Merseyrail: funding for Headbolt Lane and St James stations

61653 HTAFC · 7 Sep 2019

Ianno87 said:
....would third rail to Headbolt Lane ever be authorised if Skelmersdale were a credible future proposition?

Possibly, if Headbolt Lane is considered a better location for voltage and/or pickup method changeover than Kirkby itself. It'll depend on all kinds of things which are all above my pay-grade, but a short DC extension probably wouldn't need any additional grid supply, whilst all the way to Skem probably would.

There's also presumably an option for 750v DC overhead on extensions if 3rd-rail isn't greenlit. Saves having to fit transformers, but introduces another "non-standard" element.

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507021 · 7 Sep 2019

AndrewE said:
Thanks, I was going to Birkenhead Park (a fabulous destination, by the way) so I guessed that was where I got off! Conway Park it was.

No problem.

507021 · 7 Sep 2019

David Emmott said:
It seems to be part of gentrifying to label downmarket suburbs 'villages'. In this case, Kirkby Village would be accurate as before the new town the scattered rural community tended to gather around the station. Maybe it will inspire developers and estate agents even more. Instead of Headbolt Lane, Northwood and Tower Hill is fine (Northwood alone if double barrelled station names are out of fashion).

Yeah, I think Northwood would be the best name for a station in that area.

On another note, I'm disappointed the proposed station in the Vauxhall area isn't going ahead.

jamesst · 8 Sep 2019

61653 HTAFC said:
Possibly, if Headbolt Lane is considered a better location for voltage and/or pickup method changeover than Kirkby itself. It'll depend on all kinds of things which are all above my pay-grade, but a short DC extension probably wouldn't need any additional grid supply, whilst all the way to Skem probably would.

There's also presumably an option for 750v DC overhead on extensions if 3rd-rail isn't greenlit. Saves having to fit transformers, but introduces another "non-standard" element.

Sadly I imagine itll still be done on the cheap, no redoubling done and trains just passing at Fazakerley

Meerkat · 8 Sep 2019

Why wouldn’t there be any dc to ac conversions? Presumably the dc equipment will wear out sometime and if you have to put in an AC supply for extensions......
On the other side I assume the Merseyrail trains are too short to get any real acceleration gains from AC?

frodshamfella · 8 Sep 2019

Ianno87 said:
....would third rail to Headbolt Lane ever be authorised if Skelmersdale were a credible future proposition?

Whats the big deal with 3rd rail.its all over London and SE ?

Camden · 8 Sep 2019

frodshamfella said:
Whats the big deal with 3rd rail.its all over London and SE ?

The real question is more why are some people so dead against Liverpool expanding its metropolitan railways.

The ORR haven't helped with their ludicrous (and London-centric) position on the matter, but even that isn't unassailable.

61653 HTAFC · 8 Sep 2019

frodshamfella said:
Whats the big deal with 3rd rail.its all over London and SE ?

There's an oft-cited myth that no new third-rail installations will be permitted due to safety concerns. Whilst permission for new third-rail might be difficult, there's nothing specific to rule it out. Modern technology such as switchgear which ensures the rail is only "live" whilst a train is in section would be one example of mitigation of the perceived risks of third-rail.

Elecman · 8 Sep 2019

61653 HTAFC said:
There's an oft-cited myth that no new third-rail installations will be permitted due to safety concerns. Whilst permission for new third-rail might be difficult, there's nothing specific to rule it out. Modern technology such as switchgear which ensures the rail is only "live" whilst a train is in section would be one example of mitigation of the perceived risks of third-rail.

You are going need lots of expensive dc switchgear to minimise the lengths of exposed 3 rd rail when a train is in section, so not financially worth it. Nor is the idea of fully shrouding the 3rd rail. It needs the ORR to rethink its ludicrous position so obvious 3rd. infills / extensions can be carried out at reasonable cost.

Meerkat · 8 Sep 2019

ORR won’t change their mind unless a politician tells them to.
In this instance that wouldn’t be a huge political risk - how many people die on third rail without serious contributory negligence (ie sad face family on the front of the Daily Mail decrying cost cutting politicians)

WatcherZero · 8 Sep 2019

61653 HTAFC said:
There's an oft-cited myth that no new third-rail installations will be permitted due to safety concerns. Whilst permission for new third-rail might be difficult, there's nothing specific to rule it out. Modern technology such as switchgear which ensures the rail is only "live" whilst a train is in section would be one example of mitigation of the perceived risks of third-rail.

Its not a myth, just being a little over egged. Officially there is a presumption against further 3rd rail electrification without the benefits being superior to the alternatives and when proposing any 3rd rail infrastructure the alternatives are required fully costed and examined. There are more stringent safety requirements which affect the cost, for example the requirement newbuild for complete over 6ft opaque barrier fencing along the alignment to keep people off the tracks whereas overhead you can use simple fencing.

https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0017/17621/dc-electrification-policy-statement.pdf

Elecman · 8 Sep 2019

I didn’t think the 6 ft fencing had to be opaque but it certainly has to be unclimbable

Skie · 8 Sep 2019

Meerkat said:
As dc extension is ruled out and batteries have been ruled out on the new trains.....how are the extensions supposed to work?

Batteries haven't been ruled out.

Djgr · 9 Sep 2019

My guess is that if Overhead is a requirement then Headbolt Lane won't happen, as it is too much faff.

I know that there is political pressure on the Wirral for Town Meadow Station between Moreton and Meols to progress.

Bletchleyite · 9 Sep 2019

Djgr said:
My guess is that if Overhead is a requirement then Headbolt Lane won't happen, as it is too much faff.

I know that there is political pressure on the Wirral for Town Meadow Station between Moreton and Meols to progress.

Shielded third rail is allowed, isn't it? For such a short extension, side shield boards should sort it, no?

61653 HTAFC · 9 Sep 2019

Djgr said:
My guess is that if Overhead is a requirement then Headbolt Lane won't happen, as it is too much faff.

I know that there is political pressure on the Wirral for Town Meadow Station between Moreton and Meols to progress.

Does MerseyTravel have a "Confusing Station Names" Committee? Not only do they have Kirkby (silent second 'k') and West Kirby, and Meols and Meols Cop, but they want to add St. James to James St., and Town Meadow to Town Green! :lol:

Meerkat · 9 Sep 2019

Skie said:
Batteries haven't been ruled out.

I thought the new trains had been ruled out for batteries after engineering investigation - something about cooling capacity?

urbophile · 9 Sep 2019

61653 HTAFC said:
Does MerseyTravel have a "Confusing Station Names" Committee? Not only do they have Kirkby (silent second 'k') and West Kirby, and Meols and Meols Cop, but they want to add St. James to James St., and Town Meadow to Town Green!

Also Liverpool Central and Birkenhead Central.

Djgr · 9 Sep 2019

61653 HTAFC said:
Does MerseyTravel have a "Confusing Station Names" Committee? Not only do they have Kirkby (silent second 'k') and West Kirby, and Meols and Meols Cop, but they want to add St. James to James St., and Town Meadow to Town Green!

And the two Meols are pronounced differently (Me-ols Cop and Mells)

frodshamfella · 11 Sep 2019

61653 HTAFC said:
There's an oft-cited myth that no new third-rail installations will be permitted due to safety concerns. Whilst permission for new third-rail might be difficult, there's nothing specific to rule it out. Modern technology such as switchgear which ensures the rail is only "live" whilst a train is in section would be one example of mitigation of the perceived risks of third-rail.

But isn't the DLR 3rd rail ?

Bletchleyite · 11 Sep 2019

frodshamfella said:
But isn't the DLR 3rd rail ?

Shielded third rail is permissible. I do wonder if this extends to shielded top-contact (where the conductor rail sits in a U shaped fibreglass container) - if so this could be an option.

61653 HTAFC · 11 Sep 2019

frodshamfella said:
But isn't the DLR 3rd rail ?

It is, but it's a bottom contact system with the rail shielded on the top and sides, which reduces risk to people on the tracks- be they maintenance staff or trespassers.

Camden · 12 Sep 2019

David Emmott said:
Also Liverpool Central and Birkenhead Central.

Conway Park. Which is neither a park, near a park nor in Conway.

Bletchleyite · 12 Sep 2019

David Emmott said:
Also Liverpool Central and Birkenhead Central.

What's wrong with Liverpool Central? It's located in the city centre of Liverpool. It's not the "Hauptbahnhof" (that being Lime St) but the UK doesn't use "Central" for that, unlike say the Netherlands. In the UK it means one of two things - it's in the centre, or it's one of the Great Central Railway's stations (in this case it's the former).

Statto · 12 Sep 2019

Camden said:
Conway Park. Which is neither a park, near a park nor in Conway.

But not far from Conway Street, which is where the Conway comes in, but answers on a postcard for Park bit.

Bletchleyite · 12 Sep 2019

Statto said:
But not far from Conway Street, which is where the Conway comes in, but answers on a postcard for Park bit.

According to Wikilies it's the name of a nearby redevelopment area.

Djgr · 12 Sep 2019

Bletchleyite said:
According to Wikilies it's the name of a nearby redevelopment area.

Not absolutely sure but Conway Street is probably named after the town in Wales (Anglicized), given it's only about 10 miles from the Welsh border.

Gareth · 12 Sep 2019

Bromborough
Bromborough Rake
Eastham Rake

urbophile · 12 Sep 2019

Bletchleyite said:
What's wrong with Liverpool Central? It's located in the city centre of Liverpool. It's not the "Hauptbahnhof" (that being Lime St) but the UK doesn't use "Central" for that, unlike say the Netherlands. In the UK it means one of two things - it's in the centre, or it's one of the Great Central Railway's stations (in this case it's the former).

Nothing 'wrong' with it, but it could be confusing being as most people (at least on the Liverpool side of the Mersey) will ask for a ticket to 'Central' without specifying which of the two. Also, although it is arguably the 'central' station of the Merseyrail network, it's not as you say the Hauptbahnhof. People buying tickets to Liverpool online can be confused if they don't realise that Lime Street and not Central is the mainline terminus. It's obviously a legacy of the old CLC terminus which it superseded.

Bletchleyite · 12 Sep 2019

David Emmott said:
Nothing 'wrong' with it, but it could be confusing being as most people (at least on the Liverpool side of the Mersey) will ask for a ticket to 'Central' without specifying which of the two. Also, although it is arguably the 'central' station of the Merseyrail network, it's not as you say the Hauptbahnhof. People buying tickets to Liverpool online can be confused if they don't realise that Lime Street and not Central is the mainline terminus. It's obviously a legacy of the old CLC terminus which it superseded.

It is, but it's also the most central Liverpool station, and the one that most people want to go to.

Merseyrail: funding for Headbolt Lane and St James stations

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