from (a hazy) memory I don't think it lasted beyond the mid eighties.

There's a blog post at the link below about the York-Shrewsbury-Abeystwyth trains, which says the passenger coach was removed from the formation in May 1988, with the train then lasting as a post-only TPO into the 1990s. I don't know whether its demise coincided with the end of the Huddersfield-Workington TPO, which last ran in September 1991.

https://mancunian1001.wordpress.com...-journeys-york-to-shrewsbury-and-aberystwyth/
 

Ash Bridge

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There's a blog post at the link below about the York-Shrewsbury-Abeystwyth trains, which says the passenger coach was removed from the formation in May 1988, with the train then lasting as a post-only TPO into the 1990s. I don't know whether its demise coincided with the end of the Huddersfield-Workington TPO, which last ran in September 1991.

https://mancunian1001.wordpress.com...-journeys-york-to-shrewsbury-and-aberystwyth/

Many thanks for this jimm. Very interesting indeed and I never realised it lasted quite that long either; something else I recall is that on arrival at Leeds City the Peak or Class 47 (40 on occasion) would uncouple from the train whilst more vans were added (Class 31 in my experience) the main loco then backed onto the front and the double headed formation set of for the Pennines with a protracted call at Huddersfield enroute to Stalybridge. It was here that the main train engine once again detacted and allowed the Manchester Victoria portion to depart with the second locomotive, after this the loco reattached and took the original (as from York) portion forward to Stockport where it was replaced by a class 8x electric for the journey forward to Crewe.
 

alistairlees

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Another useful couple were:
22.52 Waterloo - Weymouth (I think) which was a 73 to Eastleigh then a 33 forwards (and was vans and passenger accommodation); this connected at Southampton with the
01.55 Southampton - Bristol Temple Meads, which I don't think was advertised by the mid 80s but invariably had a passenger coach in it (and was class 33 all the way, sometimes via Eastleigh and Chandlers Ford)

This was in 1985 if I recall. Not sure how much longer either lasted.
 

AndrewE

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I am sure I read somewhere that SR newspaper trains had a BSK specifically for the use of homegoing print workers when the papers were still in Fleet Street.
I suppose a few (or lots of) standard MkI vehicles could have been marshalled behind a final class 33 or 73 at the tail of the train, when the loco would still be controlled from the front cab but nothing further back needed the power control signals.

It's an old name for Shrewsbury (or Shropshire).
and still very common as an imprecise abbreviation for both or either. One click to Wikipedia would have shown anyone "Shropshire (/ˈʃrɒpʃər, -ʃɪər/; alternatively Salop;"
 

Taunton

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I've written here before about summer nights at Taunton in the 1960s, when there were plenty of these trains, obviously both directions but I just seem to recall mostly the Down workings, probably because those were the ones I went to meet (once I was old enough) relatives etc returning from overseas who had got into London too late for the last daytime service, which was the 18.30 "Mayflower". After that there were two of these substantial overnights, one got to Taunton at about 2am and the other at 4am. These were the heaviest trains of the day, particularly the first one that had several Royal Mail TPO cars, then several vans, and then passenger vehicles. They were actually the last steam workings for the Kings on the WofE, into 1962, and even when not meeting them the blast of their departure, getting a good run at Wellington bank, echoed halfway across the sleeping and otherwise silent town, and into my bedroom.

Summer Friday nights and both were duplicated, unadvertised I think but regular, with an advance section, passenger stock only, so if you were going to meet someone you had to wait for both portions.

The TPO with it's bright red vehicles and big gold "Royal Mail" was an impressive sight rolling in, it needed the full platform length and the Western driver would pass the platform entrance still at a good speed, brakes hard on, as all the postmen and westbound mailbags were right up at the west end. The platform night porters were a bit further back and dealt with the parcels vans. The few alighting passengers fended for themselves. Through the compartment windows the lights were on Dim and there were sufficient vehicles, except on those summer Fridays, for many to put the armrests up and stretch full length.

Then there were The Newspapers. The first came down the Berks & Hants at Cornish Riviera speed, another late King turn, and was first stop Newton Abbot and then right into Cornwall. The second was the one that served, among others, Taunton and Exeter. From my earliest recollections this was always a diesel. These were not advertised, and were actually privately chartered by the newspaper publishers, but they had at least one BCK, and maybe another coach, at the back, and apparently if you were Pleasant to the guard at Paddington you could get in. Sailors were a principal user, headed back to Plymouth, and the guard kindly ensured the officers were put in the Firsts so the men in the Seconds would not be embarrassed. Plymouth guard - he had probably once done his stint in the Navy as well.
I am sure that the 33s and 73s (and the 4-tcs) were completely compatible with all the Southern EMUs with EPB braking. So I agree, no ordinary Mk I coaching stock could have been involved.
I believe they could; a Class 33 could be in the middle, EP emu in front, vacuum braked Mk 1 hauled stock or even vans behind, all controlled from the emu driving position at the front, the Class 33 (and 73) in the middle having an air/vacuum brake translator. Someone will be along soon with all the technical detail, I'm sure. After steam finished in 1967 all the remaining SR Mk 1 stock had electric train heating for this. Inter-regional stock had to be dual heat.
 

crosscity

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The parcels trains were very useful if you needed to travel overnight. In my teens I needed to get to University open days from West Yorkshire to London and Brighton in 1974. There was a Leeds-KX which arrived in London before the Underground started up, giving plenty of time to freshen up ready for interview. I caught the same train three times in as many weeks - always a Class 47 with a few Mark I compartments. The school hardship fund paid for the tickets.

The best overnight journey was my last one. I was job-searching four years later and had to get from Halifax to Kirkcaldy for a 9am interview. There was a 2030 (or thereabouts) KX-Edinburgh, which left York at midnight-ish. I presume it was a newspaper train. It had Mark I compartments, and very few passengers. I had the compartment to myself next to the engine, dimmed the lights, drew the blinds and lay across the four seats with the window open. In and out of sleep being gently swayed over points and listening to the hum of the Deltic at the front was heaven. I think it took four or five hours to get to Edinburgh - I didn't want it to end! Fittingly it was my last Deltic-hauled journey on the ECML. I didn't get the job, but it was sure worth going to the interview - and the Company paid for the ticket.
 

eastwestdivide

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I believe they could; a Class 33 could be in the middle, EP emu in front, vacuum braked Mk 1 hauled stock or even vans behind, all controlled from the emu driving position at the front, the Class 33 (and 73) in the middle having an air/vacuum brake translator. Someone will be along soon with all the technical detail, I'm sure.
That might be technically possible, but I haven't seen much evidence of it actually taking place, especially on a regular turn. The series of newspaper/van trains run by the SR out of Victoria/Waterloo in the early hours (0200-0300 departures more or less) were essentially parcels-type stock with mostly a single BSK in the formation.

From the 1978 timetable, mostly denoted with a [2] for 2nd class only in the column header:
0140 Waterloo-Yeovil Junction 0440
0245 Waterloo-Bournemouth 0524, MO portion for Portsmouth Harbour 0533, MX 0428 Eastleigh-Portsmouth Harbour 0533
0330 Victoria-Eastbourne 0528
0330 Victoria-Tonbridge-Folkestone Central 0558
0300 Victoria-Ramsgate 0538, connecting into an 0450 Faversham-Dover Priory 0550
 
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