ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

43096 · 10 Sep 2019

Railperf said:
September 2019 Modern Railways claimed 6,500 MTIN for Scotrail HST set (was it refurb or classic or both?)
GWR PRM modified 2+4 HST's were 17,452 MTIN - almost 3 times better. For comparison Class 800 and 802's are all 9 to 10k MTIN. But nothing meets South Wester Railway Siemens Class 707's on a whopping 178k MTIN for the same unit miles as Scotrail HST's

You’re just using the period “spot” figures, though. The MAA (moving annual average) is a far better comparator.

RailUK Forums

47271 · 10 Sep 2019

Steven_G said:
This was mentioned in a post on Sunday.

If this maintenance is needing carried out and it’s planned to have more power cars out of service then that’s all fair and good.

No point everyone going round and round and round complaining about 170/158’s when it’s planned.

ScotRail look like they are putting a lot of work into getting the power cars up to a state where they are reliable, more so than their previous owners.

Set 7 due any day and it genuinely looks like a monthly drum beat.

Yup the bike situation isn’t as advertised on the refurb sets with end-to-end storage in the power cars but there will be reasons

Stewart Stevenson seems to have returned to the post of Transport Minister.

Northhighland · 11 Sep 2019

Steven_G said:
This was mentioned in a post on Sunday.

If this maintenance is needing carried out and it’s planned to have more power cars out of service then that’s all fair and good.

No point everyone going round and round and round complaining about 170/158’s when it’s planned.

ScotRail look like they are putting a lot of work into getting the power cars up to a state where they are reliable, more so than their previous owners.

Set 7 due any day and it genuinely looks like a monthly drum beat.

Yup the bike situation isn’t as advertised on the refurb sets with end-to-end storage in the power cars but there will be reasons

The clue is in the word planned. You plan maintenance so as to not disrupt services. Why would anyone plan for 75% of the HST fleet to be out at the same time?

Hard to stomach a 3and a half hour journey on a rammed 158 or 170 only to see HST’s doing nothing at your start and finish destinations.

GusB · 11 Sep 2019

Northhighland said:
The clue is in the word planned. You plan maintenance so as to not disrupt services. Why would anyone plan for 75% of the HST fleet to be out at the same time?

Hard to stomach a 3and a half hour journey on a rammed 158 or 170 only to see HST’s doing nothing at your start and finish destinations.

Have you not got another record to play? A) the current one appears to be stuck and B) it gets a bit boring hearing the same old tune being played over and over and over again.

Morayshire · 11 Sep 2019

SC318250 said:
Apologies of this has been posted already, but as working dont have time to read back a few pages.
There was a post on Scot-rail saying that due to modifications required to WSP there would be limited HST in service

Another post on Scot-rail earlier this morning in response claims that the above problem with wheel slip protection has been "strenously denied" by the HST project manager.

As to HSTs being out and about this morning, there is a classic on the first Aberdeen to Glasgow Queen Street service (1T06), a refurb on the first Aberdeen to Edinburgh (1B07) and a refurb on the 06:47 departure from Arbroath northwards (1A43 Perth to Inverurie, 43176 plus HA24).

Highland37 · 11 Sep 2019

It is perfectly reasonable to pass comment on a service which continues to be sub standard.

Why are so few refurbished sets in service? Still staff training issues or problems with the sets?

GusB · 11 Sep 2019

Highland37 said:
It is perfectly reasonable to pass comment on a service which continues to be sub standard.

Why are so few refurbished sets in service? Still staff training issues or problems with the sets?

If the service is so sub-standard, why not address those concerns directly to the people who can provide you with the answers, and then report back to the rest of us when you have them? While I agree that it's reasonable to pass comment on a sub-standard service, this is not the thread for grumbling about your experiences. If there are issues concerning the introduction of the HSTs then I'm interested to hear them, but any genuine updates are being drowned out by the Highland howls.

CJSwan · 11 Sep 2019

There’s enough staff trained to work both varieties of HST now. It’s purely down to reliability, maintenance and exams. The things are knackered and falling to bits (both kinds!) and I’m sorry to upset those of you who are found (and I count myself in this category too) of the HSTs, but I really doubt ScotRail will ever have all 26.

If all 26 did make it in service, I personally think they’d be getting replaced quickly in the next franchise.

Highland37 · 11 Sep 2019

GusB said:
If the service is so sub-standard, why not address those concerns directly to the people who can provide you with the answers, and then report back to the rest of us when you have them? While I agree that it's reasonable to pass comment on a sub-standard service, this is not the thread for grumbling about your experiences. If there are issues concerning the introduction of the HSTs then I'm interested to hear them, but any genuine updates are being drowned out by the Highland howls.

I and many others have. The inconvenient truth is that Scotrail avoid the question. Whenever a direct question is asked as to why the HSTs are not being used, you get an answer along the lines of "we are doing all we can". They never answer the question. I will ask them directly on Facebook now and report back.

The poor service is due to the problems with introducing the HSTs and any comment on the service has been related to the delays, lack of information and that very fact.

There is a great reluctance to see fault with the railway, an avoidance even. These are very old and tired trains which aren't in service. No amount of Southern Nostalgia will change that.

Highland37 · 11 Sep 2019

CJSwan said:
There’s enough staff trained to work both varieties of HST now. It’s purely down to reliability, maintenance and exams. The things are knackered and falling to bits (both kinds!) and I’m sorry to upset those of you who are found (and I count myself in this category too) of the HSTs, but I really doubt ScotRail will ever have all 26.

If all 26 did make it in service, I personally think they’d be getting replaced quickly in the next franchise.

Thank you for that information. You also get to the nub of the issue in that many people get upset about - these are falling to bits and not sufficient to run a modern service. I hope they are replaced as soon as possible as I have travelled more frequently on a single 158 since the "introduction" of the HSTs for the very reason that a single 158, despite being pretty poor itself, is better than an ancient train not in service.

Highland37 · 11 Sep 2019

Here is Scotrail's reply to me through Facebook Messenger:

Our upgraded HST's are in service you can see the routes/times in our earlier post here > https://twitter.com/ScotRail/status/1171677593814413313?s=20 ^Ste

My reply "Sorry I mean why are all of the refurbished sets not in service? Aren't there eight now? Are the services on your tweet all worked by refurbished sets?"

Ah my apologies, we have seven at the moment but not all are in service. Three are currently in operation whilst the remainder are not diagrammed today this may be due to maintenance, our train planning crew would diagram each service overnight the day before with the available units given. ^Ste

Railperf · 11 Sep 2019

As has been posted above by those in the know - there is a backlog of examinations etc. Why and who is to blame - i don't know. I'm sure everyone is doing their best to get these and keep these in service.
There have clearly been some failures too. Someone posted that a refurb set was due back shortly which will probably improve matters - but maybe not instantly. And coupled with getting the failed units back in service and the exams done - i reckon things could improve over the next few days.
Does anyone know how many refurb and classics are out today out of the 12 planned diagrams?

GusB · 11 Sep 2019

Railperf said:
As has been posted above by those in the know - there is a backlog of examinations etc. Why and who is to blame - i don't know. Then there have clearly been some failures. Someone posted that a refurb set was due back shortly which will probably improve matters. And coupled with getting the failed units back in service and the exams done - i reckon things could improve over the next few days.
Does anyone know how many refurb and classics are out today out of the 12 planned diagrams?

I don't know which diagram it is, but there was definitely a (vocal!) HST on the 1A50 Inverness - Aberdeen service earlier.

Highland37 · 11 Sep 2019

Railperf said:
As has been posted above by those in the know - there is a backlog of examinations etc. Why and who is to blame - i don't know. I'm sure everyone is doing their best to get these and keep these in service.
There have clearly been some failures too. Someone posted that a refurb set was due back shortly which will probably improve matters - but maybe not instantly. And coupled with getting the failed units back in service and the exams done - i reckon things could improve over the next few days.
Does anyone know how many refurb and classics are out today out of the 12 planned diagrams?

Yes and it has also been said by those in the know, that the sets are

"knackered and falling to bits (both kinds!)

Railperf · 11 Sep 2019

Highland37 said:
Yes and it has also been said by those in the know, that the sets are

Are you referring to the classic sets or refurbs as falling apart?
I can understand the Classic's being in worst state of repair.
Surely Wabtec can't be sending refurbished kit up that is falling apart?
And how des that account for EMT / EMR achieving 25k miles MTIN on services that require much harder running and intensive use?
Scot rails units are no more falling apart than EMR and LNER HST's but both these fleets achieve much better reliability. So what's going on?

Railperf · 11 Sep 2019

43096 said:
You’re just using the period “spot” figures, though. The MAA (moving annual average) is a far better comparator.

The MAA's were still far better for LNER, EMT and XC all achieving more than 10k MTIN, compared to the spot figure of 6.5K MTIN for Scotrail.
Unfortunately Modern Railways is only publishing split figures on a regular basis for new stock.

43096 · 11 Sep 2019

Railperf said:
The MAA's were still far better for LNER, EMT and XC all achieving more than 10k MTIN, compared to the spot figure of 6.5K MTIN for Scotrail.
Unfortunately Modern Railways is only publishing split figures on a regular basis for new stock.

The ScotRail figure is pretty consistent with historic GWR performance, though.

Highland37 · 11 Sep 2019

Railperf said:
Are you referring to the classic sets or refurbs as falling apart?
I can understand the Classic's being in worst state of repair.
Surely Wabtec can't be sending refurbished kit up that is falling apart?
And how des that account for EMT / EMR achieving 25k miles MTIN on services that require much harder running and intensive use?
Scot rails units are no more falling apart than EMR and LNER HST's but both these fleets achieve much better reliability. So what's going on?

See post ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

Killingworth · 11 Sep 2019

Railperf said:
And how des that account for EMT / EMR achieving 25k miles MTIN on services that require much harder running and intensive use?
Scot rails units are no more falling apart than EMR and LNER HST's but both these fleets achieve much better reliability. So what's going on?

I have no direct experience of train operation but I don't find this too surprising. EMT and LNER depots and staff have been servicing and operating the same pool of trains for decades on the same routes. They'll have got to know the faults on every single one and how best to fix them. That's what you do when nursing old machinery and it's how some steam age stock kept running for almost a century - better not bring in the Isle of Wight, but maybe we should.

I expect, certainly hope, that as more experience builds up reliability will improve, but we shouldn't be deluded. It's being proved that running museum pieces will bring problems and the number of reserve units may have been under estimated.

My wife travelled on a XC refurbished unit recently and thought she was on a new train. Are Wabtec doing better with their upgrades?

Railperf · 11 Sep 2019

43096 said:
The ScotRail figure is pretty consistent with historic GWR performance, though.

Weren't GWR's figures hampered by ATP issues?

energol · 11 Sep 2019

There has been a massive overspend on diesel for the HST's because of miscalculations. Can't see them lasting much longer.

FtoE · 11 Sep 2019

The 18:54 Inverness to Waverley is a refurb - my first one!
What a difference from the non-refurbs, much more space and far more table seats. Toying with the idea of an upgrade....

route:oxford · 11 Sep 2019

energol said:
There has been a massive overspend on diesel for the HST's because of miscalculations. Can't see them lasting much longer.

How massive is massive?

More importantly, with the Scottish Government formally declaring a Climate Emergency in May this year isn't this a humiliating disaster for the people of Scotland?

The nation's flag carrier caught burning gallons of dirty diesel thanks to incompetent number crunchers.

43096 · 11 Sep 2019

Railperf said:
Weren't GWR's figures hampered by ATP issues?

Possibly, in part. But much more hampered by rank bad maintenance. The GWR 150s and 158s are the worst performing of those classes in the country, which tells its own story.

najaB · 11 Sep 2019

There's a refurb in the Dundee carriage sidings at the moment, not sure why.

snookertam · 11 Sep 2019

energol said:
There has been a massive overspend on diesel for the HST's because of miscalculations. Can't see them lasting much longer.

In what way? Have the required more diesel to operate than was thought to be required? Does this mean the trains themselves are too uneconomical to continue?

They'll need to continue until ScotRail can replace them with something else. Wonder if anyone has spare class 170s? What about any 185s?

BRX · 11 Sep 2019

energol said:
There has been a massive overspend on diesel for the HST's because of miscalculations. Can't see them lasting much longer.

If this is true (I'm sceptical) does the same apply for XC and GW?

Leisurefirst · 11 Sep 2019

Got an HST unexpectedly from Aviemore to Inverness this morning.
The power car was Scotrail liveried but the coaches still FGW inside and out.
Felt really weird and though it was nice as I miss seeing them pass by as I overlook the GW mainline after all these years it was all a bit of a faff getting everybody on and sat down for a short journey.
No wifi which can be really on that short journey as 4G cuts out and enjoyed the non HST journey back much better to be honest.
There was a camera crew at Inverness coming back filming presumably the departure of an HST leaving for Aberdeen.
They got off my Glasgow bound train at Carrbridge and legged it over the bridge for the (delayed like my morning service) incoming HST (fully liveried) to Inverness by the looks of it.

Highland37 · 11 Sep 2019

route:oxford said:
How massive is massive?

More importantly, with the Scottish Government formally declaring a Climate Emergency in May this year isn't this a humiliating disaster for the people of Scotland?

The nation's flag carrier caught burning gallons of dirty diesel thanks to incompetent number crunchers.

No. Nobody is humiliated by that.

Railperf · 11 Sep 2019

43096 said:
Possibly, in part. But much more hampered by rank bad maintenance. The GWR 150s and 158s are the worst performing of those classes in the country, which tells its own story.

Was it historically like that? And if so why? Penny pinching?

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