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Transport Investigations prosecuting me

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hazard321

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6 Sep 2019
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nuneaton
Last month i was travelling from Leicester to Nuneaton on a CrossCountry Train. I had bought the ticket on Trainline which i rarely use. As normal i scanned my ticket to get through the gate at the Leicester train station and boarded the train. During the journey i had a look on the trainline app to see what time I would get to Nuneaton. I discovered there was an option to refund the ticket even though I had already scanned and used the ticket and the train was already moving. In my head i wondered why this was an option and clicked the button out of curiosity expecting nothing to happen (looking back i know how stupid this sounds). To my surprise it gave me a partial refund which confused me as it doesn’t make sense for there to be an option to refund a used ticket. The instructor then came along and asked me to show my ticket to which i explained the situation. He never gave me the chance to pay for a new ticket which is what i thought would happen. Instead he got took a photo of the refunded ticket and got me to fill out a form with my details and said i would receive a letter in a weeks time.

I had received this letter a couple of weeks ago and it basically asked me to email them my side of the story and offer any mitigation that i wish to be considered. This letter states that i could be charged with either Railway Byelaws (2005) or The Regulation of Railways Act 1889). I replied to the first letter saying i apologise and asking if this can be settled out of court with me paying for all the costs of this case so far. I mentioned its my first offence and how a criminal record will affect me as i will be finishing my last year of university and will be applying for jobs soon.

Last week i received a second letter stating they have noted my comments however they see no reason to why this matter should not proceed as previously advised. They have given me 14 days to allow me to comment further before this matter proceeds. In the second letter they haven't clearly mentioned which law they are going to be prosecuting me with however have mentioned "The company is entitled to consider whether a charge of intent to avoid a fare could be alleged". I have already written up the second letter i want to send to them but just wanted to see if anyone can give me advice on what to write.

So far have mentioned how
-i have never refunded tickets before and am willing to send screenshots of past journey
-There wasn't intent to avoid the fare as i explained truthfully what happened and was willing to buy another ticket if given the option to
- How its a genuine mistake and I would never purposely risk obtaining a criminal record for the sake of saving £8
- Again asked if it can be settled out of court
-How the incident is very out of character and don't want a split second decision to ruin my future
-I have mentioned how i understand that the responsibility to have a valid ticket lies with me and i understand how my actions impact CrossCountry financially
 
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WesternLancer

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Apols, I don't use them but so I can't offer advice much advice on this, hopefully others will pitch in to help you.

But it seems very daft that you could access the barrier and then be able to refund some or all of the ticket - on a late night cross country train on that route when I've traveled there was never any sign of the gaurd coming round to check tickets - so what would there be to stop people pressing refund towards the end of their journey and getting money back, or as they stepped off the train, and could not be caught? Seems like a recipe for all sorts of revenue protection problems.

What I can say however is not to buy tickets from The TrainLine, they will highly likely be charging you commission. If you travel with cross country, buy your tickets from them.

Good luck getting this sorted.
 

Spurs

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86
-There wasn't intent to avoid the fare as i explained truthfully what happened and was willing to buy another ticket if given the option to

Unfortunately for you, that isn't how this works. Intent is judged by your actions, and only has to be present at one point, not throughout the journey. Your action of refunding the ticket, knowing that you did not have any alternative ticket or authorisation to travel, is likely to demonstrate clear intent, at that moment, to avoid your fare. It may well be the case that you no longer intended to avoid your fare once the inspector appeared, but this is irrelevent - you had already committed the offence, including intent, even if that intent was only momentary.

Somebody will likely help you draft a letter. The bad news is that you do look to be guilty of a criminal offence. The good news is that there is still a possibility they'll agree to settle out of court, either in response to this letter or even if you approach the prosecuter at court on the day. Additionally, a record for this offence would generally only show on a standard DBS check for 12 months - notable exceptions being if you need an enhanced or security check (e.g. you apply to work with children/other vulnerable people, or to a job requiring UK security clearance), if you commit further offences in the future, or if you plan on travelling to certain countries (most notably the United States of America). And even in that 12 month period, many employers may be willing to consider you despite this offence so long as you're honest about it.
 

some bloke

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If you upload the draft, and perhaps your first letter, people on here may spot aspects that could be improved.

You might like to clarify a couple of things:

They may think "if you didn't intend to avoid the fare, what was your plan for paying the balance if you were never asked to show a ticket and didn't encounter closed barriers?". Being willing to pay if someone else actively offers the opportunity doesn't exclude the possibility that the passenger, at some stage, intended to take an opportunity not to pay if it arose.

Is there a special reason why you suggest a conviction could ruin your future?
 

hazard321

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6 Sep 2019
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16
Location
nuneaton
Once i had refunded the ticket and spent a few minutes realising what i had just done i had seen that there was a railway revenue protection staff making his way down the train so i intended on telling him what happened and expecting him to make me pay for another ticket. However when he did speak to me he never gave me the option to pay for another ticket as he straight away made me fill out a form after me telling him what happened. Also now looking back i never actually verbally offered to pay at that point as i was waiting for him to say i could.

This could ruin my future as i will be finishing university this year and will be applying for many job where i would have to declare this conviction ruining my chance of getting offers
 

hazard321

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16
Location
nuneaton
This is what i written in my first letter

I am very worried after receiving your letter and wanted to sort the matter out as soon as possible. I am extremely sorry that this incident occurred and hope you will accept my most sincere apologies. I am a student and don’t want this stupid mistake to have any negative impact of me in the future.

I would like to ask if we can settle this out of court and I offer to pay any outstanding fare plus any administration costs you have incurred as a result. I have always paid for my tickets however my stupidity and curiosity got the better of me that day. After scanning my ticket to get through the gate at the Leicester train station and boarding the train I looked on the trainline app what time I would get to Nuneaton. This is where I discovered there was an option to refund the ticket even though I had already scanned and used the ticket. I wondered why this was an option and clicked the button out of curiosity expecting nothing to happen. To my surprise it gave me a partial refund which confused me as it doesn’t make sense for there to be an option to refund a used ticket. I knew straightaway after doing this I made a mistake and couldn’t rectify it as the train already was moving meaning I couldn’t buy anther ticket. It wasn’t my intention to travel without a ticket and I hope you can see this. If my intent was to travel without a valid ticket surely, I wouldn’t have bought a ticket in the first place.

I accept that I did not have a valid ticket, but please ask you to consider that this was a first offence and a genuine mistake. I can assure you that this will not happen again. Taking this into consideration, I would again like to ask if you would kindly accept a settlement of the outstanding fare plus any administration fees you have incurred as a result. Please accept my sincerest apologies for the irritation and inconvenience caused by myself.

And this is what i have written out so far for the second

Thanks for your response, I understand that the responsibility to have a valid ticket at all times when travelling lies with me.

Again, I am writing to express a sincere apology for the situation described in your letter. I know what I did was wrong and i assure you that I am feeling deeply ashamed and embarrassed with this situation. I will certainly learn from the experience and will never let it happen again.


I would like to express that I had no intent to avoid the fare because I had already bought a ticket before stepping on the train. After realising the mistake I made, I could see the instructor was making his way down the train to me. I was hoping I would be able to explain to him the situation and buy a new ticket however I wasn’t given the option to buy one. The fact that I complied with the instructor truthfully hopefully shows you that I never had the intention to lie and attempt to avoid the fare. I also wish you understand that I wouldn’t intentionally risk obtaining a criminal record for the sake of saving £8.45.

I would also like to point out I have no previous offences whatsoever. This incident was very much out of character and I would hate for this stupid, split-second decision to impact my future so severely as I will be finishing university this year and will be applying for many jobs soon. Can I please ask you again if there is any way that this incident can be settled without going to court. I will gladly pay a financial settlement to compensate you for the time you have spent on this case.

It’s not a decision I have made previously nor is it one I will make again and I deeply regret my actions. If I’m welcome to, I am willing to send you screenshots of past journeys to prove this. Additionally, after researching the matter, I have realised how much money rail companies lose from fare evasion and I am disappointed in myself for contributing to this problem.
 

Haywain

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14,874
It sounds like you are dealing with Transport Investigations Ltd, who are noted for never settling after the first letter. So, send a second letter setting out much of what you said the first time round and there is a fair chance that you will then get an offer to settle the matter.
 

hazard321

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Messages
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Location
nuneaton
It sounds like you are dealing with Transport Investigations Ltd, who are noted for never settling after the first letter. So, send a second letter setting out much of what you said the first time round and there is a fair chance that you will then get an offer to settle the matter.

Yes i can confirm it is Transport Investigations Ltd and i also noticed this when browsing through similar posts. I really hope they offer settlement as i have been stressing over the outcome of this situation all week.
 

WesternLancer

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Can anyone enlighten how this would work in practice though (ref this trainline refund) would you not be liable for the £10 admin fee - which would be pointless on a ticket the OP says costs £8.

Is this another daft Trainline thing whereby they make it look like you could get a refund which in reality yoy don't get - they take the admin fee, but you are then left with no ticket that is valid to show the inspector?

[Off peak day single seems to be £12.45 but the OP may have a railcard ]
 

WesternLancer

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6,996
This is what i written in my first letter

I am very worried after receiving your letter and wanted to sort the matter out as soon as possible. I am extremely sorry that this incident occurred and hope you will accept my most sincere apologies. I am a student and don’t want this stupid mistake to have any negative impact of me in the future.

I would like to ask if we can settle this out of court and I offer to pay any outstanding fare plus any administration costs you have incurred as a result. I have always paid for my tickets however my stupidity and curiosity got the better of me that day. After scanning my ticket to get through the gate at the Leicester train station and boarding the train I looked on the trainline app what time I would get to Nuneaton. This is where I discovered there was an option to refund the ticket even though I had already scanned and used the ticket. I wondered why this was an option and clicked the button out of curiosity expecting nothing to happen. To my surprise it gave me a partial refund which confused me as it doesn’t make sense for there to be an option to refund a used ticket. I knew straightaway after doing this I made a mistake and couldn’t rectify it as the train already was moving meaning I couldn’t buy anther ticket. It wasn’t my intention to travel without a ticket and I hope you can see this. If my intent was to travel without a valid ticket surely, I wouldn’t have bought a ticket in the first place.

I accept that I did not have a valid ticket, but please ask you to consider that this was a first offence and a genuine mistake. I can assure you that this will not happen again. Taking this into consideration, I would again like to ask if you would kindly accept a settlement of the outstanding fare plus any administration fees you have incurred as a result. Please accept my sincerest apologies for the irritation and inconvenience caused by myself.

And this is what i have written out so far for the second

Thanks for your response, I understand that the responsibility to have a valid ticket at all times when travelling lies with me.

Again, I am writing to express a sincere apology for the situation described in your letter. I know what I did was wrong and i assure you that I am feeling deeply ashamed and embarrassed with this situation. I will certainly learn from the experience and will never let it happen again.


I would like to express that I had no intent to avoid the fare because I had already bought a ticket before stepping on the train. After realising the mistake I made, I could see the instructor was making his way down the train to me. I was hoping I would be able to explain to him the situation and buy a new ticket however I wasn’t given the option to buy one. The fact that I complied with the instructor truthfully hopefully shows you that I never had the intention to lie and attempt to avoid the fare. I also wish you understand that I wouldn’t intentionally risk obtaining a criminal record for the sake of saving £8.45.

I would also like to point out I have no previous offences whatsoever. This incident was very much out of character and I would hate for this stupid, split-second decision to impact my future so severely as I will be finishing university this year and will be applying for many jobs soon. Can I please ask you again if there is any way that this incident can be settled without going to court. I will gladly pay a financial settlement to compensate you for the time you have spent on this case.

It’s not a decision I have made previously nor is it one I will make again and I deeply regret my actions. If I’m welcome to, I am willing to send you screenshots of past journeys to prove this. Additionally, after researching the matter, I have realised how much money rail companies lose from fare evasion and I am disappointed in myself for contributing to this problem.

Correct your typo - Instructor / Presumably 'Inspector'
 

najaB

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In my head i wondered why this was an option and clicked the button out of curiosity expecting nothing to happen (looking back i know how stupid this sounds). To my surprise it gave me a partial refund which confused me as it doesn’t make sense for there to be an option to refund a used ticket.
I haven't used the Trainline app, but I assume that it took at least two clicks to refund the ticket: one to say 'Refund' and another to 'Confirm' (or similar)? If so it makes it difficult to accept that this was a totally innocent mistake.
 

hazard321

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Location
nuneaton
Has anyone got any advice for my second letter, it would be very much appreciated as i want to send it off tommorow.
 

hazard321

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6 Sep 2019
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Location
nuneaton
Yeah najab i understand that from their perspective this is what it looks like and its going to be hard to fight against. So thats why i have written in the 2nd letter that i accept i made a mistake and am in the wrong and have
I haven't used the Trainline app, but I assume that it took at least two clicks to refund the ticket: one to say 'Refund' and another to 'Confirm' (or similar)? If so it makes it difficult to accept that this was a totally innocent mistake.
again apologised
 

some bloke

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Write exactly - briefly - what you did, so they don't have to refer to the first letter to see what you are apologising for.

You might address these, which they may have in mind:

"Why is it reasonable for us to believe that when you decided to request the refund, you didn't intend to profit from it if it worked?"

"Why is it reasonable to believe that, after it worked, you at no stage intended to get away with it if the opportunity arose?"

The question I asked above about specific problems for your career takes into account what you said about applying for jobs. Many people might say, or at least think, the same kind of thing about their case - the point is whether you are applying for unusual kinds of job. If there are special considerations then it could be useful to be specific.
 
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hazard321

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nuneaton
Write exactly - briefly - what you did, so they don't have to refer to the first letter to see what you are apologising for.

You might address these, which they may have in mind:

"Why is it reasonable for us to believe that when you decided to request the refund, you didn't intend to profit from it if it worked?"

"Why is it reasonable to believe that, after it worked, you at no stage intended to get away with it if the opportunity arose?"

I have added this. If there was no instructor on the train, I can assure you I would have spoken to someone at the station in Nuneaton as I know I was wrong and could never walk away with a clear conscious knowing what I did.

The question I asked above about specific problems for your career takes into account what you said about applying for jobs. Many people might say, or at least think, the same kind of thing about their case - the point is whether you are applying for unusual kinds of job. If there are special considerations then it could be useful to be specific.

I have included that i will be applying for jobs in the finance industry
 

WesternLancer

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I still don't understand how these Trainline 'refunds' could work / ever be viable to be offered on fairly modest fee (given the £10 admin fee)
do Trainline not charge the admin fee or the fee in full?

I guess that is a question for someone more familiar with the Trainline - I just can't see how it makes any sense to permit refunds of tickets so easily, because as I say, why wouldn't anyone simply apply for one as their journey came to an end / stepped off the train.

Am I missing something here?

Is this linked to the e-ticket problems issues others have raised on the Forum before (sorry can't find thread) relating to validating / 'activating' an e-ticket?

ie the sort of Refund details given on page 21 here.
https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/National Rail Conditions of Travel.pdf
 

some bloke

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The risk of problems for employment from a minor conviction may be much less than you think. You might ask the student advice service and the careers service.

[Edit: I posted that before seeing the reply above on jobs in finance, which may have only appeared afterwards; my responses to that are below.]
 
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WesternLancer

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Write exactly - briefly - what you did, so they don't have to refer to the first letter to see what you are apologising for.

You might address these, which they may have in mind:

"Why is it reasonable for us to believe that when you decided to request the refund, you didn't intend to profit from it if it worked?"

"Why is it reasonable to believe that, after it worked, you at no stage intended to get away with it if the opportunity arose?"

The question I asked above about specific problems for your career takes into account what you said about applying for jobs. Many people might say, or at least think, the same kind of thing about their case - the point is whether you are applying for unusual kinds of job. If there are special considerations then it could be useful to be specific.

With the 2nd question the OP could say they 'might reasonably expect to find that they could not leave the station / operate the exit barriers at Nuneaton' - if it has barriers? - without a valid ticket.
 

some bloke

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the OP could say they 'might reasonably expect to find that they could not leave the station / operate the exit barriers at Nuneaton' - if it has barriers? - without a valid ticket.

They could say it, but it would be in the context of other factors. The question includes "if the opportunity arose". A person who intended to ensure they paid might want to concentrate more on that rather than on something that would prevent evasion.
 

sauron2010

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Yes i can confirm it is Transport Investigations Ltd and i also noticed this when browsing through similar posts. I really hope they offer settlement as i have been stressing over the outcome of this situation all week.

i have very recent experience with TIL, they dont even read any of the letters you send them, but have a go and if all else fails on court day have a quite word with the prosecutor as i did and offer them settlement out of court, if he/she is reasonable they will agree to settle out of court, in my case he did and put my straight onto a payment line and i paid with my debit card there and then, best of luck with it.
 

some bloke

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I have included that i will be applying for jobs in the finance industry

If it's important then consulting a solicitor may be an option. Some offer free initial consultations.

If you did have an intention at any point to let pass the opportunity to pay, then you might reconsider your response. They could be more willing to settle after an admission than after a story that they think is unlikely.

a record for this offence would generally only show on a standard DBS check for 12 months

It's the "basic" check that only shows unspent convictions; the "standard" check is the one above that.

https://www.gov.uk/dbs-check-applicant-criminal-record
 

hazard321

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i have very recent experience with TIL, they dont even read any of the letters you send them, but have a go and if all else fails on court day have a quite word with the prosecutor as i did and offer them settlement out of court, if he/she is reasonable they will agree to settle out of court, in my case he did and put my straight onto a payment line and i paid with my debit card there and then, best of luck with it.

Thanks for this it has given me hope that it can still be settled up till the court day if it goes that far. Was there anything specific you said to the prosecutor on the day
 

sauron2010

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Thanks for this it has given me hope that it can still be settled up till the court day if it goes that far. Was there anything specific you said to the prosecutor on the day

nothing specific, just had a polite word with him explained my side of the story and offered to pay whatever the costs etc are to avoid court, it was almost like he understood people being dragged through court for this kind of thing was a bit much, its your first time which they will know and it should work in your favor, it all depends on the prosecutor on the day but well worth trying.
 

WesternLancer

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Thanks for this it has given me hope that it can still be settled up till the court day if it goes that far. Was there anything specific you said to the prosecutor on the day
I would still send your second letter. Good chance they will want you to settle before court, esp as 1st offence, as that is perhaps more efficient for them, and you have nothing to loose by doing that.
 

sauron2010

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I would still send your second letter. Good chance they will want you to settle before court, esp as 1st offence, as that is perhaps more efficient for them, and you have nothing to loose by doing that.


second that, exhaust all options before court.
 

Master29

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Can anyone enlighten how this would work in practice though (ref this trainline refund) would you not be liable for the £10 admin fee - which would be pointless on a ticket the OP says costs £8.

Is this another daft Trainline thing whereby they make it look like you could get a refund which in reality yoy don't get - they take the admin fee, but you are then left with no ticket that is valid to show the inspector?

[Off peak day single seems to be £12.45 but the OP may have a railcard ]
But would it not work that way with any TOC as well given this is standard practice throughout whether over or under a tenner? As you point out it`s pretty daft on a ticket that is under a tenner and a pretty stupid idea to enable a click option on the eticket at the same time. One of many reasons most members here never use the Trainliars.
 
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