New trains for East Midlands Franchise

61653 HTAFC · 11 Sep 2019

Southern Dvr said:
They don’t serve Derby on the Liverpool - Norwich though do they? Thought they went via Alfreton.

Northern's Leeds service generally runs via Alfreton and Ilkeston, the Norwich to Liverpool serves Derby most hours (some exceptions may be in place to maintain crew knowledge via the Erewash valley). Must admit I thought they served Alfreton too, but I'm not familiar enough with the lines in that part of the world to know if it's possible to run Nottingham - Alfreton - Derby.

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Southern Dvr · 11 Sep 2019

A look at EMR departures from Norwixh to Liverpool today shows an hourly service via Nottingham, Alfreton & Chesterfield. There are no services I can find direct from Norwich to Derby.

JonathanH · 11 Sep 2019

Southern Dvr said:
A look at EMR departures from Norwixh to Liverpool today shows an hourly service via Nottingham, Alfreton & Chesterfield. There are no services I can find direct from Norwich to Derby.

That is correct but doesn't constrain future services. If they want to run Norwich to Derby they would not be limited to do so by the fact that the trains don't currently go there.

Southern Dvr · 11 Sep 2019

JonathanH said:
That is correct but doesn't constrain future services. If they want to run Norwich to Derby they would not be limited to do so by the fact that the trains don't currently go there.

That wasn’t the reason for my post!
Someone said they run that way now, and I was sure when I’d been on them they went via Alfreton. Norwich to Crewe would be better, the Derby to Crewe Line is quite a short stand alone line that might benefit from some sort of extension.

ag51ruk · 11 Sep 2019

61653 HTAFC said:
Northern's Leeds service generally runs via Alfreton and Ilkeston, the Norwich to Liverpool serves Derby most hours (some exceptions may be in place to maintain crew knowledge via the Erewash valley). Must admit I thought they served Alfreton too, but I'm not familiar enough with the lines in that part of the world to know if it's possible to run Nottingham - Alfreton - Derby.

The current Norwich - Liverpool service does not serve Derby - they all run via Alfreton, which has no services direct to Derby.

Under the plan to split that service into two, the current Nottingham - Norwich half is proposed to start at Derby to provide an extra EMR service every hour between Derby and Nottingham

Southern Dvr · 11 Sep 2019

I wonder if Spondon would be served?
Last time I checked it was a sort of parliamentary service type situation there.

61653 HTAFC · 11 Sep 2019

ag51ruk said:
The current Norwich - Liverpool service does not serve Derby - they all run via Alfreton, which has no services direct to Derby.

Under the plan to split that service into two, the current Nottingham - Norwich half is proposed to start at Derby to provide an extra EMR service every hour between Derby and Nottingham

Am I right in thinking it used to run via Derby? Tbh I'm surprised that EMT didn't choose to serve Ilkeston with the Liverpool service when it opened.

JonathanH · 11 Sep 2019

61653 HTAFC said:
Am I right in thinking it used to run via Derby? Tbh I'm surprised that EMT didn't choose to serve Ilkeston with the Liverpool service when it opened.

It has not in recent times routinely run via Derby. Until the Northern service to Leeds was instituted the North West to East Anglia service was the only service down the Erewash Valley (other than extensions of the services from St Pancras in marginal time) so it had to go via Alfreton.

No reason to call at Ilkeston with the Northern service providing an hourly service over the route in the same way that it doesn't stop at Dronfield or Langley Mill.

cnjb8 · 11 Sep 2019

Southern Dvr said:
I wonder if Spondon would be served?
Last time I checked it was a sort of parliamentary service type situation there.

The station is 2 miles away from Spondon so it wouldn't benefit its namesake.

Class 170101 · 11 Sep 2019

JonathanH said:
No reason to call at Ilkeston with the Northern service providing an hourly service over the route in the same way that it doesn't stop at Dronfield or Langley Mill.

Ilkeston isn't much a Parkway station though with an hourly service. The EMT service should stop there to be honest.

ag51ruk said:
Under the plan to split that service into two, the current Nottingham - Norwich half is proposed to start at Derby to provide an extra EMR service every hour between Derby and Nottingham

To be honest this service if is split at Nottingham (and I hope it isn't) then diverting to Derby is wise. However I would say Crewe is a better destination than Matlock and probably more reliable too given the single line to Matlock.

43096 · 11 Sep 2019

Class 170101 said:
Ilkeston isn't much a Parkway station though with an hourly service. The EMT service should stop there to be honest.

It's a "Regional Express" service and shouldn't be calling at every blade of grass.

Class 170101 · 11 Sep 2019

Remove Alfreton / Langley Mill and put Ilkeston in then?

LowLevel · 11 Sep 2019

Class 170101 said:
Remove Alfreton / Langley Mill and put Ilkeston in then?

Alfreton is Mansfield's long distance station with a lot of other local commuting towns.

Ilkeston is on the edge of town and has some local traffic but definitely not warranting the removal of Alfreton's call :rolleyes:

Class 170101 · 11 Sep 2019

LowLevel said:
Alfreton is Mansfield's long distance station with a lot of other local commuting towns.

Ilkeston is on the edge of town and has some local traffic but definitely not warranting the removal of Alfreton's call

An hourly service (broadly) isn't likely to encourage use as a Parkway station I'm afraid. The East Midlands Parkway station has more trains but not well spread.

hooverboy · 11 Sep 2019

Southern Dvr said:
That wasn’t the reason for my post!
Someone said they run that way now, and I was sure when I’d been on them they went via Alfreton. Norwich to Crewe would be better, the Derby to Crewe Line is quite a short stand alone line that might benefit from some sort of extension.

norwich to crewe would be do-able.
just needs a much bigger train than presently in use( 1*cl153 crewe to derby presently)

1* 3 or 4 car 170 would work, but i think derby-crewe is earmarked for 1*156 anyway

transmanche · 11 Sep 2019

hooverboy said:
norwich to crewe would be do-able.

If you're going to Crewe, you might as well carry on to Liverpool...

londonmidland · 11 Sep 2019

transmanche said:
If you're going to Crewe, you might as well carry on to Liverpool...

Via Wilmslow and Manchester Piccadilly? :lol:

TheBigD · 11 Sep 2019

Tony Miles over on wnxx has said the plan for the 170's is...

23 2-car 170s from WMT 46
5 3-car 170s from SR 15
4 3-car 170s from GTR (Eversholt) 12
2 3-car 170s from GTR (Porterbrook) 6
10 2-car 170s from GTR (Porterbrook) 20

TOTAl = 99

59CosG95 · 12 Sep 2019

TheBigD said:
Tony Miles over on wnxx has said the plan for the 170's is...

23 2-car 170s from WMT 46
5 3-car 170s from SR 15
4 3-car 170s from GTR (Eversholt) 12
2 3-car 170s from GTR (Porterbrook) 6
10 2-car 170s from GTR (Porterbrook) 20

TOTAl = 99

Interesting...looks like 170518-170523 (part of the CrossCountry fleet) are being swapped for 170630-170635. I bet XC aren't complaining about 6 additional carriages!

LowLevel · 12 Sep 2019

59CosG95 said:
Interesting...looks like 170518-170523 (part of the CrossCountry fleet) are being swapped for 170630-170635. I bet XC aren't complaining about 6 additional carriages!

Looks more like they're having their centre cars removed?

whhistle · 12 Sep 2019

hooverboy said:
1* 3 or 4 car 170 would work, but i think derby-crewe is earmarked for 1*156 anyway

For now...
It'll probably be one of the last routes to go 170.

222001 · 12 Sep 2019

ag51ruk said:
The current Norwich - Liverpool service does not serve Derby - they all run via Alfreton, which has no services direct to Derby.

Under the plan to split that service into two, the current Nottingham - Norwich half is proposed to start at Derby to provide an extra EMR service every hour between Derby and Nottingham

The plan is to run Norwich to Matlock from December 2021. Alfreton would be served by Nottingham - Liverpool which is most likely to be ran by TPE.

222001 · 12 Sep 2019

LowLevel said:
Looks more like they're having their centre cars removed?

Indeed, but EMR are trying to retain them, which would be a positive. Otherwise it would be a fleet of 11 3 cars, and 33 2 cars.

LowLevel · 12 Sep 2019

222001 said:
Indeed, but EMR are trying to retain them, which would be a positive. Otherwise it would be a fleet of 11 3 cars, and 33 2 cars.

I know - I'm more referring to the usual crayon wielding inference for this thread that Cross Country have been erroneously mentioned as being involved in unit swaps.

Haydn1971 · 13 Sep 2019

Will be interesting to see how the pricing goes on the new fleet, I regularly use the 6am HST to London, the first class tickets are a very small premium over standard, unlike the earlier or later trains where first class tickets are often a significant premium - I thought this was the journey time at first, but it’s clear that the HST has an excess of first seats. Seem to recall reading that the nine car Meridian’s had an excess of first seating at first, which was fixed in part by the reconfigurations, declassification of part of first and finally the mid life refurbishment. Any views on this and how the new fleet will be configured?

Haydn1971 · 13 Sep 2019

grumpyoldman01 said:
My initial thought, too, but the modern diesels are due to be introduced from May 2020, and the Corby service starts FROM December 2020 (according to the DfT website)

When do the 180s become available for EMR ?

OTRail · 13 Sep 2019

Haydn1971 said:
When do the 180s become available for EMR ?

I think when Hull Trains introduce their full 802 fleet which should be by May 2020

Prestige15 · 13 Sep 2019

222001 said:
The plan is to run Norwich to Matlock from December 2021. Alfreton would be served by Nottingham - Liverpool which is most likely to be ran by TPE.

I still think it would make more sense if they ran to Crewe instead to Matlock, That would bring much needed 2 trains per hour, one semi fast and one stopper plus giving decent connections to wales/manc airport etc from Nottingham and beyond, however not too sure on the pathing between Stoke and Crewe

whhistle · 13 Sep 2019

OTRail said:
I think when Hull Trains introduce their full 802 fleet which should be by May 2020

It has been suggested they will have 6 months with EMR before they begin passenger service.
I wonder if Hull trains (given their experience with the 180s) will give them up sooner and stick with the HSTs until their 80x take over?

tbtc · 13 Sep 2019

Prestige15 said:
I still think it would make more sense if they ran to Crewe instead to Matlock, That would bring much needed 2 trains per hour, one semi fast and one stopper plus giving decent connections to wales/manc airport etc from Nottingham and beyond, however not too sure on the pathing between Stoke and Crewe

Derby - Crewe is going to have a reasonable capacity increase when the single coach 153s are replaced by 170s.

But I have another reason for being against Norwich - Matlock, which is the problem of the long single track branch through the Peak District - it would only take a mild delay at (say) Ely for the service to miss its path up the ECML from Peterborough to Grantham... and then by the time it's got to Derby it'll be due to arrive in Matlock, so the service gets cancelled to ensure it's at the right time to leave Derby for Norwich... like the way that the TPE timetable changes last year saw many Scarborough services cancelled (or turned at Malton/ York).

New trains for East Midlands Franchise

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