Help please- summons to court

Hello everyone, after your views on the following incident that I have summarised below:

@10.01 boarded train- travelling on from Telford central to Birmingham New Street. I boarded the train in a rush and went to purchase ticket via trainline app, as I have done on many occasions previously

@10.03 - Approached by a ticket inspector who asked for ticket, I explained I was in the process of buying on the app

@10.08- Inspector took details, cautioned me and said letter to follow in the post, despite me continuously stating it was my intention to purchase online.

@10.09- Inspector read his notes aloud and asked me to sign the incident form, which I did. Noted on the incident form is that I stated clearly my intention to buy the ticket online.

@10.12- After the Inspector left, I proceeded to buy the ticket via the app, as was my original intention, and continued to travel. Proof of purchase via the app (along with all previous journeys).

I received a letter from Transport Investigations Limited- purpose of the letter was to advise of proposed action (considering whether to issue a summons for court proceeding regarding an offence against railways byelaws (2005) or The Regulation of Railways Act 1889. The letter also provided an opportunity for me to outline any mitigation to be considered. I had 21 days to respond.

I naively didn’t respond to the letter - didn’t know what to do and didn’t ask anyone for help. And so I received a summons to court. The charges to be heard by the Magistrates Court are:

1-did travel upon the railway and failed to obtain a ticket or pay the fare due before travelling on a train

2-did travel, or attempt to travel upon the railway without having previously paid the fare and with intent to avoid payment thereof

The summons outlines 3 options:

1- accept the evidence and plead guilty and ask court to deal with case in my absence (being able to submit a statement of mitigating circumstances that I request the court to take into account).

2-accept the evidence and plead guilty in person at court, with or without a solicitor

3-plead not guilty which will lead to adjournment until a later date.

Having gone to citizens advice bureau, I am now even more worried as did not realise the severity of the charge i.e upto £1000 fine plus a criminal conviction.

Being a 2nd year university student this is very likely to jeopardise any chance I have of getting 1 year work placement, which is compulsory for the course that I am studying.

In mitigation:

• I have always purchased tickets and have a paper record alongside trainline app record of numerous previous journeys from Telford to Birmingham
• there was no intent whatsoever to avoid a fare. It is actually impossible given there are barriers in operation at Birmingham New Street so physically could not have bypassed at the destination. Have always bought a ticket.
• The inspector approached me within a minute or so of me boarding the train giving me no opportunity whatsoever to complete the online app purchase (or even find the train guard to purchase on board) which I made clear I was in the process of doing my app purchase.

I know that technically I would be guilty i.e. did not have a ticket before boarding.
However, the intent was there to buy a ticket. Any views welcome in terms of what I should do and the chances of me avoiding a criminal record and hefty fine.

Do you think there is any merit in trying to ask the Transport company to drop/ settle out of court- having read some previous threads this doesn't seem likely?

Thanks for reading

i have just been trough a similar experience with TIL very recently, was between telford-shrewsbury, they are hell bent on prosecutions in wales of late. I ended up at Telford magistrates where i spoke to the prosecutor and he agreed to settle out of court, definitely explore this possibility at court either way.

Toni said:

• The inspector approached me within a minute or so of me boarding the train giving me no opportunity whatsoever to complete the online app purchase (or even find the train guard to purchase on board) which I made clear I was in the process of doing my app purchase.

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Others will be along to address many of the other points but it's worth clearing this up immediately.

As you have briefly alluded to, where facilities exist to purchase prior to boarding, it is an offence to board the train without a valid ticket. You cannot simply board the train then try and purchase a ticket. As you also say you boarded the train in a rush, this may suggest you were running late? Unfortunately for you, this also isn't a valid defence.

What day did this take place? As there would have been a ticket office open at that time on Monday-Saturday but would have only just opened on a Sunday. However, there is also a ticket vending machine where a ticket could have been purchased.

sauron2010 said:

i have just been trough a similar experience with TIL very recently, was between telford-shrewsbury, they are hell bent on prosecutions in wales of late. I ended up at Telford magistrates where i spoke to the prosecutor and he agreed to settle out of court, definitely explore this possibility at court either way.

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sorry for my naivety but how did you manage this? As in did you have a solicitor who approached the prosecutor just before the hearing?

Darandio said:

Others will be along to address many of the other points but it's worth clearing this up immediately.

As you have briefly alluded to, where facilities exist to purchase prior to boarding, it is an offence to board the train without a valid ticket. You cannot simply board the train then try and purchase a ticket. As you also say you boarded the train in a rush, this may suggest you were running late? Unfortunately for you, this also isn't a valid defence.

What day did this take place? As there would have been a ticket office open at that time on Monday-Saturday but would have only just opened on a Sunday. However, there is also a ticket vending machine where a ticket could have been purchased.

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yes completely agree that its unlikely to be deemed a valid defense. It was during the week and the ticket office was open.

Toni said:

sorry for my naivety but how did you manage this? As in did you have a solicitor who approached the prosecutor just before the hearing?

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no i did not have a solicitor, i turned up to court 30 mins before my hearing, i asked the clerk who the prosecutor was and if it was ok if i spoke with him, i proceeded to have a polite chat with the prosecutor explained my side of the story(very brief) and offered to pay whatever fine/costs etc to avoid court to which he agreed, he then put me put me straight onto a phone line to pay with card, hope this helps.

Whilst you could consider the court options and offering to settle on the day - it is probably worth writing ASAP to show contrition and offering to resolve the matter before it goes to court (ie the sort of response you could have sent when TIL wrote to you originally, when you were not sure how to respond). Include the proof that you DID buy the ticket and state you never had any intention of not doing so, as you have explained.

As you are a student - try getting advice from your Student Union advice place if they have one, tho I note you have sensibly had help from CAB already.

sauron2010 said:

no i did not have a solicitor, i turned up to court 30 mins before my hearing, i asked the clerk who the prosecutor was and if it was ok if i spoke to him, i proceeded to have a polite chat with the prosecutor explained my side of the story(very brief) and offered to pay whatever fine/costs etc to avoid court to which he agreed, he then put me put me straight onto a phone line to pay with card, hope this helps.

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that's really helpful, thanks. Guess I shall try that as a last resort but in the first instance write to TIL. Completely understand if you'd like to keep confidential, but any details you can give as to the background to your case and the level of settlement would be useful to know..

It's also against the Trainline terms to buy after boarding - see 4.7:
https://www.thetrainline.com/terms
So you could add "I am now aware" of that.

Toni said:

this is very likely to jeopardise any chance I have of getting 1 year work placement

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Could you be more specific about what information you have on that?

WesternLancer said:

Whilst you could consider the court options and offering to settle on the day - it is probably worth writing ASAP to show contrition and offering to resolve the matter before it goes to court (ie the sort of response you could have sent when TIL wrote to you originally, when you were not sure how to respond). Include the proof that you DID buy the ticket and state you never had any intention of not doing so, as you have explained.

As you are a student - try getting advice from your Student Union advice place if they have one, tho I note you have sensibly had help from CAB already.

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noted- I'll write a letter today as you've suggested and then even if they reject it, I can at least show i've tried and outline that to the prosecutor on the day as a last resort.

Toni said:

that's really helpful, thanks. Guess I shall try that as a last resort but in the first instance write to TIL. Completely understand if you'd like to keep confidential, but any details you can give as to the background to your case and the level of settlement would be useful to know..

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Not at all, boarded at telford to shrewsbury without ticket, approached by revenue staff on board, i offered to buy a ticket which he refused, i explained to him i cant be avoiding fare as shrewsbury is barriered and they sell tickets at the barrier all day long as well as on board trains, he wasent interested and read me my rights etc, received letters from TIL to which i responded giving my version of events and also offered settlement out of court, both letters where ignored and i was summoned to court, bizarre thing is i was offering £200 for settlement in my letters to TIL which were refused but settled for £168 with prosecutor on court day.

sauron2010 said:

not at all, boarded at telford to shrewsbury without ticket, approached by revenue staff on board, i offered to buy a ticket which he refused, i explained to him i cant be avoiding fare as shrewsbury is barriered and they sell tickets at the barrier all day long as well as on board trains, he wasent interested and read me my rights etc, received letters from TIL to which i responded giving my version of events and also offered settlement out of court, both letters where ignored and i was summoned to court, bizarre thing is i was offering £200 for settlement in my letters to TIL which were refused but settled for £168 with prosecutor on court day.

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wow- that's a very good outcome! I take it you responded to the summons to say you'd be pleading Not Guilty and that you'd be defending in court. I was thinking of taking a solicitor to give me the best possible chance but given the added cost of this may just go solo or take a family member at least to help plead the case to the Prosecutor prior to the hearing..

Toni said:

wow- that's a very good outcome! I take it you responded to the summons to say you'd be pleading Not Guilty and that you'd be defending in court. I was thinking of taking a solicitor to give me the best possible chance but given the added cost of this may just go solo or take a family member at least to help plead the case to the Prosecutor prior to the hearing..

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no i did not respond to the summons at all(you dont have to)and it keeps them guessing. i just turned up to court on my day/time. taking a solicitor may be advisable as they can perform the verbal gymnastics but its not essential.

Whilst it might seem unfair not to be able to buy through the app on board, to allow it would be a fare dodgers dream. Jump on board and only start the ticket purchase process if you see a member of staff. If you don't then it's a free ride, especially if you are leaving at an ungated station. Whilst that might seem unfair to someone who is in your situation, the problem the railway has is deciding who looks like a fare dodger and who looks like someone who has made a genuine mistake. As we've seen from some very high profile cases, well to do professional people are not immune from fare dodging, even if the consequences for them can be much greater in terms of loss of employment.

I do wonder whether when staff check mobile tickets they also check what time they were issued to spot potential fraud.

While you are dealing with the legal procedure, you also need to find out how serious this will be for you. As you are a student, going to talk to your Students' Union is a very good idea. Not only will they know what is likely to happen with courts in your area, but they will probably be able to advise on what line your institution (and employers who take placements from your instutution) take on convictions for not paying your train fare.

i very much welcome train apps as most passengers undoubtedly do and hopefully buying tickets will become even easier as time goes by. we are living in 2019 after all, paper tickets should have gone a decade ago. in the age of driver less cars and phone payment some people still want the old fashioned ticket office with a cashier printing bits of paper in exchange for coins, unfortunately for some tech is moving forward and everything is becoming more and more automated, thankfully this trend will only continue to grow.

Toni said:

wow- that's a very good outcome! I take it you responded to the summons to say you'd be pleading Not Guilty and that you'd be defending in court. I was thinking of taking a solicitor to give me the best possible chance but given the added cost of this may just go solo or take a family member at least to help plead the case to the Prosecutor prior to the hearing..

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And bear in mind ref this that I think in terms of the strict definition of the offence you probably ARE guilty - in that as I understand it the offence isn't about whether you did or did not intend to buy a ticket, the offence is that you stepped on a train without such a ticket (going by your outline of what you did) having been past opportunities to buy one (a ticket office and a ticket machine). The fact you were in a hurry and would have missed the train had you stopped to get a ticket is little or no mitigation since the response of the prosecutor would probably be that you should have got to the station early enough to do that or be prepared to wait for a later train.

So, stage 1, I would suggest that you consider taking the actions I suggested in post #7, but thinking about how you deal with the court as a stage 2 if stage 1 does not work, where they still might allow you to settle without the matter going further, but you can not guarantee that will be an outcome - as I am sure you appreciate.

You will not be the 1st person who has 'ignored' TILs letters up until the court threat, after all.

Good luck with it.

sauron2010 said:

no i did not respond to the summons at all(you dont have to)and it keeps them guessing. i just turned up to court on my day/time.

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While this approach worked for sauron2010, I'm not sure that it's the best advice.

When you've been picked up for fare evasion, things happen in a given order: you're asked for your side of the story, you may be given a second chance to say why you shouldn't be prosecuted, you are charged and either go to court or plead guilty by post. If you plead guilty or are found guilty, you are punished by a fine.

At any of these stages up to appearing in court, the railway can decide that they're not going to carry on with the prosecution. That might be because you have agreed an out of court settlement where you pay them some money. But the important thing is that once a stage has been passed, you can't go back to it and have another go. So there's a lot to be said for engaging with the process, and trying to settle things at the earliest possible stage. If, like sauron2010, you choose to leave it until appearing at court, you may be successful - but if for whatever reason the prosecutor will not agree a deal at that point, then you have no choice but to appear in court.

My advice would be not to leave it to the last minute. Talk to the railways (and Transport Investigations Ltd, who work for them) and try and get things resolved as early as possible.

Toni said:

I know that technically I would be guilty i.e. did not have a ticket before boarding.

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As has been pointed out already, that's all that matters for a Byelaw prosecution to be successful. You had an opportunity to purchase before boarding (e.g. the ticket machine/office, using the app before you got to the station) and didn't take advantage of it.

Fawkes Cat said:

While this approach worked for sauron2010, I'm not sure that it's the best advice.

When you've been picked up for fare evasion, things happen in a given order: you're asked for your side of the story, you may be given a second chance to say why you shouldn't be prosecuted, you are charged and either go to court or plead guilty by post. If you plead guilty or are found guilty, you are punished by a fine.

At any of these stages up to appearing in court, the railway can decide that they're not going to carry on with the prosecution. That might be because you have agreed an out of court settlement where you pay them some money. But the important thing is that once a stage has been passed, you can't go back to it and have another go. So there's a lot to be said for engaging with the process, and trying to settle things at the earliest possible stage. If, like sauron2010, you choose to leave it until appearing at court, you may be successful - but if for whatever reason the prosecutor will not agree a deal at that point, then you have no choice but to appear in court.

My advice would be not to leave it to the last minute. Talk to the railways (and Transport Investigations Ltd, who work for them) and try and get things resolved as early as possible.

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i have to make some corrections here, no one is saying or has said wait till court date before making a move, and i personally did not leave it til my court date which i have already explained in previous posts above, i made numerous attempts to settle with TIL before the court summons which were all ignored/refused. my word with the prosecutor at court was my last throw of the dice.

sauron2010 said:

i very much welcome train apps as most passengers undoubtedly do and hopefully buying tickets will become even easier as time goes by. we are living in 2019 after all, paper tickets should have gone a decade ago. in the age of driver less cars and phone payment some people still want the old fashioned ticket office with a cashier printing bits of paper in exchange for coins, unfortunately for some tech is moving forward and everything is becoming more and more automated, thankfully this trend will only continue to grow.

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I have never bought a ticket via a phone, app or by e-mail. I have never bought a (rail) ticket at a TVM.

Why?

Because the tickets I need can only be obtained at a face-to-face transaction.

The face-to-face element also means I can clarify any relevant issues (such as peak/off-peak details).

You may be happy with an app (or 'appy perhaps) but please don't deny the rest of us an option which suits.

Toni said:

Hello everyone, after your views on the following incident that I have summarised below:

In mitigation:

• 
  
• there was no intent whatsoever to avoid a fare. It is actually impossible given there are barriers in operation at Birmingham New Street so physically could not have bypassed at the destination. Have always bought a ticket.

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Three points:
1. Although the staffing seems more consistent these days, there may be times when the barriers are unmanned;
2. It may be possible to "short fare" by claiming to have come from elsewhere;
3. There may be ... shall we say alternative routes to leave some stations (not sure about New Street, but certainly the case elsewhere).

"I couldn't be trying to avoid the fare because there are barriers" is a weak line.

sauron2010 said:

i very much welcome train apps

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I’ve nothing against technology as long as it doesn’t result in reduced passenger rights or flexibility but a quick glance of the Disputes and Prosecutions section of the forum will reveal that they don’t and won’t solve many of the problems out there.

In fact there’s a lot to be said for the old fashioned paper ticket....

6Gman said:

Three points:
1. Although the staffing seems more consistent these days, there may be times when the barriers are unmanned;
2. It may be possible to "short fare" by claiming to have come from elsewhere;
3. There may be ... shall we say alternative routes to leave some stations (not sure about New Street, but certainly the case elsewhere).

"I couldn't be trying to avoid the fare because there are barriers" is a weak line.

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All three apply at New Street.

Toni said:

1-did travel upon the railway and failed to obtain a ticket or pay the fare due before travelling on a train

2-did travel, or attempt to travel upon the railway without having previously paid the fare and with intent to avoid payment thereof

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It is worth noting that I doubt they would have sufficient evidence to convict you of the second charge. Specifically, they would need evidence that you intended to avoid paying the fare and I the act of attempting to pay for the fare via the App would be evidence against this. They might argue in court that you would not have paid if you had not seen the guard but as long as you didn't on the day provide evidence to support this argument, then I'd have thought that in court they would struggle to make this case. I suspect that they are only bringing this charge because they didn't receive a response to their first letter.

6Gman said:

"I couldn't be trying to avoid the fare because there are barriers" is a weak line.

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Agreed.

Fawkes Cat said:

My advice would be not to leave it to the last minute. Talk to the railways (and Transport Investigations Ltd, who work for them) and try and get things resolved as early as possible.

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Also agreed. Speaking to the prosecutor in court is a good last minute idea but ideally you'd get this resolved earlier and save yourself the stress of the court trip!

Some people seem to assume that we all have smart phones and have APPS ( whatever they are ! ) to enable us to buy tickets .

Unfortunately there are large number of people , me included that do not have a smart phone and millions more , especially older people who have no idea about all this new tech

Therefor the suggestion that paper tickets should done away with is ludicrous and selfish.

Paper tickets have the advantage that the battery can`t go flat and is less likely to fall down a toilet,


Graham

graham11 said:

Some people seem to assume that we all have smart phones and have APPS ( whatever they are ! ) to enable us to buy tickets .

Unfortunately there are large number of people , me included that do not have a smart phone and millions more , especially older people who have no idea about all this new tech

Therefor the suggestion that paper tickets should done away with is ludicrous and selfish.

Paper tickets have the advantage that the battery can`t go flat and is less likely to fall down a toilet,


Graham

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I'm sure that the OP will find your 'advice' really constructive and helpful.