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Scottish Electrification updates & discussion

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GRALISTAIR

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That really means that Diesel Bi-modes aren't going to cut it so any partial electrification ideas will have to be focussed on battery powered units.

Not sure I necessarily agree. If and I know it is a big if, bimodes displaced from further English electrification could be a stopgap to replace the Inter7Cities HSTs
 
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Altnabreac

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Not sure I necessarily agree. If and I know it is a big if, bimodes displaced from further English electrification could be a stopgap to replace the Inter7Cities HSTs

I’d agree that Bi-Modes could be used as a stopgap and they could obviously survive post 2035 on fully electrified routes.

But the strategy makes clear that there will be no diesel operation post 2035 so partial electrification relying on diesel bi-modes is not going to be compliant with that ambition.
 

NotATrainspott

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I'm sure Hitachi or Stadler could whip up an electrodiesel InterCity/regional train designed for some or all of the diesel engines to be replaced with batteries later in life. That would satisfy today's need for diesel power and ensure that all options are open for the future.
 

CEN60

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City Union would be a good non-passenger infill. Probably pretty straightforward as I don’t think there are any over bridges apart from the enormous M74 Port Eglinton viaduct.

City and Union is on NR's radar for electrifiction!
 

Altnabreac

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City Union would be a good non-passenger infill. Probably pretty straightforward as I don’t think there are any over bridges apart from the enormous M74 Port Eglinton viaduct.

City and Union is on NR's radar for electrifiction!

Yes, non passenger wise I'd expect at least these 3 to get done:
City Union line
Larkfield junction - Langside junction
Edinburgh South Suburban

i'm sure there'll also be various freight terminals that are worth doing but will dependent on traffic patterns etc.
 

CEN60

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Yes, non passenger wise I'd expect at least these 3 to get done:
City Union line
Larkfield junction - Langside junction
Edinburgh South Suburban

i'm sure there'll also be various freight terminals that are worth doing but will dependent on traffic patterns etc.

South Suburban has been looked at in the past (and no doubt will be again & again etc) - it is currently on the most recent list of lines on NR's radar - especially after Sturgeon's recent announcement about electrification of Scotland Railways!
 
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JamesT

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Yes, non passenger wise I'd expect at least these 3 to get done:
City Union line
Larkfield junction - Langside junction
Edinburgh South Suburban

i'm sure there'll also be various freight terminals that are worth doing but will dependent on traffic patterns etc.

Wasn't there already a plan in place for electrifying the South Sub to provide a diversion for some other works?
 

Altnabreac

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Wasn't there already a plan in place for electrifying the South Sub to provide a diversion for some other works?

There's an expectation that it is high up the list of priorities (primarily due to creating passenger capacity at Waverley by diverting freight services out of the station) and I understand studies have been done but I don't think it has been confirmed as a funded scheme yet.
 

InOban

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It is intended to divert freight from the East coast ports to Mossend to run via the ECML and the Sub. However this requires a new grid feeder at Curriehill, which is up to the grid to schedule. I think it will be another 2-3 years (it may be stated in a post somewhere in the previous 122 pages!)
 

CEN60

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There's an expectation that it is high up the list of priorities (primarily due to creating passenger capacity at Waverley by diverting freight services out of the station) and I understand studies have been done but I don't think it has been confirmed as a funded scheme yet.

Someone at NR pointed out to me re diverting freight out of Waverley, that no real freight to speak of actually goes thru' Waverley (I don't actually know how valid this statement is though!)
 

Meerkat

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How is ‘no diesels at all’ going to work for freight, can a mainline loco carry enough battery power to do the shunting?
 

AndrewE

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How is ‘no diesels at all’ going to work for freight, can a mainline loco carry enough battery power to do the shunting?
No, but you can have a captive small battery-(or other-)powered engine in the terminal for that.
(Clue: the last version are still called "Diesel Shunting engines!")
 

route101

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Noticed some Vegetation clearence has been done beyond the end of the line at East Kilbride .
 

Meerkat

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No, but you can have a captive small battery-(or other-)powered engine in the terminal for that.
(Clue: the last version are still called "Diesel Shunting engines!")
Making all terminals have a shunter will brutalise the economics of freight
 

AndrewE

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Making all terminals have a shunter will brutalise the economics of freight
There are going to have to be a lot of changes in the future if decarbonisation is to progress, including - in this case - the extension of OLE and the wider use of more appropriate locos places in like container terminals.
If the financial regime wasn't so skewed in favour of road transport (which doesn't cover anything like all its costs if you include the externalities such as the health effects caused by diesel exhaust pollution) then the rail haulage of freight would be able to be organised more rationally.
Anyway I'm not sure it is as open-and-shut as you make out: An arriving main-line long-haul loco could go straight out again on the next train instead of wasting time pottering around a yard, and the same could be said for the drivers, as there must be a cost to achieving and maintaining route knowledge.
 

Meerkat

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Please correct me if I am wrong but many freight flows involve just the one train, there isn’t another train waiting to go. The loco waits for the train to be loaded/unloaded, possible with some midpoint shunting around if the loading pad is small, then takes that train out...with the siding then quiet for days.
I can’t see a politically acceptable way of unskewing freight transport. Rail cannot replace most road haulage and any increase in costs on road freight will go straight through to consumer products - which isn’t a good way of getting elected.
 

Southsider

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First small steps towards East Kilbride electrification

https://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/residents-invited-to-find-out-more-about-tree-cutting

"Ahead of work to cut back trees and vegetation on the railway between East Kilbride and Glasgow, Network Rail is inviting local people to ‘drop-in’ to find out more about the work.
Clearing the trees and vegetation along the eleven-mile railway corridor will begin in September and will enable further site and geological investigation(SI/GI) which will inform proposals for future investment in the railway. (my bold)
As well as vegetation clearance, this work will include a general tidy up and will address any issues with fencing uncovered as the vegetation is cleared. It will be delivered in a combination of both day and night time working, including at weekends."
I attended one of the drop in sessions hosted by Network Rail this week and talked to one of the project staff. As stated in the circular, the clearance work is to facilitate surveys to provide costed options for improvements to services, particularly with regard to capacity.
There are three aspects being examined:
1. Doubling of the line between Busby and East Kilbride. Although only single track there is space for a second along most of the route (there were photos and plans to show this).
2. Electrification from Muirhouse to East Kilbride.
3. Provision for eight car trains. This would entail platform lengthening at all stations except Central.
The timescale is to submit options to Transport Scotland in approximately eighteen months.
 

smtglasgow

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Doubling of the line between Busby and East Kilbride

What would be the minimum redoubling needed to offer a robust 15 minute frequency up to EK? Could they get away with leaving some sections single? Can’t help feeling more trains would be better than lengthening platforms for 8 cars (expensive, disruptive and unnecessary when you’re already able to run 6 cars) – but presumably this runs into the familiar story about lack of capacity in and out of Central Station. The EK line is real success story; electrification, new trains and a better service would unlock even more growth.
 
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route101

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What would be the minimum redoubling needed to offer a robust 15 minute frequency up to EK? Could they get away with leaving some sections single? Can’t help feeling more trains would be better than lengthening platforms for 8 cars (expensive, disruptive and unnecessary when you’re already able to run 6 cars) – but presumably this runs into the familiar story about lack of capacity in and out of Central Station. The EK line is real success story; electrification, new trains and a better service would unlock even more growth.

Yeah even every 20 mins would be a great step .
 

route101

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I attended one of the drop in sessions hosted by Network Rail this week and talked to one of the project staff. As stated in the circular, the clearance work is to facilitate surveys to provide costed options for improvements to services, particularly with regard to capacity.
There are three aspects being examined:
1. Doubling of the line between Busby and East Kilbride. Although only single track there is space for a second along most of the route (there were photos and plans to show this).
2. Electrification from Muirhouse to East Kilbride.
3. Provision for eight car trains. This would entail platform lengthening at all stations except Central.
The timescale is to submit options to Transport Scotland in approximately eighteen months.
Wonder if thats 8 car 156s ?
 

Altnabreac

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I attended one of the drop in sessions hosted by Network Rail this week and talked to one of the project staff. As stated in the circular, the clearance work is to facilitate surveys to provide costed options for improvements to services, particularly with regard to capacity.
There are three aspects being examined:
1. Doubling of the line between Busby and East Kilbride. Although only single track there is space for a second along most of the route (there were photos and plans to show this).
2. Electrification from Muirhouse to East Kilbride.
3. Provision for eight car trains. This would entail platform lengthening at all stations except Central.
The timescale is to submit options to Transport Scotland in approximately eighteen months.

Excellent news. Looks like the Total Route Modernisation style approach that I’ve been advocating for a while.

8 x 23m carriages at all stations needs to be the standard approach for all Central Scotland stations. Until the route can justify this you can’t be using up precious Terminal capacity by increasing frequencies.

East Kilbride in my view will justify all 3 of these upgrades and a reliable 15 minute interval service is needed. I’m reasonably convinced that most of not all of the branch will need to be double track to do so reliably, especially if the intention is to reduce dwell at the Glasgow Central end.
 

Southsider

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18 months to submit options doesn’t sound as though anything is going to start imminently.
I did question that and he said that could change if Transport Scotland raised the priority. I guess that’s where the politicians and what pressure they bring to bear come into it.
 

Tobbes

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Excellent news. Looks like the Total Route Modernisation style approach that I’ve been advocating for a while.

8 x 23m carriages at all stations needs to be the standard approach for all Central Scotland stations. Until the route can justify this you can’t be using up precious Terminal capacity by increasing frequencies.

East Kilbride in my view will justify all 3 of these upgrades and a reliable 15 minute interval service is needed. I’m reasonably convinced that most of not all of the branch will need to be double track to do so reliably, especially if the intention is to reduce dwell at the Glasgow Central end.
Very sensible if this goes ahead in this form. At the risk of encouraging crayons, are there any proposals to extend the line from EK?
 

deltic08

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Very sensible if this goes ahead in this form. At the risk of encouraging crayons, are there any proposals to extend the line from EK?
What is the trackbed like and how far would you want to extend? From google earth it looks to be covered in houses immediately east of the station unless it went into tunnel and then comes the question about electrification clearances.
 

Altnabreac

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Very sensible if this goes ahead in this form. At the risk of encouraging crayons, are there any proposals to extend the line from EK?

It's very difficult in terms of buildings on trackbed to extend directly from EK and the vast majority of demand is towards Glasgow so no real prospect of this.
 

Tobbes

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It's very difficult in terms of buildings on trackbed to extend directly from EK and the vast majority of demand is towards Glasgow so no real prospect of this.
Thanks, I assumed you have a bored tunnel from the end of the current platforms, but I was at something of a loss where it run to, other than the other side of EK and down to Hamilton, which seemed extremely expensive for something that a good bus system in EK could probably equally well serve.
 

Bald Rick

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18 months to submit options doesn’t sound as though anything is going to start imminently.

One big lesson learnt from other electrification projects is not to start until you’re ready! There’s an awful lot of planning to do first.
 

GRALISTAIR

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One big lesson learnt from other electrification projects is not to start until you’re ready! There’s an awful lot of planning to do first.
ABSOLUTELY - probably the biggest lesson learned. Politicians knee jerked, Network Rail were so grateful to be getting electrification again, hardly any planning - huge cost overruns - MUST NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN
 
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