• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

Status
Not open for further replies.

DynamicSpirit

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2012
Messages
8,025
Location
SE London
Which every child over the age of 6 knows they can't do if no-deal is off the table. You can't negotiate if the opponent knows you have no choice but to take whatever they offer. Why do remainers persist in thinking everyone else doesn't see understand this patently obvious lie?

That theory only works if you view the EU as some giant conspiracy that's out to force us to capitulate to their terms. Yet, as far as I can see, they've been negotiating throughout the process in pretty good faith, with the aim of trying to come to a mutually agreeable accommodation. Ironically, it's Boris Johnson's Government that appears to have put almost zero effort into negotiating... until Parliament voted to prevent no-deal on Oct 31st, which now means Boris actually has a motive to try to get a deal.

Well, again, we all know that will just mean Remaining because those who want to leave want to do so for different reasons, while those that want to remain are basically united. If there's more than one leave option then remain will be the largest share of the vote even if the leave options are in the majority - again.

Not at all. If there's more than one leave option, it's perfectly possible - and indeed, sensible, to use an order-of-preference voting scheme, in which people number their options in order of preference, and the choice with the lowest votes gets eliminated and those votes redistributed according to voter's next preferences, until one option has a majority.

so the Remain camp will insist that they won and if anyone objects on any grounds, they will throw their toys out of the pram

I'm trying to debate with you rationally and logically. If you could refrain from making these kinds of insulting comments, it would be much appreciated. They contribute nothing to the debate and just convey the impression that you are not interested in sensible discussion.

The alternative is that there will be one option for leaving on the paper which will be carefully picked to be as unpalatable as possible - this is the EU's standard operating proceedure for re-running votes that went the wrong way. Only lunatics will vote for that and, again Remain gets what they wanted - to overturn the democratic referendum decision.

You are being too cynical - and frankly, you plain wrong. The EU does not control national referenda - those are arranged and decided upon by national Governments. I'm afraid your comment "this is the EU's standard operating proceedure for re-running votes that went the wrong way" is factually wrong - and I would say fairly typical of the kind of false propaganda that many Brexit groups routinely put out about the EU.

But for clarity... if (as I hope) we have a 2nd referendum that allows us to choose between Remain and an definite, specific leave option that can be implemented immediately if the vote goes that way - then personally I'd be very happy in principle for the particular choice of Leave option to be chosen by pro-Brexit MPs (if there was some way of arranging that).

That's not an advantage, IMO. I understand why the hopeless LibDems liked the idea, they only look good for about ten minutes at a time every 20 years. This at least gives them a slim chance that the election will fall during that sliver of a window.

The hopeless LibDems??? Wow, you do like lacing your arguments with little insults, don't you! (And I'm not even a LibDem supporter). Besides, as I recall, the fixed term Parliament act wasn't a particular LibDem thing, it was more an agreement to make sure that the coalition Government would last, and supported enthusiastically by both the LibDems and the Conservatives - made at a time when the UK had no experience of coalition Governments, and there was huge concern that it could break up very quickly.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

whhistle

On Moderation
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
2,636
Why should we suffer when there is no need to.
For the greater good?
The majority of the country wanted to leave. Why some individuals want to stop that, I don't know.
At least try to imagine if Remain won, and Leavers had done all what Remain have done.

It's a shame that Remain can't see their actions are causing so much bad feeling between people, families - it's tearing our country apart. But no, like Hitler and Maggie Thatcher, their thoughts must be steamrollered through at any cost - at the cost of our own country... instead of just accepting that most people want to leave and thus, that is what must happen.

"Suffer" in the short term (we've been suffering for 2 years already!) but get better in the long term. Most people are short sighted, until it comes to Train Drivers and pensions that is!
 

whhistle

On Moderation
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
2,636
Let us remember it was those 17.4 million people that chose to leave the EU without fully understanding the potential consequences and pitfalls.
Did they?
How do you know?
Did you ask all 17 million people?
Or are you just guessing?
Maybe some did know the pitfalls?
Maybe some knew it could be better without being in the EU?
Are you saying ALL Remain voters knew the pitfalls?

This is the problem I am finding over and over with Remain voters - they think they know what Leave voters know and don't know and believe their thoughts in this area are absolutely correct and will never think they are wrong, in any of it.
 

whhistle

On Moderation
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
2,636
  • Certain types of fresh food supply will decrease
  • Key ingredients may be in shorter supply
  • There will not be an overall shortage of food in the UK, but may be reduced availability and choice

I've said for ages our country needs a good war or something similar.
The sense of entitlement to be able to get whatever you want, when you want had led us down a bad path.
Helping people realise you can't just get anything you want will (hopefully) help people be more grateful for what they have.
I can see (in my pessimistic view) people simply turning to crime and rioting instead. Shame they think that is acceptable.
 

krus_aragon

Established Member
Joined
10 Jun 2009
Messages
6,042
Location
North Wales
Reading this makes you wonder how we ever survived in the hundreds of years before the EU. :rolleyes:
By not trading anywhere near as much with the outside world (except through companies with paramilitary forces, such as the British East India Company), and then by conquering overseas territories so we could control the terms of trade absolutely.

Oh, and by manufacturing the majority of the goods we want from scratch.
 

DynamicSpirit

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2012
Messages
8,025
Location
SE London
Reading this makes you wonder how we ever survived in the hundreds of years before the EU. :rolleyes:

We survived, but during the years when the then EEC existed and we weren't in it, we were undoubtedly slightly poorer - had slightly lower living standards - than we would've had if we'd been in it. And of course, the World was very different in the 60s - less interconnected, and there were fewer problems such as environmental degradation and global warming that needed action on an international scale. Today there are also vast numbers of people who live in a more 'international' way, having moved across Europe and who have families and friends spread around different countries - and basic common decency says we need to protect the rights of those people. That situation simply didn't exist to any significant extent 50 years ago - people were much more likely to stay in the country they were born in.

If we leave without a deal, the real problem isn't so much the long term situation as the sudden change. Industries, and most obviously the food industry, have evolved to take full advantage of, and therefore come to rely on, our seemless EU trade. That involves infrastructure and practices that have taken years, decades even, to slowly evolve. Given years, the food industry would certainly be able to evolve and develop the infrastructure to cope with full border controls and the UK being much more isolated as far as trade is concerned (although you'd still probably see food prices a bit higher as a result). But if we leave without a deal, we're not giving industries any time to adapt: We're expecting them to change literally overnight. That is clearly not possible, and something is therefore clearly going to break.
 

tomglazed

Member
Joined
3 Apr 2018
Messages
38
Reading this makes you wonder how we ever survived in the hundreds of years before the EU. :rolleyes:
Hundreds of years even decades before the EU existed was a totally different time and is very much comparing apples to oranges. Like it or not, we are in a time of globalisation and co-operation with other countries is near enough required and I like to think enriches the people it involves in so many ways, more than it detracts. Clearly there are a lot of people that believe it detracts more than it enriches.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,539
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Clearly there are a lot of people that believe it detracts more than it enriches.

It does both. I certainly don't believe that if something can be done or manufactured locally that it should be done or manufactured further away, personally. We need, certainly, to reduce food miles a lot. And we should not have allowed our manufacturing industry to be destroyed.
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
30,691
Location
Scotland
I certainly don't believe that if something can be done or manufactured locally that it should be done or manufactured further away, personally.
Anything can be manufactured locally. It just may not be possible to produce it at a price that makes any sense (either financial or environmental).
And we should not have allowed our manufacturing industry to be destroyed.
Yet, despite UK manufacturing being 'destroyed', we're the ninth-largest manufacturing nation in the world (source: https://www.themanufacturer.com/uk-manufacturing-statistics/)
 

Pyreneenguy

Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
327
It's looking more and more likely that a deal will materialize and that Parliament will attach a confirmatory vote to it's acceptance or remaining in the E.U. Given that Brexit has never been defined I don't think leavers can claim they are being robbed of their victory. Clearly a confirmatory vote is democracy in action and there is every chance that a deal will be acceptable to the majority.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,539
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
It's looking more and more likely that a deal will materialize and that Parliament will attach a confirmatory vote to it's acceptance or remaining in the E.U. Given that Brexit has never been defined I don't think leavers can claim they are being robbed of their victory. Clearly a confirmatory vote is democracy in action and there is every chance that a deal will be acceptable to the majority.

This would be the favourable outcome I reckon (given the original vote), but I personally fear it unlikely.
 

Pyreneenguy

Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
327
This would be the favourable outcome I reckon (given the original vote), but I personally fear it unlikely.

Until very recently I would have agreed but the situation has-favorably- evolved and I am a little more optimistic. If nothing else, Brexit has rekindled my interest in UK domestic politics and reading, daily, The Guardian :)
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
29,182
Location
Fenny Stratford
It's looking more and more likely that a deal will materialize and that Parliament will attach a confirmatory vote to it's acceptance or remaining in the E.U. Given that Brexit has never been defined I don't think leavers can claim they are being robbed of their victory. Clearly a confirmatory vote is democracy in action and there is every chance that a deal will be acceptable to the majority.

This would be the favourable outcome I reckon (given the original vote), but I personally fear it unlikely.

I am in agreement with Bletchleyite. I don't think we are close to a confirmatory vote at all.

interest in UK domestic politics and reading, daily, The Guardian

Pinko Leftie remanic traitor! ;)
 

Carlisle

Established Member
Joined
26 Aug 2012
Messages
4,122
Imperialism, slavery, war...
Absolutely, the current electioneering proposals of the far right in Israel to annex parts of the West Bank is a prime example of what a future without organisations like the EU could turn out, even in established democracies
 
Last edited:

krus_aragon

Established Member
Joined
10 Jun 2009
Messages
6,042
Location
North Wales
Anything can be manufactured locally. It just may not be possible to produce it at a price that makes any sense (either financial or environmental).
Raw material permitting, of course. We've got no chance of mining our own uranium, for example, we have to trade for it.

As another example, you could still mine copper ore on Anglesey, but you're unlikely to be able to find enough coal in the Malltraeth Marsh to smelt it. They used to ship it to Swansea for a reason. ;)
 

YorkshireBear

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2010
Messages
8,677
Raw material permitting, of course. We've got no chance of mining our own uranium, for example, we have to trade for it.

As another example, you could still mine copper ore on Anglesey, but you're unlikely to be able to find enough coal in the Malltraeth Marsh to smelt it. They used to ship it to Swansea for a reason. ;)
So are you suggesting we rely on good trading terms with other countries to maintain life as it currently is? Who knew.
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
30,691
Location
Scotland
So are you suggesting we rely on good trading terms with other countries to maintain life as it currently is? Who knew.
I've an even better idea - why not be in a customs union with the ones we do the most trade with and avoid any kind of barriers at all?
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
13,305
Location
Isle of Man
Reading this makes you wonder how we ever survived in the hundreds of years before the EU. :rolleyes:

It was called the British Empire, where we annexed countries and forced them to trade with us.

We didn't cope in the immediate post-war years, which is why we were begging to join the EEC long before they let us.

I'm going out on a limb here, I know, but I don't think a trade strategy that involves invading China would work so well these days...
 
Last edited:

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
13,305
Location
Isle of Man
I've an even better idea - why not be in a customs union with the ones we do the most trade with and avoid any kind of barriers at all?

Because we might have to compromise and even accept some rules we don't like. What would that do for our sovereignty?
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
13,305
Location
Isle of Man
Trouble is a large number of the 16.1 million who voted remain were just as ignorant as the 17.4 million who voted to leave, the reasoning of many going no further than opposition to any change.

I'm not sure "what we have largely works, only a complete imbecile would want to change it" is an ignorant position to take.

Remain's campaign was "it ain't broke, don't fix it". It wasn't Hard Remain, demanding Schengen and the Euro.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,539
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Remain's campaign was "it ain't broke, don't fix it". It wasn't Hard Remain, demanding Schengen and the Euro.

And it wasn't even that strong the basis on which some of us voted Remain. I voted Remain because, essentially, the EU and our membership largely worked as it was though with some faults, but the mess that would ensue from a Leave vote would be worse. I wasn't wrong.
 

superkev

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2015
Messages
2,682
Location
west yorkshire
Is there anyone on here who actually still believes we will be financially better off away from Europe?
Most of the Brexiteers I've spoken too seem to think it's worth being poorer to get away from Johnny foreigner who they seem to look on as inferior or even worse. Where have I heard that before.
K
 

StaffsWCML

Member
Joined
10 Apr 2019
Messages
221
And it wasn't even that strong the basis on which some of us voted Remain. I voted Remain because, essentially, the EU and our membership largely worked as it was though with some faults, but the mess that would ensue from a Leave vote would be worse. I wasn't wrong.


Exactly. Europe is far from perfect, and they would do well to listen to some of the concerns countries outside the big 2 have if they wish for it to remain a successful institution. However there is no better alternative, disconnecting from it is messy and unnecessary. I am not really sure what the supposed benefits are actually meant to be.
 

krus_aragon

Established Member
Joined
10 Jun 2009
Messages
6,042
Location
North Wales
So are you suggesting we rely on good trading terms with other countries to maintain life as it currently is? Who knew.
I didn't mean to suggest that. I was only pointing out (nitpickingly) that najaB's claim only holds true if you have access to the raw materials necessary. No more, no less.

I'll let everyone else make up their own minds about how to resolve that conundrum. 8-)
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
30,691
Location
Scotland
Is there anyone on here who actually still believes we will be financially better off away from Europe?
During the referendum campaign it was argued that we would have an easy deal with Europe that would allow us to trade on the same terms as currently (having our cake) while also being able to negotiate fantastic new deals with the rest of the world (eating our cake).

Now with the publication of Yellowhammer it appears we'll have less cake, it will take longer to get it and it may be significantly more expensive.

I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out in the end that there's no cake at all.
 

nidave

Member
Joined
12 Jul 2011
Messages
923
Because we might have to compromise and even accept some rules we don't like. What would that do for our sovereignty?
Didnt the rules we didnt like from the EU (i.e. things the UK voted against) include things like clean beaches, ensuring drinking water is clean to drink, enviromantal targets... etc. spot a theme there.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top