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Why didn’t BR order class 455s for South Eastern?

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Peter Mugridge

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As I understand it, quite simply, the money ran out - i.e. the Treasury did not authorise the expenditure. There was certainly a plan to order new stock for the South eastern Division at around the time the 508s were being introduced; that would have tied up very nicely timewise with a bigger order for 455s.
 

yorksrob

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Following on from the lack of money, they decided to refurbish the EPB's instead (which were a bit younger than the SUB's anyway).
 

Journeyman

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Does anyone know why the 455s ended up on Waterloo and Victoria services by the mid 80s but Kent services still made use of the 4-EPBs?

Originally the 455s were only intended for the Western section - some were deployed onto the Central section following reductions in services. Basically, there wasn't enough cash for new or refurbished stock everywhere, and the priority was getting rid of the remaining SUBs at the time, so some of the EPBs displaced from the Western section got rid of the SUBs on the Central.

BR's idea was to try and spread benefits of investment as much as possible without any area feeling particularly hard done by, so originally the refurbed EPBs went to the Central section, and the Eastern section got refurbished CEPs.
 

Terry Tait

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I've often wondered why express versions of the 455s weren't considered, a sort of 3rd rail version of a 317.
 

Journeyman

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I've often wondered why express versions of the 455s weren't considered, a sort of 3rd rail version of a 317.

When the 317s were being built in the early eighties, there wasn't a need for stock like that on the Southern. A very large fleet of 4-VEPs had been built, probably larger than necessary, and they were only between 6 and 13 years old in 1980. The CEPs were being refurbished to modern standards, the BIGs and CIGs were also nowhere near withdrawal age, and service cuts had made a lot of HAPs redundant anyway. No new lines were being electrified either, so the Southern's existing long-distance fleet was big enough, and the aging suburban fleet was the priority for investment.
 

Journeyman

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I wondered that about the 456's. Thought they would make ideal 4-car medium distance trains. But then again I suppose that's what the 319 was.

Yeah - the prime reason for Thameslink was the ability to reduce the overall number of new units needed to replace slam-door stock on the Southern and displace the 317s to cascade out older rolling stock elsewhere. By eliminating terminus dwell times in London, the overall size of the fleet required was smaller.
 

JonathanH

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I've often wondered why express versions of the 455s weren't considered, a sort of 3rd rail version of a 317.

There was at one point in the early 1990s an idea within NSE, documented in a supplement to RAIL about NSE, for additional 455-type cars containing first class and a toilet to be built to displace the 508 car from the 455/7s that might have made them suitable for outer suburban use - e.g. Reading line.
 

JonathanH

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A very large fleet of 4-VEPs had been built, probably larger than necessary

That's a bit of a moot point - it all depends on what services they intended to use them on. Each batch must have been ordered against a specific service. Some routes that ended up with suburban stock might have been appropriate for outer-suburban stock like VEPs.

194 VEPs probably made sense by the early 1990s once the non-gangwayed HAPs and slam door suburban stock had been seen off (although of course 19 of them lost their first class compartments for use on suburban services). However, it can be noted that Solent Link and East Grinstead electrification were both justified on the basis that no new stock was required so there must have been some slack in the fleet.
 

big all

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I wondered that about the 456's. Thought they would make ideal 4-car medium distance trains. But then again I suppose that's what the 319 was.
456 took weak field at 25mph rather than the normal 40mph so where geared for suburban rather main line
 

Sad Sprinter

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Which is interesting, because I’ve never been sure when NSE’s intended replacement for slam door stock on the Southern Region would have been. I know that the class 471 was meant to replace 4CEPs on Kent Lines, but would further batches have been built for the Central and Western Divisions in the latter part of the 90s?
 

Journeyman

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There was at one point in the early 1990s an idea within NSE, documented in a supplement to RAIL about NSE, for additional 455-type cars containing first class and a toilet to be built to displace the 508 car from the 455/7s that might have made them suitable for outer suburban use - e.g. Reading line.

Probably would have gone down quite well on Guildford via Cobham as well. I assume the plan would have included replacing the low back seating as well? I hope it did!

That's a bit of a moot point - it all depends on what services they intended to use them on. Each batch must have been ordered against a specific service. Some routes that ended up with suburban stock might have been appropriate for outer-suburban stock like VEPs.

194 VEPs probably made sense by the early 1990s once the non-gangwayed HAPs and slam door suburban stock had been seen off (although of course 19 of them lost their first class compartments for use on suburban services). However, it can be noted that Solent Link and East Grinstead electrification were both justified on the basis that no new stock was required so there must have been some slack in the fleet.

I'm really not sure why BR built so many VEPs. It's not really clear what the latter batches of them were for. The initial twenty were for stopping services on the Bournemouth line, then batches followed to replace the LAVs, BILs, HALs and CORs. They'd gone by 1972, but the VEPs were still being turned out until 1974, and it wasn't until somewhat later than that that the HAP withdrawals commenced. Certainly a lot of VEPs ended up being cascaded to replace HAPs, because service cuts in the late 70s and early 80s resulted in an outer-suburban fleet somewhat bigger than necessary.
 

yorksrob

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Probably would have gone down quite well on Guildford via Cobham as well. I assume the plan would have included replacing the low back seating as well? I hope it did!



I'm really not sure why BR built so many VEPs. It's not really clear what the latter batches of them were for. The initial twenty were for stopping services on the Bournemouth line, then batches followed to replace the LAVs, BILs, HALs and CORs. They'd gone by 1972, but the VEPs were still being turned out until 1974, and it wasn't until somewhat later than that that the HAP withdrawals commenced. Certainly a lot of VEPs ended up being cascaded to replace HAPs, because service cuts in the late 70s and early 80s resulted in an outer-suburban fleet somewhat bigger than necessary.

The later batch of VEP's was built specifically to take over semi-fast/stopper services in the South East, presumably because the full vestibule/corridor layout was more suited to the longer distance services. A lot of the HAP's migrated westward at that time. Whether the plan was to use more of them to supplement shorter distance services (had the traffic downturn not taken place) I don't know, however a lot were culled during the 1980's due to asbestos.
 

Journeyman

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The later batch of VEP's was built specifically to take over semi-fast/stopper services in the South East, presumably because the full vestibule/corridor layout was more suited to the longer distance services. A lot of the HAP's migrated westward at that time. Whether the plan was to use more of them to supplement shorter distance services (had the traffic downturn not taken place) I don't know, however a lot were culled during the 1980's due to asbestos.

Ah, this is making sense now. A lot of HAPs were downgraded to second class only in the mid-seventies, and moved onto suburban services, allowing SUBs to be withdrawn, so I guess that was the plan - after the last batch of BR-design EPBs in the early sixties, there was no SR suburban design in production. Building VEPs allowed an improvement on the South Eastern longer-distance stoppers, and provided a cascade to get rid of SUBs.

I suppose the downturn in traffic later on did it for the rest of the HAPs, although a few motor coaches ended up in EPBs.
 

nw1

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Which is interesting, because I’ve never been sure when NSE’s intended replacement for slam door stock on the Southern Region would have been. I know that the class 471 was meant to replace 4CEPs on Kent Lines, but would further batches have been built for the Central and Western Divisions in the latter part of the 90s?

An interesting "what could have been" had privatisation not took place: could we, somewhere around the millennium, have ended up with a set of new classes for the Southern, something like:

Class 471 - "Express Networker" - CIG replacement
Class 472 - "Buffet Networker", 471 with buffet
Class 473 - "Commuter Networker" - higher-density, 3x2 version of 471 - VEP replacement
Class 474 - two car version of the 473, to allow 6- and 10-car services, or even 2-car services for branches - essentially taking on the role provided by the HAPs before they disappeared in late 1991 (on the South Western, at least, the primary use of HAPs was boosting capacity on peak services otherwise formed of CIGs and VEPs)

... all of which were compatible with each other and with 465s - and which, if built, would still be dominating the Southern today?
 
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yorksrob

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Ah, this is making sense now. A lot of HAPs were downgraded to second class only in the mid-seventies, and moved onto suburban services, allowing SUBs to be withdrawn, so I guess that was the plan - after the last batch of BR-design EPBs in the early sixties, there was no SR suburban design in production. Building VEPs allowed an improvement on the South Eastern longer-distance stoppers, and provided a cascade to get rid of SUBs.

I suppose the downturn in traffic later on did it for the rest of the HAPs, although a few motor coaches ended up in EPBs.

The HAP's lasted in their complete form until the mid 1990's, albeit much depleted in numbers. Some supplemented Kent Coast peak hour services, and others on the North Kent line.

There were some soldiering on, on the Western and Central sections until then as well.
 

nw1

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Ah, this is making sense now. A lot of HAPs were downgraded to second class only in the mid-seventies, and moved onto suburban services, allowing SUBs to be withdrawn, so I guess that was the plan - after the last batch of BR-design EPBs in the early sixties, there was no SR suburban design in production. Building VEPs allowed an improvement on the South Eastern longer-distance stoppers, and provided a cascade to get rid of SUBs.

I suppose the downturn in traffic later on did it for the rest of the HAPs, although a few motor coaches ended up in EPBs.

The 1991 recession seemed to see off the last of the HAPs on the South Western, I remember one fateful day in late September 1991 hearing a whole series of announcements at Waterloo about how the length of a whole series of individual slam-door services would be cut for the winter timetable - and these reductitons in length seemed to be wholly due to the loss of HAPs (in some cases indirectly, e.g. I think there was one case of a 12VEP becoming an 8VEP because the 4VEP was needed to replace a 2x2HAP on another service)
 

nw1

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The HAP's lasted in their complete form until the mid 1990's, albeit much depleted in numbers. Some latsupplemented Kent Coast peak hour services, and others on the North Kent line.

There were some soldiering on, on the Western and Central sections until then as well.

Ah, sorry didn't realise they lasted that long, I thought they were gone by late 1991.
 

yorksrob

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Ah, sorry didn't realise they lasted that long, I thought they were gone by late 1991.

I'm a bit hazy about the south western at the time, however I'm sure I've seen a picture of on strengthening a Portsmouth line service in 94/95. Would have to check though.
 

nw1

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The later batch of VEP's was built specifically to take over semi-fast/stopper services in the South East, presumably because the full vestibule/corridor layout was more suited to the longer distance services. A lot of the HAP's migrated westward at that time. Whether the plan was to use more of them to supplement shorter distance services (had the traffic downturn not taken place) I don't know, however a lot were culled during the 1980's due to asbestos.

I do remember noticing that on the September 1986 Network Day (practically this day in history IIRC) the South Eastern, at least the "Chatham" division, did seem to employ a lot more VEPs on long-distance semi-fast services (Victoria to Ramsgate or Dover via Faversham) than the Central or SW division did on similarly semi-fast services - though whether that was normal or whether they just turned out more VEPs for higher capacity on Network Day I don't know. The Charing Cross semi-fasts I saw (the Ramsgate via Dover/Margate via Canterbury dividers, at Ashford) seemed to be pure CEP though on the same day, so maybe the VEPs were normal for the Victoria semi-fast services.

Did a circular Waterloo East - Canterbury W - Canterbury E - Victoria route on that day and the number of VEPs on the return leg on both stopping and semi-fast services was noticeable.

Later, I also recall some peak-time "Chatham line" semi-fasts out of Victoria, in early January 1996, were also VEPs, but was only there for an hour or so in the early evening peak so didn't observe the off-peak patterns. Would be interesting to know whether VEPs on semi-fasts were commonplace on the Chatham line in NSE days.
 
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nw1

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I'm a bit hazy about the south western at the time, however I'm sure I've seen a picture of on strengthening a Portsmouth line service in 94/95. Would have to check though.

I'm pretty confident the last HAPs were in 1991, and they were absent in 1992/93, though it is just possible they may have snuck back around that time as there was a period around 1994 when I wasn't using the South Western too much.
 

Journeyman

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I'm a bit hazy about the south western at the time, however I'm sure I've seen a picture of on strengthening a Portsmouth line service in 94/95. Would have to check though.

They'd definitely gone from the Western section by then. The last few left - all operating in four-car formations - were all on the Eastern section with the last EPBs by then.

Last trip I remember taking on a HAP on the Western Section was from Surbiton to Portsmouth in 1989. I made the mistake of travelling in the motor coach, and first thing I did after arriving in Portsmouth was run to the toilets!
 
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yorksrob

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I'm pretty confident the last HAPs were in 1991, and they were absent in 1992/93, though it is just possible they may have snuck back around that time as there was a period around 1994 when I wasn't using the South Western too much.

They'd definitely gone from the Western section by then. The last few left - all operating in four-car formations - were all on the Eastern section with the last EPBs by then.

Last trip I remember taking on a HAP on the Western Section was from Surbiton to Portsmouth in 1989. I made the mistake of travelling in the motor coach, and first thing I did after arriving in Portsmouth was run to the toilets!
You're probably correct.

I remember travelling on some on the South Eastern suburban area towards the end of the EPB era.

The last time I saw one at Ashford would have been the very early 1990's.

Whilst it could be a long journey in the motor coach, the HAP's still had more toilet facilities than the 455's (which they insisted in putting on Reading services when I lived down there).
 
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AY1975

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The South Eastern has historically been tight for gauge clearance, so I believe that there are also issues to do with restricted clearances on some routes on the SE that would preclude the operation of 455s, 456s or other Mark 3-based stock, hence the decision to order the Class 465/466 Networkers rather than a Class 455/456 derivative.
 

JonathanH

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The South Eastern has historically been tight for gauge clearance, so I believe that there are also issues to do with restricted clearances on some routes on the SE that would preclude the operation of 455s, 456s or other Mark 3-based stock, hence the decision to order the Class 465/466 Networkers rather than a Class 455/456 derivative.

No, by the time the South Eastern suburban routes got to the top of the queue for fleet replacement, NSE had been going a few years. This meant they were ready to start with a brand new train, rather than perpetuate the Mk3 derived production line - hence the Networker.

There was a lot of development work which went into Networker using the redundant class 210 vehicles.
 

Dr_Paul

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Also they had toilets from new which were removed by Southern.

That must explain the part of the side of one carriage which has no windows, except a little one at the end. Judging by the length of it, it must have been a pretty large khazi!
 
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