Class 710 LO

Andrew1395 · 9 Sep 2019

Saw my first 710 on the DC today, 710 263 worked the 17.27 Euston to Watford Junction tonight. Presumably the reason the peak DC is now four trains an hour is the use of these new trains. Of course the four trains an hour proposition is not a clockface, so you can still wait 17 minutes for a train rather than 20. It does give a net gain of one coach an hour 4x4 compared to 3x5).

RailUK Forums

Lukeo · 10 Sep 2019

greatkingrat said:
Times are
From Watford: 0629 0829 1031 1231 1431 1631 1831 2031
From Euston: 0727 0928 1128 1328 1528 1727 1927

Services in red are running ECS as driver training trips.

Anyone know if it’ll be the same for today? Is there a website which allows you to check in advance?

87015 · 10 Sep 2019

No there were 4tph on the DC last week at the same times too, but no-one noticed it seems as the usual inaccurate twitter commentators and industry rags are in place claiming it was yesterday! Euston and the Bakerloo aren’t clockface so you’ll have a losing battle trying to force the DC to be.

ijmad · 11 Sep 2019

87015 said:
No there were 4tph on the DC last week at the same times too, but no-one noticed it seems as the usual inaccurate twitter commentators and industry rags are in place claiming it was yesterday! Euston and the Bakerloo aren’t clockface so you’ll have a losing battle trying to force the DC to be.

It still seems there is a cancelled diagram outside of the peaks though:
10:31 from Watford, 11:28 from Euston, 12:31 from Watford, 13:28 from Euston, 14:31 from Watford, 15:28 from Euston.

hwl · 11 Sep 2019

ijmad said:
It still seems there is a cancelled diagram outside of the peaks though:
10:31 from Watford, 11:28 from Euston, 12:31 from Watford, 13:28 from Euston, 14:31 from Watford, 15:28 from Euston.

Going by post 1790 https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-710-lo.145774/page-60#post-4194961 (repeated in #1803 2 above yours)
Those are some of the of peak driver training paths shown in red so it might be as simple as not having driver to train today as they are rostered elsewhere.

Flinn Reed · 11 Sep 2019

Travelled on a 710 on the Watford line this week. The train did not appear on the departure boards, and the onboard information screens/announcements were not working. Found the seats to be far less comfortable than the 378s they replace, and generally seemed darker inside and a bit less spacious than a 378. Also, the service struggled to cope with the passenger load for most of the route, really should not have been reduced from 5 cars to 4. Perhaps TFL could order some extra carriages to convert all units to 5-car, as previously done with the 378s?

hwl · 11 Sep 2019

Flinn Reed said:
Travelled on a 710 on the Watford line this week. The train did not appear on the departure boards, and the onboard information screens/announcements were not working. Found the seats to be far less comfortable than the 378s they replace, and generally seemed darker inside and a bit less spacious than a 378. Also, the service struggled to cope with the passenger load for most of the route, really should not have been reduced from 5 cars to 4. Perhaps TFL could order some extra carriages to convert all units to 5-car, as previously done with the 378s?

The Watford DC and Goblin 710s are a common fleet based at Willesden and as such are limited to 4car due to platform length issues on Goblin e.g. Gospel Oak bay platform.

ijmad · 11 Sep 2019

When the service is properly running, 4tph * 4 carriages is a teeny bit more than 3tph * 5 carriages, so the service should be able to carry the same volume of passengers. The problem is perhaps the cancellations at the moment, a 30 minute gap in service is too long. What time did you travel, @Flinn Reed ?

Flinn Reed · 11 Sep 2019

ijmad said:
When the service is properly running, 4tph * 4 carriages is a teeny bit more than 3tph * 5 carriages, so the service should be able to carry the same volume of passengers. The problem is perhaps the cancellations at the moment, a 30 minute gap in service is too long. What time did you travel, @Flinn Reed ?

In the PM peak towards Watford Junction.

The problem is that, especially in the peaks, the line was previously over-congested with 5-car services at 3tph

transmanche · 11 Sep 2019

ijmad said:
When the service is properly running, 4tph * 4 carriages is a teeny bit more than 3tph * 5 carriages, so the service should be able to carry the same volume of passengers.

Where does the DC line service normally get overcrowded? Because between Queen's Park and Harrow & Wealdstone the bulk of the service is provided by the Bakerloo line, with 6tph (9tph as far as Stonebridge Park).

Flinn Reed · 11 Sep 2019

transmanche said:
Where does the DC line service normally get overcrowded? Because between Queen's Park and Harrow & Wealdstone the bulk of the service is provided by the Bakerloo line, with 6tph (9tph as far as Stonebridge Park).

It's actually the section that parallels the Bakerloo line that tends to be the most overcrowded. Queens Park to Wembley Central is particularly busy, but is still quite congested as far as Harrow & Wealdstone. Most passengers near Kilburn High Road / South Hampstead will use the Bakerloo/Jubilee/Met lines instead, and many passengers north of Harrow & Wealdstone will use the faster LNR services into Euston.

samuelmorris · 11 Sep 2019

I travelled regularly on this route at the end of 2017 and I found it busy in the evening peak heading South but nowhere close to capacity, I find it difficult to believe that a 4-car unit would be insufficient, especially at 4tph... A quick glance at the northbound units didn't make them look too bad either, but perhaps I wasn't looking closely enough.

Terry Tait · 11 Sep 2019

When are 710s due to appear on Liverpool Street to Chingford and Enfield?

MatthewRead · 11 Sep 2019

Terry Tait said:
When are 710s due to appear on Liverpool Street to Chingford and Enfield?

Not till next year now.

Class 170101 · 11 Sep 2019

Aren't some of the Class 710s meant to be in 5 car configuration?

samuelmorris · 11 Sep 2019

Class 170101 said:
Aren't some of the Class 710s meant to be in 5 car configuration?

Yes but only the North London line units I think?

superalbs · 11 Sep 2019

Class 170101 said:
Aren't some of the Class 710s meant to be in 5 car configuration?

I have seen a five car one in Velim.

ijmad · 11 Sep 2019

samuelmorris said:
Yes but only the North London line units I think?

Yep, just 6 units out of the 54. They will fill some gaps in the NLL service and allow 378s to be cascaded to the ELL for potential 20tph operation.

They want to have a common GOBLIN/DC fleet running out of the same depot and many of the GOBLIN platforms can only take 4 cars.

I am unsure whether there's scope for boosting frequency on the Watford DC further than 4tph. I speculate (with no evidence mind) that the long term plan might be to extend the Bakerloo back to Watford when NTfL and its extension come along in the late 2020s / early 2030s.

simple simon · 11 Sep 2019

Alas, none were in service when I was there today! Even the staff training journeys were cancelled.

I checked on realtimetrains (RTT) before travelling and even whilst on my way to where I wanted to see the new train... it showed as being out and about but failed to turn up at the allotted time. I was at Kensal Green - just outside the station above where the main lines go into a tunnel, with the station platforms to my left.

The train I wanted to see was 5C29 https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/F02338/2019/09/11/advanced due at 13:07; and again at about 13:39 on a northbound working.

Later in the day I saw that a train which had been out was terminated at Willesden Junction.

What did impress me however was that RTT showed every Bakerloo line train, using the code LT, as if London Transport was one of the many Train Operating Companies.

transmanche · 11 Sep 2019

ijmad said:
I speculate (with no evidence mind) that the long term plan might be to extend the Bakerloo back to Watford when NTfL and its extension come along in the late 2020s / early 2030s.

A 2006 version of the GLA's London Plan actually had that as planned for 2026 - to be part of a North London line upgrade. TfL appears not to have pursued this.

Nicholas Lewis · 11 Sep 2019

simple simon said:
Alas, none were in service when I was there today! Even the staff training journeys were cancelled.

I checked on realtimetrains (RTT) before travelling and even whilst on my way to where I wanted to see the new train... it showed as being out and about but failed to turn up at the allotted time. I was at Kensal Green - just outside the station above where the main lines go into a tunnel, with the station platforms to my left.

The train I wanted to see was 5C29 https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/F02338/2019/09/11/advanced due at 13:07; and again at about 13:39 on a northbound working.

Later in the day I saw that a train which had been out was terminated at Willesden Junction.

What did impress me however was that RTT showed every Bakerloo line train, using the code LT, as if London Transport was one of the many Train Operating Companies.

So the 47 year old tube trains prop up the service while the new stuff continues to languish at Willesden

samuelmorris · 11 Sep 2019

simple simon said:
Alas, none were in service when I was there today! Even the staff training journeys were cancelled.

I checked on realtimetrains (RTT) before travelling and even whilst on my way to where I wanted to see the new train... it showed as being out and about but failed to turn up at the allotted time. I was at Kensal Green - just outside the station above where the main lines go into a tunnel, with the station platforms to my left.

The train I wanted to see was 5C29 https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/F02338/2019/09/11/advanced due at 13:07; and again at about 13:39 on a northbound working.

Later in the day I saw that a train which had been out was terminated at Willesden Junction.

What did impress me however was that RTT showed every Bakerloo line train, using the code LT, as if London Transport was one of the many Train Operating Companies.

This happens where LU services share NR rails - same happens at Richmond as well I believe.

ijmad · 11 Sep 2019

simple simon said:
What did impress me however was that RTT showed every Bakerloo line train, using the code LT, as if London Transport was one of the many Train Operating Companies.

I believe LU is legally an Open Access Operator North of Queens Park. LU purchase slots from Network Rail. So it makes sense they show up in this area.

simple simon · 13 Sep 2019

ijmad said:
I believe LU is legally an Open Access Operator North of Queens Park. LU purchase slots from Network Rail. So it makes sense they show up in this area.

Oh, I had no idea - but it must be a pretty unusual open access operator with over 100 years of continuous service on the route - - indeed, if I am correct it was the Underground who initially operated the electric service to Watford along these tracks whilst the mainline railway company (LNWR) waited for its new electric trains.

Class315 · 13 Sep 2019

710258 doing testing on the Watford DC line, passed me at Stonebridge Park heading northbound a few minutes ago with the PIS set for Richmond.

ijmad · 14 Sep 2019

Class315 said:
710258 doing testing on the Watford DC line, passed me at Stonebridge Park heading northbound a few minutes ago with the PIS set for Richmond.

Eventually we will see a few 710s among the 378s at Richmond (although they'll be the 5 car variant).

Class315 · 14 Sep 2019

Currently abroad 710264 2D95 06:58 London Euston - Watford Junction service with a fitter riding abroad. No audio or visual announcements as of yet.

Malcolmffc · 14 Sep 2019

You can also see LU trains in RTT at Wimbledon and Richmond, for similar reasons.

hwl · 14 Sep 2019

simple simon said:
Oh, I had no idea - but it must be a pretty unusual open access operator with over 100 years of continuous service on the route - - indeed, if I am correct it was the Underground who initially operated the electric service to Watford along these tracks whilst the mainline railway company (LNWR) waited for its new electric trains.

"Open Access" in this context just meaning they aren't a DfT franchised operator. They are much closer to a FOC than they are to other OA operators and paths etc were handled separately at privatisation.

387star · 21 Sep 2019

hwl said:
The Watford DC and Goblin 710s are a common fleet based at Willesden and as such are limited to 4car due to platform length issues on Goblin e.g. Gospel Oak bay platform.

Where are the Watford line 378s going

Class 710 LO

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