TOD collection problem: return portion not printed

yorkie · 18 Aug 2019

Yesterday a customer attempted to print a return ticket, purchased from the TPE website, at Mount Vernon station.

The outward portion printed fine, but the return portion did not. The TVM stated an error had occurred. The Help Point at the station advised the customer to see ticket office staff at a staffed station and they would be able to assist.

The customer sought assistance from both ticket offices at Glasgow Central station; neither was able to assist.

Last I checked the internal KnowledgeBase stated the following under the ToD section, specifically section 5 regarding the specific scenario of "5. Some, but not all tickets are printed/part printed"

iKB said:
Duplicate tickets can only be issued if a ToD CTR reference number can be supplied and the CTR successfully recalled for ticketing. Any part printed tickets must be handed over by the customer.

If there is a print failure during ticket printing at the SSTVM, a message will appear on the screen advising the customer to collect their tickets from the Ticket Office.

a) Collect from the customer all the tickets that were printed.
b) If possible, recall the CTR and check the status of the ToD booking using a TIS.
c) If the CTR cannot be recalled by the ticket office TIS, station staff should use the Live Sales Management (LSM) Console to review the status of the ToD booking.
d) If the LSM Console displays the status of the CTR as set to ‘P’ (print failure) the users of some TIS may be able to over-ride this status and re-issue the full set of tickets.
e) If the LSM Console reports the status as ‘Locked’ then;
(a) Users authorised to unlock CTRs should request an ‘Unlock’ using the LSM console.
(b) Users not authorised to unlock CTRs should call the LSM helpdesk. Requests to unlock CTRs will be managed by Smart421’s technical support team. The service is available seven days a week between the hours of 08:00 and 18:00 and can be contacted on 0845 120 5499.
When calling the LSM Helpdesk, station staff must have the following information available in order to proceed.
1. Name
2. Location (Station).
3. Answer to a secret question which has been defined by the TOC.

Unlocking should allow the ToD to be recalled and the tickets issued.
f) Ask the customer to complete Parts 1 & 2 of a ToD Duplicate Tickets Record Form.
g) If possible, check how many tickets were printed, using the SSTVM Supervisor Terminal. Keep evidence of this and submit with the operator’s balance sheet at the end of the shift.
h) If there is more than one journey booked under a single CTR, then the operator must select the ticket/tickets to be issued.
i) Complete Part 3 of the ToD Duplicate Tickets record Form with the details of the tickets issued.
j) Ask the customer to sign the ToD Duplicate Tickets Record Form in Part 4.
k) Provide the authorisation in Part 5.
l) Give the complete set of new tickets to the customer.
m) Mark the part printed tickets as cancelled and attach to the ToD Duplicate Tickets Record form.
n) Retain the ToD Duplicate Tickets Record Form at the TOC central accounting point.
Unlocking should allow the ToD to be recalled and the tickets issued.

For whatever reason, the above procedure was not carried out. Virgin referred the customer to Scotrail. The Scotrail ticket office said they could not resolve it and advised the customer to call Scotrail on 03448110141, which the customer plans to do tomorrow.

If anyone with experience of working in or managing a ticket office, or if you are a retailer or have relevant experience in that area, your thoughts would be welcome, thanks

RailUK Forums

furlong · 18 Aug 2019

Well, was it between 18:00 and 08:00?

yorkie · 18 Aug 2019

furlong said:
Well, was it between 18:00 and 08:00?

No, it was in the morning.

yorkie said:
For whatever reason, the above procedure was not carried out. Virgin referred the customer to Scotrail. The Scotrail ticket office said they could not resolve it and advised the customer to call Scotrail on 03448110141, which the customer plans to do tomorrow.

A further update:

The customer called the number they were given by the ticket office. It was explained that this was the wrong number; the customer was then transferred to the correct department, after being put back into the telephone queue.

Scotrail Web Support said that they could not see any booking details under the reference number because the ticket was not bought through their website; they advised the customer to contact TransPennine Express, the original retailer.

The customer then called the TPE Web Support number, who said that they were unable to deal with any ticket machine issues at all. They said that only station staff could assist with ticket machine problems. They said station staff would need to check the CCTV footage to see what tickets had come out of the machine. The customer won't be visiting another Scotrail ticket office, as they have now left Scotland, so presumably another ticket office would be able to assist.

dmncf · 18 Aug 2019

yorkie said:
They said station staff would need to check the CCTV footage to see what tickets had come out of the machine.

Whoever made this suggestion has no experience of railway station CCTV.

father_jack · 18 Aug 2019

If it is a genuine printer failure any TOD location (office or TVM) should be able to issue the TOD again. A "Star" TIS will show the print status as "print failure occurred". Sometimes the subsequent re-collection will give only the missing coupons, sometimes it will reprint all (!!!). Only potential thing is if the TVM is still "frozen" there may be a need to contact the "TOD unlock" helpdesk to retrieve the booking.

yorkie · 3 Sep 2019

father_jack said:
If it is a genuine printer failure any TOD location (office or TVM) should be able to issue the TOD again..

Indeed but in practice this often does not happen

Anyway an update. I did alert a couple of helpful staff at other TOCs for their views:

As what should be done, the ticket office clerk should just try and fulfil the TOD themselves using the reference, in my experience this will normally just print the remaining tickets through the TIS.

Just as an update: I typed the CTR in and it says print failed. All someone had to do was type it in and they would be able to print it out, instead of fobbing the customer off...

Anyway the customer was advised on Twitter to contact TPE customer services, who confirmed that the ticket offices should have been able to issue it. They offered a refund and replace. The customer did this.

They are still awaiting their refund, having been told that their refund request was for a Season ticket (it was an Off Peak Return), that the ticket is "ineligible" for a refund, and the refund amount is shown as £10 less than what it should be as they have applied an admin fee.

So, not a good show from the retailer, though the ticket offices should have just done it in the first place.

This is not an isolated case; I am aware of several others. Some ticket offices are very keen to place the burden on retailers instead of simply re-issuing the tickets.

Is there anyone who can get the rail industry to change its ways? I suspect not, but I won't give up hoping...

yorkie · 7 Sep 2019

A further update:

After the customer made a complaint to TPE Customer Relations regarding the fact they have still not received their refund, Customer Relations responded to the complaint by asking them to contact Web Support. (I wonder if this means the complaint hasn't been logged and doesn't count against TPE's statistics?)

Customer Relations also reiterated that there will be a £10 admin fee.

maniacmartin · 9 Sep 2019

What a poor service from the TOCs involved.

I too have had only one half of a return print recently at a station whose ticket office was closed. In my case however, it wasn't ToD, but just buying a ticket for a future journey and paying at the TVM. It was particularly irksome because the TVM advised to go to the (closed) ticket office, and also specifically stated that my card had been charged, even though it know the printer had failed. Not very helpful.

A ticket office clerk at different station rectified the situation by printing a zero fare excess to the exact same ticket in their TIS. (The outbound part of the excess was retained by the ticket office)

323235 · 10 Sep 2019

Using a zero excess to correct a printing error sounds like another unusual fudge (although a satisfactory fudge for the passenger).

plugwash · 11 Sep 2019

I had a return half printing error on a ticket purchase (not collection) at letchworth and it was also corrected with a zero fare excess by the ticket office at letchworth, in my case I was handed both the outward and return parts of the excess (which was a good thing given the ticket-eating barriers installed at cambridge).

Hadders · 11 Sep 2019

A few years back I had a printing error on a ticket I collected at Stevenage TVM, both the Out and Return portion came out completely blank.

The ticket office gave me zero fare over-distance excesses. I kept hold of the blank tickets as well and tried them in the barriers and they worked at both ends, so clearly a print error but not a mag stripe coding one.

wellhouse · 11 Sep 2019

I have encountered a TVM which printed all the coupons, but failed to deliver them all to the tray. I received a previous passenger's coupon with my tickets, but one of mine was missing. When I reached up, I was able to feel my ticket and retrieve it.

Presumably there would be no indication of printer malfunction with a fault like this.

Clip · 11 Sep 2019

wellhouse said:
Presumably there would be no indication of printer malfunction with a fault like this.

They should pass a sensor to show delivered to the tray nowadays i believe

maniacmartin · 11 Sep 2019

Tickets getting stuck between the printer and the collection tray still happens without the TVM appearing to notice. In fact, it happened to me recently at a new Southern S&B machine. So either the sensors are not on all TVM models or they aren't working properly.

sheff1 · 11 Sep 2019

Which why it is a good idea for a TVM to be programmed to print a TOD collection receipt last and, if purchasing, to request a receipt. In both cases, that should push your travel tickets out - unless there is a major (and hence obvious) printing failure.

Haywain · 11 Sep 2019

maniacmartin said:
So either the sensors are not on all TVM models or they aren't working properly.

Different manufacturers and different models will vary on this.

father_jack · 11 Sep 2019

323235 said:
Using a zero excess to correct a printing error sounds like another unusual fudge (although a satisfactory fudge for the passenger).

Hear hear. I've been doing things like that since 2003 and we betide any manglement who disapprove of my efforts !!!

yorkie · 22 Sep 2019

A further update:

The customer was again refused the refund via email.

The customer called TPE web support helpline yesterday afternoon but after 15 minutes the call was terminated with no answer.

It has now been over 5 weeks since the incident was made; the customer has been left out of pocket since that time, having paid twice for their journey. There is no sign of TPE providing a refund for the amount that was double charged. They seem determined to resist paying the amount due.

Howardh · 22 Sep 2019

Can someone explain to me why there have to be two physical tickets - outbound and return, when the whole journey could be put on one ticket? If you go from A to C on an airline and transfer at B, you only have the one ticket/code. Why not the railways?

Howardh · 22 Sep 2019

yorkie said:
A further update:
The customer was again refused the refund via email.
The customer called TPE web support helpline yesterday afternoon but after 15 minutes the call was terminated with no answer.
It has now been over 5 weeks since the incident was made; the customer has been left out of pocket since that time, having paid twice for their journey. There is no sign of TPE providing a refund for the amount that was double charged. They seem determined to resist paying the amount due.

I'd be contacting the small claims court or similar.

Haywain · 22 Sep 2019

Howardh said:
Can someone explain to me why there have to be two physical tickets - outbound and return, when the whole journey could be put on one ticket? If you go from A to C on an airline and transfer at B, you only have the one ticket/code. Why not the railways?

If you book a return with the airlines you get two parts to the ticket, so actually no difference.

Hadders · 22 Sep 2019

Multiple reservations for the same journey usually print on the same credit size ticket but there's a physical limit to how many can be fitted onto one ticket.

paddington · 22 Sep 2019

Haywain said:
Howardh said:

Can someone explain to me why there have to be two physical tickets - outbound and return, when the whole journey could be put on one ticket? If you go from A to C on an airline and transfer at B, you only have the one ticket/code. Why not the railways?

Click to expand...

If you book a return with the airlines you get two parts to the ticket, so actually no difference.

Airline tickets are not comparable with physical rail tickets in the slightest, as airlines do not have physical tickets, apart from some point to point airlines in remote places which operate like a bus in that you turn up and go.

Airline tickets are a database record and a theoretical concept of a contract to be transported from one airport to another.

I assume orange card come in two parts because each portion is supposed to be clipped individually and swallowed by ticket barriers. Since paper roll tickets don't get retained by barriers, there is really no need to print them as separate portions but I suppose the system does it and nobody thought to change it. I am not sure if the QR codes are different if there are outbound and inbound portions though?

With airlines a single record locator can contain multiple tickets, and a ticket can contain multiple flights. Airlines also differ from GB train tickets in that you need to check in and issue boarding passes before you can fly. Under some airline systems, you get one boarding pass for each flight (but sometimes a flight has multiple segments - and you may get one BP for each segment or one for all segments). But other airline systems will issue one boarding pass for any flights which are considered connecting (with transit times under 24 hours). If you are returning less than 24 hours after arriving, you may get one BP for a return flight.

Haywain · 22 Sep 2019

paddington said:
Airline tickets are not comparable with physical rail tickets in the slightest, as airlines do not have physical tickets, apart from some point to point airlines in remote places which operate like a bus in that you turn up and go.

Airline tickets are a database record and a theoretical concept of a contract to be transported from one airport to another.

I assume orange card come in two parts because each portion is supposed to be clipped individually and swallowed by ticket barriers. Since paper roll tickets don't get retained by barriers, there is really no need to print them as separate portions but I suppose the system does it and nobody thought to change it. I am not sure if the QR codes are different if there are outbound and inbound portions though?

With airlines a single record locator can contain multiple tickets, and a ticket can contain multiple flights. Airlines also differ from GB train tickets in that you need to check in and issue boarding passes before you can fly. Under some airline systems, you get one boarding pass for each flight (but sometimes a flight has multiple segments - and you may get one BP for each segment or one for all segments). But other airline systems will issue one boarding pass for any flights which are considered connecting (with transit times under 24 hours). If you are returning less than 24 hours after arriving, you may get one BP for a return flight.

Do you get one boarding pass for both outward and return? No (other than perhaps very occassional examples, but that's also the case with rail tickets such as out-boundary day travelcards). That is the comparison.

323235 · 22 Sep 2019

yorkie said:
A further update:

The customer was again refused the refund via email.

The customer called TPE web support helpline yesterday afternoon but after 15 minutes the call was terminated with no answer.

It has now been over 5 weeks since the incident was made; the customer has been left out of pocket since that time, having paid twice for their journey. There is no sign of TPE providing a refund for the amount that was double charged. They seem determined to resist paying the amount due.

This is completely absurd, I would be contacting my MP at the very least to try and get it rectified in a fast fashion at the very least or as you suggested.

I'd also be contacting / bringing up Virgin and Scotrail as well to complain about their staffs inability to do a simple job of re-printing the tickets.

I really do despair at staff who can't do the job they are paid to do.

najaB · 23 Sep 2019

323235 said:
I'd also be contacting / bringing up Virgin and Scotrail as well to complain about their staffs inability to do a simple job of re-printing the tickets.

I really do despair at staff who can't do the job they are paid to do.

On the assumption that it was a cross-border journey then Scotrail were correct to decline to help. At Glasgow central they only deal with internal Scottish travel. Virgin runs the lead ticket office.

yorkie · 23 Sep 2019

najaB said:
On the assumption that it was a cross-border journey then Scotrail were correct to decline to help. At Glasgow central they only deal with internal Scottish travel. Virgin runs the lead ticket office.

I agree Virgin were wrong to decline to help, but I reject the claim that Scotrail were correct to refuse.

It was Scotrail who caused the problem in the first place; their information point directed the customer to resolve the issue at Glasgow Central. Any ticket office in a position to help should do so.

In fact, I am not convinced your (unwanted) pedantry is even correct; Schedule 17 of the TSA lists no such limitations for the Scotrail booking office (nor did the booking office claim this was the reason for a refusal to serve the customer), but lists the Virgin Trains ticket office as "Only sells tickets for Anglo-Scottish journeys". But no ticket was being sold and it was not an "Anglo-Scottish journey" anyway.

najaB · 23 Sep 2019

yorkie said:
But no ticket was being sold and it was not an "Anglo-Scottish journey" anyway.

Way to go ignoring the first clause of my post in order ("On the assumption that it was a cross-border journey...") in order to score a point. Bravo.

Belperpete · 23 Sep 2019

paddington said:
I assume orange card come in two parts because each portion is supposed to be clipped individually and swallowed by ticket barriers. Since paper roll tickets don't get retained by barriers, there is really no need to print them as separate portions but I suppose the system does it and nobody thought to change it. I am not sure if the QR codes are different if there are outbound and inbound portions though?

I think they are different. I tend to fold my tickets in half, and when I have handed over the ticket with the wrong half on top, the scan has failed.

Saperstein · 24 Sep 2019

@yorkie I had a similar problem with TPE a few months back, my case didn’t involve a TVM breakdown but a simple refund following cancellation.

Thread is here:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/refund-dispute-transpennine-express-tpe.184345/#post-4059231

The amount in my case was only small but they were equally as defiant at not paying as in the case you mention, they even had the cheek to try and charge me the £10 admin fee, another parallel.

My advice would be to keep on at them and be prepared to use the ombudsman if they resist for too long.

Apart from phone calls to TPE I also kept on at them via what’s app at +44 7812 223336.

Good luck.

Saperstein.

TOD collection problem: return portion not printed

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