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Northern Ticket Machine Update Issues

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hwl

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Clearly this forum is unrepresentative then.

The thing is, if I want to make a complex journey, reserve seats, consider different routes etc I will do this in advance on line. If I am just rocking up at the station it is because I just want to buy a ticket and get on the next train. That should be the primary functionality of ticket machines on stations. The upgrade has made the primary functionality less user friendly and added features that the vast majority of users neither want nor need.

And of course if half a dozen commuters end up stuck behind the one person who is trying to figure out a complex journey, the benefit to the one is outweighed by the disbenefit to the many. A reduction in net utility, as Jeremy Bentham might have said. Please return things to how they were.
Volume of feedback good / indifferent /bad is never a representative sample of user experiences or of the impact.
 
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thejuggler

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If Northern truly believe that the changes made are an improvement and that they don't significantly increase interaction times they should give a commitment of the maximum amount of time a passenger is expected to queue for TVMs before giving a right to buy on the train.

This is the exact question asked when I complained to Northern about the long interaction times and lengthy queues.

Needless to say I received a standard stock answer response to my concerns (the new system is all for my benefit) about the new system, but a response to this specific question was of course ignored.

This is standard practice for Northern. Give the customer the stock answer prepared for any question asked. In one case I responded thanking them for the stock response, but not actually answering what I asked, so I tried the question again. I have never received a response.
 

hwl

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If Northern truly believe that the changes made are an improvement and that they don't significantly increase interaction times they should give a commitment of the maximum amount of time a passenger is expected to queue for TVMs before giving a right to buy on the train.
That would need some encouragement from higher up the food chain to force Northern to do this!

Possibly an ideal topic for GS to answer questions on during his first TSC hearing/grilling?:lol:
 

hwl

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This is the exact question asked when I complained to Northern about the long interaction times and lengthy queues.

Needless to say I received a standard stock answer response to my concerns (the new system is all for my benefit) about the new system, but a response to this specific question was of course ignored.

This is standard practice for Northern. Give the customer the stock answer prepared for any question asked. In one case I responded thanking them for the stock response, but not actually answering what I asked, so I tried the question again. I have never received a response.
Most TOCs have used an AI email /letter response system for several years that puts chunks of pre-written text together that rarely answers questions because they can't afford the staff to deal with correspondence. Early on it was quite easy to get entertaining responses generated by asking some odd things then coping their response to an MP...
 

Kingspanner

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This morning the Ticket Machine at Dinsdale finally managed to sell me a 7 day season, in very few steps, without demanding a postcode. Its a miracle.
Of course as I've said elsewhere TPE and Northern then dropped the ball at MBR and I was delayed 70 minutes.
 

Kaydee

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Hi, we are working on the first screen for 'popular destination/ticket combinations', so my apologies your friend found it rather difficult to find the intended destination. Same with the second screen, a few errors have crept in, which is why Walsden, not Walkden was showing. The Promise to Pay feature needs to capture the intended journey so we can track the conversion to actual tickets purchased, hence why once you have selected the intention to require a promise to pay permit, the machine requests to tell it the journey you are making.
But if I'm stuck behind three girls separately trying to buy tickets and my train is coming in, how do I quickly get a Permit to Travel? This is exactly what happened to me a few weeks ago (and before the TVM software at my local station was updated) How in a matter of 10 seconds or so do I enter where I'm travelling to, on which train (and back), the fact I have a railcard, I don't want a Plusbus, etc. etc. ......... Please think through to the real situations that can occur. ("use cases" in IT jargon!)
 

xotGD

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This morning I counted how many presses I needed to make to buy my ticket.

22

It used to be no more than 10.

Progress.
 

Bletchleyite

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But if I'm stuck behind three girls separately trying to buy tickets and my train is coming in, how do I quickly get a Permit to Travel? This is exactly what happened to me a few weeks ago (and before the TVM software at my local station was updated) How in a matter of 10 seconds or so do I enter where I'm travelling to, on which train (and back), the fact I have a railcard, I don't want a Plusbus, etc. etc. ......... Please think through to the real situations that can occur. ("use cases" in IT jargon!)

You arrive at the station in plenty of time, not just "as your train is coming in", just as if it had a couple of ticket office windows with a short but not excessive queue at each. This is I suppose a culture change for Northern passengers who have been used to being able to pay on board if they wish, but is how it's been elsewhere on the network for years.
 

Bantamzen

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You arrive at the station in plenty of time, not just "as your train is coming in", just as if it had a couple of ticket office windows with a short but not excessive queue at each. This is I suppose a culture change for Northern passengers who have been used to being able to pay on board if they wish, but is how it's been elsewhere on the network for years.

One thing I have noticed on my morning commute is the change in habits of some of my fellow passengers. In the mornings I usually make my connection at Guiseley for Leeds (mainly due to the Bradford-Ilkley being the first of the day from Baildon*), and before the penalty fare scheme kicked in it wasn't unusual to see quite a few people arriving at the car park on the Ilkley bound side & launching themselves across the footbridge, literally with seconds before the train pulled in. Now the platform seems busier a good five minutes before the first Leeds (06:16) arrives, with just the odd straggler racing down the stairs.

The other thing I've noted there is that regular passengers are starting to get used to the new UI, admittedly Leeds Anytime returns are listed as favourites and being in the peak means no selecting of times, but even with other tickets that seem popular like Sheffield & Manchester regulars are becoming adept at getting their tickets out with speed.

Of course this is not to say more improvements are needed, as discussed up thread, especially for the more infrequent travellers, but people do start to get used to them even when there are too way button presses needed for many tickets. And I am also happy that the issue with MCards not correctly triggering renewals when placed in the reader seems to have been resolved, meaning a renewal in under 30 seconds.

(* As an aside, Baildon has always been a bit odd in that even before we had a TVM, passengers tended to arrive in good time for trains, myself included despite living literally a four minute walk from the station! Don't ask me why BTW!)
 

DC2001

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Has anyone else noticed that since the new software update the machines seem to be constantly out of order?- this is certainly the case at Blackrod. When it does work people are still taking ages using it with queues building up even at peak times, regulars are still struggling and slower than previously. The error message saying to speak to station staff is rather confusing as there are very rarely any staff!
 

YorksDMU

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Could there be an option for a quick ticket purchase along the following lines:

1: Destination.
2: Day of travel.
3: Ticket type.
4: Payment.

Would that be too simple I wonder?
 

Bantamzen

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Could there be an option for a quick ticket purchase along the following lines:

1: Destination.
2: Day of travel.
3: Ticket type.
4: Payment.

Would that be too simple I wonder?

In an ideal world, no it wouldn't be too simple. But this is UK railways circa 2019, with our wild & varied, and so impossibly complex ticketing structure, that even enthusiast hold regular forums to discuss the details. If there were fewer options, then a simple 4 step operation would work well, but even at stations where flows are fairly predictable the mixture of peak, off-peak, advance tickets means that if you make it too simple on screen there is a chance passengers may pay more than they need to. And if you reduce the options on tickets, you potentially increase the overall price to the customer. Rock, meet Hard Place.

One of the reasons cited for the change in UI was that many people were complaining that many ticket options simply weren't available on the previous version. But now they've added in the functionality, it has made the overall process more complicated. There will be somewhere a reasonable medium, but it will take time and a lot of trial and error I would imagine, especially as the UI has to be a one-size-fits-all, but also to serve a variety of different stations with different flow patterns. As someone who regularly design UIs for my applications, getting it "just right" is a dark art indeed. I wouldn't want the job of getting the perfect TVM UI built, well not without a serious amount of money involved!
 

LowLevel

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Hi Ian, my passengers from Dore and Totley advise me that the machine is struggling with button presses requiring several attempts to work and one reported only being offered singles when entering a return a journey with a senior railcard between Dore and Totley and Manchester Piccadilly.
 

SteveM70

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Now if Northern wanted to do something clever, you could have a customer number (similar to the number on a season ticket photo card) on a key fob like a Tesco clubcard, and then scanning it at the machine would bring up a list of that person’s frequently purchased tickets from the station the machine is at
 

Bletchleyite

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Now if Northern wanted to do something clever, you could have a customer number (similar to the number on a season ticket photo card) on a key fob like a Tesco clubcard, and then scanning it at the machine would bring up a list of that person’s frequently purchased tickets from the station the machine is at

A mobile phone app is a far better place to do that kind of thing than overcomplicating TVMs.
 

Bantamzen

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A mobile phone app is a far better place to do that kind of thing than overcomplicating TVMs.

Actually this is exactly what happens with the West Yorkshire MCard, put it into the reader and the first option that the UI throws up is to renew said card with the same as the previous purchase. And as the card retains at least a couple of previous renewals, it should be entirely possible to simply save a few favourite journeys on a Northern card, then display these when the card is inserted into the reader. The passenger then just selects the one they require, pays, loads new ticket onto machine a they have a close relative called Robert!
 

Kaydee

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You arrive at the station in plenty of time, not just "as your train is coming in", just as if it had a couple of ticket office windows with a short but not excessive queue at each. This is I suppose a culture change for Northern passengers who have been used to being able to pay on board if they wish, but is how it's been elsewhere on the network for years.
So to make a 15 minute journey on the train I now have to arrive 10 or 15 minutes before in case there is a queue at the TVM? I'm talking about small stations (of which Northern has many) where usually only a handful of passengers are joining the train. In my case there is a simple solution - go on the bus which is slower but "home to destination" is now the same. And it takes seconds, not minutes to pay for my journey! (and I don't need a smartphone either) If you want to frighten away the occasional traveller, Northern's TVM and "hostile environment" penalty fare regime is the ideal way to do it. Let alone tempt anyone out of their car.............
 

Killingworth

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So to make a 15 minute journey on the train I now have to arrive 10 or 15 minutes before in case there is a queue at the TVM? I'm talking about small stations (of which Northern has many) where usually only a handful of passengers are joining the train. In my case there is a simple solution - go on the bus which is slower but "home to destination" is now the same. And it takes seconds, not minutes to pay for my journey! (and I don't need a smartphone either) If you want to frighten away the occasional traveller, Northern's TVM and "hostile environment" penalty fare regime is the ideal way to do it. Let alone tempt anyone out of their car.............

However, many of us who use computers and/or smartphones have sussed out how to buy online and avoid having to collect or buy a paper ticket at all.

Unfortunately the websites and apps of the various TOCs can be confusing and deter. I bought East Midlands tickets for London and printed out at home. A journey on XC provided a QR code on the phone as did a recent trip to Edale on Northern. Today's TP journey to Barnetby required a TVM pick up despite using the app that has previously provided an electronic ticket for Piccadilly. Other websites are available!

Observation suggests confusion at our TVM has eased. It has provided a talking point as regulars offer friendly advice and guidance to those encountering it for the first time. The general comments are good from those clecting tickets, but rather less complimentary from those battling to buy a ticket. Without help I'd say half still board without a ticket.
 

exesoundtech

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Actually this is exactly what happens with the West Yorkshire MCard, put it into the reader and the first option that the UI throws up is to renew said card with the same as the previous purchase. And as the card retains at least a couple of previous renewals, it should be entirely possible to simply save a few favourite journeys on a Northern card, then display these when the card is inserted into the reader. The passenger then just selects the one they require, pays, loads new ticket onto machine a they have a close relative called Robert!

Which, it seems, is exactly what does happen if you've got a smart card with a number of expired tickets on it :)
 

PR1Berske

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I've not had a problem with the ticket machines until tonight. I knew that I wanted to buy a single from Manchester Victoria to Preston to catch the specific 20:05. The machine is programmed to suggest most popular destinations, none of which were Preston. When I selected Preston, it offered two earlier trains with multiple changes. When I tried to select the 20:05, it didn't want to co-operate at first.

So far I have fathomed out the machines and it's been fine. Not so much tonight.
 

Rail Ranger

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The saga of Navigation Road continues. Around 10 days ago I found about 10 Promise to Pay tickets scattered in an around the ticket machine. All had one thing in common. They said "Mytholmroyd" at the top. So presumably the TVM thinks it is at Mytholmroyd (hence why all of the Popular Destinations on the machine are on the Calder Valley line). The TVM presumably should have been installed at Mytholmroyd or has it been programmed incorrectly?
 

323235

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I had to help a lady at Manchester Piccadilly today - the machine was bringing up loads of Advance Singles that the machine wouldn't let her buy because it said reservations weren't available but were obviously mandatory - there were about 5 pages worth of advance singles to scroll through before the cheapest any operator walk on ticket (it didn't show the cheapest VT only for the selected train).

She was absolutely baffled (and so was I quite frankly but she was very pleased to receive assistance.
 

Jozhua

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Still having issues with touch registering on the new software.

Not really had many thoughts on the new machines while I was picking up reservations or using destinations on the common destinations section, however, when faced with purchasing a ticket from 'other destinations', it was quite a challenge, especially as it takes at least 4 presses to register.

The railcards section is quite a challenge, try and press 16-25 and it keeps giving me disabled...
 

Jonny

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The off-peak returns seem to have been buried in several layers of menu. At least for Chester-le-Street to Newcastle...
 

exesoundtech

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So it seems that C2C have started rolling out machines with similar functionality to the Northern ones (i.e. not just walk up tickets for travel now). Would appear that they are experiencing similar "challenges" with this from the feedback on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/search?q=c2c_rail machine &src=typed_query&f=live

From what I understand, they're from a different supplier to the Northern ones, but it's interesting to see lots of the same problems. Although having to enter the origin station on a TVM with no default option of "here" is a new one on me...:

https://twitter.com/MattGosling85/status/1182193962309869568
 

Rhinojerry

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Designed by people with too many brain cells.They just dont understand that we need quick and easy to use stuff.The old ones were great,quick n easy to use.s
Jozhua is correct,you have to press many rimes before it works if at all.Horrible,just buy on the train and tell conductor.it may make top brass do something,then again......
 

Bletchleyite

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Also, they don't take Amex. There's a good reason to buy on board!

I believe there are TOCs who don't take it at all due to the exorbitant merchant's fees which are far higher than credit card acceptance fees.

I know there are the extra service packages, but to be honest I'd rather have a Visa card (which WILL do nicely anywhere that isn't cash-only or Dutch) and good quality travel insurance, for instance.

And I'm not really one for loyalty schemes, packaged services and the likes, I would rather just have a genuinely good basic service.
 

Puffing Devil

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I believe there are TOCs who don't take it at all due to the exorbitant merchant's fees which are far higher than credit card acceptance fees.

I know there are the extra service packages, but to be honest I'd rather have a Visa card (which WILL do nicely anywhere that isn't cash-only or Dutch) and good quality travel insurance, for instance.

And I'm not really one for loyalty schemes, packaged services and the likes, I would rather just have a genuinely good basic service.

Personal v Corporate choices - I need to expense my travel and must use the company card.

I believe it's a franchise requirement that they accept must take Amex and it's listed on the NR site: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/45185.aspx
 

CyrusWuff

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According to the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement, Card acceptance should be defined in Schedule 17 of said Agreement.

It won't surprise anyone to know that it isn't.

However, Schedule 20 has a list of "nominated" cards that were accepted at the time of creation of the agreement and I would assume that these are the ones that TOCs MUST accept.

The list can be summarised as: Maestro, Mastercard and Visa, with no mention of Amex or Diners Club.
 
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