tiptoptaff
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Then that's your choice. One less bike being carted around.
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Virgin Restricting Access to Cycle Area on Pendolinos
- Thread starter DynamicSpirit
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DynamicSpirit
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Great logic that. Would you like to apply that to all passengers? Have Virgin make things hard enough that they put everyone off travelling. Maybe most of them go into cars instead. Then for each passenger who gets put off travelling by train, you can say 'one less passenger being carted around'.
Or maybe, we could remember that the purpose of trains is actually to carry people (plus their reasonable possessions/baggage etc.), providing an alternative to cars - and that making things as awkward as possible for their passengers isn't really the way to achieve that...
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I don't see how it's making things awkward, it's avoiding a bad situation that was happening. If you're on the platform with your foot in the door until you see staff coming your way, you/your bike won't be overcarried. If you're on board where nobody can see you and there is no passcom in that area (there isn't, the nearest one is half way down coach A), you can get missed - and people often are.
jfowkes
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I'd feel pretty awkward holding up an entire train so that I can get my bike. I've held up a 222 when it was locked in the bike section and I almost died of shame, even though it wasn't my fault.
Personal shame is perhaps not a suitable basis on which to base a policy, but platform dwell times are!
Personal shame is perhaps not a suitable basis on which to base a policy, but platform dwell times are!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It's the staff not doing their job properly that is the cause of the delay, so I don't feel awkward, they should feel awkward. It's no different to the ongoing abject failure to provide assistance to those requiring that reliably.
Bletchleyite
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I'd rather there to be no access, to be honest, means my bike is less likely to get nicked.
GW43125
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May well have been the Wessex Electrics (442s)-think these had bike storage in the guard’s van (in the middle of the set)
ashkeba
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Except anyone getting a bike off might decide yours is nicer and anyone with a crew key (and many people seem to have copies not only ex crew) could let themselves in if quick and you could not see it and would not know maybe for hours afterwards.
It is rather odd and outdated that in this day of telling people not to leave luggage unwatched that some passengers are forced to!
EE Andy b1
Established Member
I'd like to see these many people, not traincrew, who have carriage keys. Not that I have ever seen and if i ever do i think refural to BTP would do.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Plenty of preserved railway volunteers have them. Also, some of us have things that open carriage key locks that don't have the central "spike" in the middle - I have used my house key to open Class 166 windows in the height of summer when the aircon wasn't doing anything but blowing hot air, to a round of rapturous applause. I'd not use it to gain access to somewhere I really shouldn't be, but if it's possible, a thief might be able to.
ashkeba
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If risk of refural to BTP was enough to scare a thief, they would not be a thief, would they?
Im pretty sure that the BTP have better things to do than waste time on someone with a Tkey unless they were using it for nefarious purposes. I mean, just how exactly would you know that the person you have seen with one is not train crew just in civvies?
Bletchleyite
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The fundamental problem is that due to inadequate "on the ground" in-person policing in the UK, crime in fact does pay.
ashkeba
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Is possession of a carriage key (or something that can be used as one) a crime? I genuinely did not know. I thought it was like having a meter cupboard key. I never thought to report to the police someone who opens a window on a train with failed cooling or closes an unsecured control panel.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
No, of course it isn't, there are plenty of other legitimate uses for a square key, not least on a preserved railway but also elsewhere. Though using it to do something on a train is most likely a Byelaw breach.
Before this descends into the usual nonsense. The reason for the restriction is to keep regular passengers out of there as it has been clear that the signs saying do not distract the driver have not worked or the fact that no one is supposed to access the train that way but very often people will try to. It might not seem the biggest issue in the world but the security of both us as a driver and the train itself is taken very seriously and it overrides the access requirements for someone to get at their bike. You can’t access the other cab at the first class end and this cab should be no different. Passengers are not supposed to be in there and people who just turn up with bikes without a reservation are not supposed to get on as there have been many incidents of irate bikers getting angry about their booked bike been unable to get on. There is only room for so many bikes and under no circumstances can our way out of the cab be blocked. No if no buts. It does NOT happen. It’s more reassuring for bikers as no one should be able to go in there apart from staff, so no access to the bike and if anyone Is stood at that crew door, it should be obvious that something is remiss as the train cannot dispatch with someone stood at the immediate side of the door.
Let’s also make it clear that if I caught a member of the public trying to access this crew area with a T key I would ask for BTP immediately. You have no right to use that key.
Let’s also make it clear that if I caught a member of the public trying to access this crew area with a T key I would ask for BTP immediately. You have no right to use that key.
EE Andy b1
Established Member
Thanks driver_m - at last a clear explanation. I'm disappointed that some passengers distract drivers - what can they be thinking of? Whenever I encounter a driver while loading or unloading my bike, I've always found them to be professional, helpful and friendly.
jfowkes
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One might ask why the cycle space was designed to be there if passengers in the space can potentially distract the driver.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Because it's otherwise wasted space, as at the time they were built it wasn't permitted to be passenger space. Bikes go in there, not people. The door has always had a "no admittance" sign on it, it was just routinely ignored.
In what way were passengers distracting the driver that they wouldn't be on a Class 170 (or any other sub-110mph DMU or EMU) where there are seats right behind the cab door? Or is it just an opportunity to provide a better situation for the driver than those types of unit?
ashkeba
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I understand much of what you say but it is not more reassuring for bikers to have to leave their bike and basically to have to check it in with train crew who, frankly, sometimes give the impression that they hate bikers; and trains are despatched with bikers stood by the goods door - here's a random one found by a quick search of this site: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/cycle-symbols-on-near-carriage-doors.37509/#post-512957
I agree but the keys are out there and thieves are obviously not scared by the risk of BTP and I don't think all crew are as good as you.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Putting your foot in the Coach A passenger door and waving frantically at platform staff is a much better way of ensuring it is dealt with if it comes to that.
EE Andy b1
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Well that is what I would do. The train can't get dispatched and help will arrive eventually. Don't worry about delay as it's not your fault.
jfowkes
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I did exactly this on a 222 because my bike was locked in. I got told off, quite forcefully, by the train manager as I "should have told them I was getting off at Bedford". How I was meant to know that a) they would lock my bike in and b) I was meant to tell them, is still a mystery to me. I was made to feel in no uncertain terms that it was my fault.
I still carry my bike on trains, and on 222s, but that has soured the experience somewhat and I always hope that that bike space is at the back.
ashkeba
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Unlike HSTs, the Coach A passenger door on Pendolinos is half a coach away from the bike door (see https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:390039_at_Blackpool_North_on_15.08.18.jpg ), so the passenger door can easily be shut and locked before you realise that no-one is coming to the bike door.
I'd expect complaints if I block a door from closing and delay the train - if not by crew then by other passengers. There are announcements and notices telling people to stand clear of closing doors and alarms that go off and so on. The doors also look pretty substantial and like they would crush a foot easily but maybe the mechanisms are cleverer than that.
ashkeba
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I think people who hate bikes always say bikers should have told the crew or platform staff but I do not think any train company website or the National Rail one say that you should so there is no way to know that and I suspect some staff would get cross at bikers waisting their time. I think on services requireing reservations the company should have told them already and on other services they should look for all passengers requiring any sort of assistance.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Stand by (and block) the coach A passenger door until the member of staff is there.
Other passengers would be told to shut up and go away, it is really none of their business. If a member of traincrew arrives, that's the situation sorted, and if they were snarky about it it would be met with a very terse response relating to the fact that doing their job correctly and having a member of platform staff stood waiting ready by coach A would have avoided the situation (coupled with a formal complaint later).
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The issue is exactly the same as assistance. Reservation is compulsory, so the staff should know when people are getting on and off without needing to be told. They just often get distracted/don't check/don't get told so the service is missed.
As I’ve said, not one of our guards (TM’s) will move a train if a passenger wanting a bike off is stood literally at the side of the crew door. It should be obvious why your stood there and they have to check the full train. As I’ve said many a time. The James St fatality changed everything. No guard will move a train if someone is stood too close.
Some tips which may help you cyclists.
if you have not encountered any staff at a terminal station and have been able to put your bike straight into the train, the onus is on YOU to find the guard of the train to let them know where you are getting off, regardless of whether it is the terminus or not.
If the platform staff have put you on, just make sure they have said they will inform the guard. If in doubt. Do this yourself. (Belt & braces approach).
any station where our platform station are typically unavailable such as Tamworth, go and find the guard. They’re usually in coach C or will be positioning themselves in a specific place specified by management in order to get the best view to despatch a train.
Do not ask the driver, They are under no obligation to let you out, the despatch procedure takes full precedence. if you have made the staff aware, and the unlikely event occurs that they go with your bike, that is upto VT to resolve. But essentially it won’t happen if there’s a clear understanding between you all.
Some tips which may help you cyclists.
if you have not encountered any staff at a terminal station and have been able to put your bike straight into the train, the onus is on YOU to find the guard of the train to let them know where you are getting off, regardless of whether it is the terminus or not.
If the platform staff have put you on, just make sure they have said they will inform the guard. If in doubt. Do this yourself. (Belt & braces approach).
any station where our platform station are typically unavailable such as Tamworth, go and find the guard. They’re usually in coach C or will be positioning themselves in a specific place specified by management in order to get the best view to despatch a train.
Do not ask the driver, They are under no obligation to let you out, the despatch procedure takes full precedence. if you have made the staff aware, and the unlikely event occurs that they go with your bike, that is upto VT to resolve. But essentially it won’t happen if there’s a clear understanding between you all.
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