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What is the cause of unreliability of Vivarail Class 230 trains?

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ac6000cw

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Bletchleyite

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ac6000cw said:
There seems to be an assumption recently on this thread that it's the Ford diesel *engines* that are the root cause of the unreliability problems - does anyone actually *know* that?
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I got into a Twitter conversation with Vivarail yesterday in which they specifically said that the engines themselves were not the issue, rather (implicitly) the design/layout of the raft itself.
 
Mikey C

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Certainly a big difference you'd imagine between the cooling you get from being installed at the front of a van/truck behind a radiator grille to being installed buried underneath a train carriage...
 
Railperf

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Bletchleyite said:
I got into a Twitter conversation with Vivarail yesterday in which they specifically said that the engines themselves were not the issue, rather (implicitly) the design/layout of the raft itself.
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Yes, i saw that. They said that there is a shortage of gensets. They have said the engines are fine, so it must be an issue with other components that make up the genset. Unless somebody details what is causing the fault..it is just guesswork, but cooling issues have been suffered by all the bi-mode manufacturers - STADLER / HITACHI.
 
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cjmillsnun

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Mikey C said:
Certainly a big difference you'd imagine between the cooling you get from being installed at the front of a van/truck behind a radiator grille to being installed buried underneath a train carriage...
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And the cooling system (radiators etc) would be different to take that into account.
 
158820

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Just to say I sampled 230003 for the 1st time yesterday and all was running fine. Really liked it.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Railperf said:
Yes, i saw that. They said that there is a shortage of gensets. They have said the engines are fine, so it must be an issue with other components that make up the genset. Unless somebody details what is causing the fault..it is just guesswork, but cooling issues have been suffered by all the bi-mode manufacturers - STADLER / HITACHI.
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Has there been an issue with Stadler? Surprises me, as that is basically a locomotive with lots of space for air circulation, not an oversized engine crammed underneath.

The "shortage of gensets" thing is interesting. While they are intended to be easy to swap, this kind of implies that they are unreliable/needing of servicing enough that they need to be swapped regularly - that was not what I understood the idea to be, more that they could be swapped for servicing every couple of months or whatever the spec requires.

It's almost sounding a bit like the way a Series Land Rover can be serviced and repaired in the field with a hammer and a set of Whitworth spanners (or whatever the saying was), but a Toyota Land Cruiser doesn't need to be.
 
61653 HTAFC

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I thought that Vivarail were in the process of developing new Caterpillar diesel gensets to replace the Ford Duratorc ones currently used. If the gensets aren't the problem, why would they be doing so?
 
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Bletchleyite

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61653 HTAFC said:
I thought that Vivarail were in the process of developing new Caterpillar diesel gensets to replace the Ford Duratorc ones currently used. If the gensets aren't the problem, why would they be doing so?
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Potentially they might be cheaper, either to build (because you only need one per coach) or to maintain (half the number of engines to service)?
 
ashkeba

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Bletchleyite said:
Has there been an issue with Stadler? Surprises me, as that is basically a locomotive with lots of space for air circulation, not an oversized engine crammed underneath.
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I suspect a locomotive in the middle of the train has less ability to scoop air than at the end but I think Stadler service failures are currently suspected to be electronics problems not engines, from what I read on https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/abellio-greater-anglia-class-755s-regional-trains.148431/ - also, the first Stadler trains into service have double the power-to-weight of what they replace so might be able to lose an engine and keep time. https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-regional-trains.148431/page-125#post-4184165

It's difficult to see how a Stadler-style mid-train full-height engine unit would fit the current Class 230 applications.
 
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I suspect the problem is probably both - the engines are probably borderline up to the task, but the design of the raft renders them ineffective at doing so.
 
DarloRich

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DarloRich

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Apparently a number of "managers" are trapped at Bedford. I hope they get the replacement bus back and see what thier service is really like!
 
andythebrave

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Bear with me here.

Today I started work at 0630 and rushed through the day so that I could finish in time to be home by 1730.

Drove over 100 miles and walked over 7.

Thoroughly exhausted, I did, nevertheless, toddle off down to the station to catch one of the 'meet the manager' services.

Regrettably, I put faith in the ability of whatever bod's job it is to send out a fully functioning train on this of all days and didn't, for the first time ever, consult RTT.

Big mistake.

Cancelled.

Again.

I mean, is there an option to return them under the Sale of Goods Act as not fit for purpose?
 
andythebrave

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Incidentally, I did note that during the extensive testing/crew training prior to service introduction the test runs skipped most station stops. This seems to the layman to be unrepresentative of actual operating conditions.
 
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I think it has reached the point where they should seriously consider a planned bus replacement (with a fast, semifast and slow bus) for 2-3 months for Vivarail to do some more testing and solve the problem - or for them to take their units and withdraw with something else (e-Pacers? 150s/153s as a swap for something else?) got in instead. At least if you knew it was buses you could rely on it.
 
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Greybeard33

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Bletchleyite said:
I think it has reached the point where they should seriously consider a planned bus replacement (with a fast, semifast and slow bus) for 2-3 months for Vivarail to do some more testing and solve the problem - or for them to take their units and withdraw with something else (e-Pacers? 150s/153s as a swap for something else?) got in instead. At least if you knew it was buses you could rely on it.
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Would there be a worthwhile improvement in replacement bus journey time if the bus stopped on the main road through each village, rather than diverting to the station?
 
ashkeba

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Greybeard33 said:
Would there be a worthwhile improvement in replacement bus journey time if the bus stopped on the main road through each village, rather than diverting to the station?
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Playing with route planners suggests almost 10 minutes could be saved doing that in Woburn Sands and Aspley Guise but elsewhere it looks it either would not serve something important by the station or you end up going very close to the station anyway.
 
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Bletchleyite said:
I think it has reached the point where they should seriously consider a planned bus replacement (with a fast, semifast and slow bus) for 2-3 months for Vivarail to do some more testing and solve the problem - or for them to take their units and withdraw with something else (e-Pacers? 150s/153s as a swap for something else?) got in instead. At least if you knew it was buses you could rely on it.
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I think they probably should run the bus continuously regardless, even if the trains are in passenger service. Organising bus replacements on a daily basis but ad-hoc whenever the units fail is going to cause unnecessary delay if it's known the units will fail beforehand.
 
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