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Skipton-Lancaster service in Ribble days

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Ken H

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Think it was the 580. Most were split, Pennine doing the Skipton-Ingleton leg, and Ribble going forward to Lancaster. But you could book through. Ribble also did an Ingleton-Kendal service - dunno if there were through tickets.
Some Pennines went all the way to Lancaster and Ribble buses did turn up in Skipton on this route. (The Manchesters, Prestons and Eattby locals were Ribble too.)
Pennine didnt have route numbers on their buses (actually coaches) then.
On the Pennines you got a Ribble ticket from a Setright.
And the timetable cases were Ribble. This one (with Ribble removed and painted black) is still in Settle - https://goo.gl/maps/DThhiFk3wuHQQiCq5

So what was the operating agreement, and when did it end?
 
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michael Bell

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Think it was the 580. Most were split, Pennine doing the Skipton-Ingleton leg, and Ribble going forward to Lancaster. But you could book through. Ribble also did an Ingleton-Kendal service - dunno if there were through tickets.
Some Pennines went all the way to Lancaster and Ribble buses did turn up in Skipton on this route. (The Manchesters, Prestons and Eattby locals were Ribble too.)
Pennine didnt have route numbers on their buses (actually coaches) then.
On the Pennines you got a Ribble ticket from a Setright.
And the timetable cases were Ribble. This one (with Ribble removed and painted black) is still in Settle - https://goo.gl/maps/DThhiFk3wuHQQiCq5

So what was the operating agreement, and when did it end?
The arrangement ended at deregulation when Lancaster city was competing against Ribble Pennine started running to Burnley and cut back the Skipton route to Settle. Pennine had a outstation at Ingleton and the first bus in a morning ran through to Morecambe Euston Rd Ribble bus station then Went through to Skipton, This bus then worked through to Lancaster and left again about 15:30 back to Skipton then worked back to Lancaster to do the last service to Ingleton. Skipton also had 1 bus on this route operating the full service there were other duties were Ribble ran to Ingleton and met with a Pennine it was a joint operation and Ribble supplied most of the admin. Pennine had two Ingleton Crews and they swopped over in the afternoon. When an Ingleton crew was unavailable Ribble would provide a crew for the Pennine bus. Ribble also out stationed buses at the Ingleton Garage. After Deregulation this type of joint working was not allowed as classed as anti competitive. In the mid to late 1960 Pennine normal Ingleton bus was a Leyland Tiger cub with Duple Donnington body they had 3 of these plus one on an early Leopard, they also had a Leyland Royal Tiger with Leyland Coachwork a couple with Roe bus bodies one with Leyland bodywork an ex Ribble Royal Tiger with Leyland Body then thy used leopard Plaxton Panaramas with bus grant style bodies, In the 70s they moved on to Leopards with Willowbrook Dp type bodies.
 

AndyW33

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The arrangement, pre de-regulation, was that Ribble provided nearly all the traffic department back-office admin for Pennine, including ticket machine maintenance, ticket audit, road service licensing, timetables and publicity. Pennine did their own driver recruitment and allocation of crews to duties (though Ribble drew up the duties themselves for them), and engineering admin.
 

Ken H

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The arrangement, pre de-regulation, was that Ribble provided nearly all the traffic department back-office admin for Pennine, including ticket machine maintenance, ticket audit, road service licensing, timetables and publicity. Pennine did their own driver recruitment and allocation of crews to duties (though Ribble drew up the duties themselves for them), and engineering admin.
One wonders why Ribble bothered with this, as they had garages in Lancaster and Skipton.
 

AndyW33

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Because it was pre-deregulation. Routes that a company already had when regulation started in the early 1930s they kept, and it was extremely difficult to get a licence to compete with someone else's route. Pennine was already on the scene when Ribble turned their attention to this area, and that left three options - buy Pennine out, or accept their existence in otherwise Ribble territory, or what actually happened - develop a joint operation agreement. Ribble specialised in these, they had more jointly operated routes than any other company in the UK, with municipalities, independents, Tilling and other BET companies.
Although I never saw the actual agreement during my period at Ribble, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Ribble didn't have first refusal should the owners of Pennine want to stop stage carriage operation or sell out altogether, but they never did until after deregulation and after the routes had ceased to be profitable
 

Ken H

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Because it was pre-deregulation. Routes that a company already had when regulation started in the early 1930s they kept, and it was extremely difficult to get a licence to compete with someone else's route. Pennine was already on the scene when Ribble turned their attention to this area, and that left three options - buy Pennine out, or accept their existence in otherwise Ribble territory, or what actually happened - develop a joint operation agreement. Ribble specialised in these, they had more jointly operated routes than any other company in the UK, with municipalities, independents, Tilling and other BET companies.
Although I never saw the actual agreement during my period at Ribble, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Ribble didn't have first refusal should the owners of Pennine want to stop stage carriage operation or sell out altogether, but they never did until after deregulation and after the routes had ceased to be profitable
Thanks
 

Llandudno

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Caught the last 580 a few times when on holiday in Ingleton.

2300ish from Lancaster due in Ingleton after midnight, but usually arrived 15 minutes early!

Ribble operated by Ingleton outstation.

I doubt Ingleton has any buses after 1900 now!
 

Bovverboy

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Think it was the 580.

Became 580/581 (ex-39, 40) c.1969, I think.

Some Pennines went all the way to Lancaster

In the middle of the day, Monday to Saturday, a Pennine would run through to Lancaster every three hours, so at any one point in time there was a Pennine west of Ingleton. There was a three-and-a-half hour gap between the first one of the day (starting at Ingleton) and the second (originating at Skipton), this was to enable the first one to run through to Morecambe.

and Ribble buses did turn up in Skipton on this route.

During my time with Ribble (on and off, 1968-78), Ribble only ran east of Ingleton on a Sunday. In 1968 the 0948 Lancaster-Skipton and return (1235, I think) was worked by Ribble's Lancaster depot (with a two-man crew!), and the 1548 and return (prob. 1835) by Ribble's Ingleton depot (one-man, I think). Around 1969 the 0948 was changed to an Ingleton depot working (one-man, I think). These were journeys which, on Mondays to Saturdays, would be worked by Pennine (Ingleton depot). Pennine Skipton depot journeys operated on Sunday the same, I think, as Monday to Saturday.

(The Manchesters, Prestons and Eattby locals were Ribble too.)

If I remember correctly Ribble's Skipton depot provided two vehicles for the Manchester service (X43 - after 1962 these were usually 'White Lady' Atlanteans), so the other 4/5 vehicles needed for the service would have been provided by other depots (possibly, just Burnley).
The Preston service (X27) for many years ran through to Southport, but I think there was always a crew change at Preston. I can't remember how many vehicles Skipton depot provided, it may have been just one.
By 'Eattby' I presume 'Eastby' was intended, but I think the majority of journeys terminated at Embsay. Some continued through to Bolton Abbey. I think this service was worked entirely by Skipton depot. (I say 'think', since I can't rule out the possibility of some interworking with the X27).

Pennine didnt have route numbers on their buses (actually coaches) then.

In the early 1960s Pennine's fleet was a mixture of service buses and what would be considered DPs (such as the Duple Doningtons). The Leyland coach-bodied Royal Tiger was, of course, built as a coach, but by the 1960s I would say it did mainly service work, like the rest of the fleet. I think that, for a few years, it was the regular Ingleton depot vehicle.
The arrival of a Plaxton Panorama bodied Leopard in 1965 seems to have been an attempt by Pennine to break into serious coach work, but coach work remained a minority activity and was ultimately abandoned. The fleet didn't become all-coach until at least the 1970s.

On the Pennines you got a Ribble ticket from a Setright.

This I can't remember, I thought Pennine used their own tickets, but I'll happily stand corrected on this point.
 
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Bovverboy

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Pennine had two Ingleton Crews and they swopped over in the afternoon.

Up to some time in the 1960s all of Pennine's Ingleton depot work was crew operated (as was, I suspect at that time, the rest of Pennine's work). The two Ingleton-depot drivers were Dennis Mitton (whose brother Chris was a driver with Ribble, operating out of the same depot), and a driver called John (never knew his surname). Because of children considerations, Dennis's wife was John's conductress, and John's wife was Dennis's. Unfortunately John's wife died and Dennis henceforth worked on his own (i.e. one-man). John finished c.1969/70 (I don't know in what circumstances) and Dennis's wife was, I think, made redundant, as were all the remaining Pennine conductresses - I don't know whether or not Pennine had any male conductors. Dennis continued with Pennine for quite a few years.

When an Ingleton crew was unavailable Ribble would provide a crew for the Pennine bus.

I don't remember that, sorry, trouble is I can't actually recall what did happen when a Pennine crew was unavailable.

Ribble also out stationed buses at the Ingleton Garage.

That's right, the building was owned by Pennine but Ribble based three times as many vehicles there! (Three compared to one). The depot continued to be owned by Pennine up to its cessation of operations (2014, was it?), even though it hadn't used the building as an operational base for many years. The 'spare' space was used to store preservation candidates, at different times the ex-Laycock Leopard, a National, and, I think, the coach-bodied Royal Tiger.

then thy used leopard Plaxton Panaramas with bus grant style bodies, In the 70s they moved on to Leopards with Willowbrook Dp type bodies.

Prior to c.1968 the only Plaxton Panorama in the fleet was FWX554C, this was to full coach spec although it did appear on service. It easily pre-dated the bus grant. The Willowbrooks would have been the first vehicles to grant spec, I would think. The bus grant Plaxtons came after the Willowbrooks.
 

Bovverboy

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Pennine did their own driver recruitment

Including, on at least one occasion, managing to 'poach' one of the Ingleton-based Ribble drivers. That must have given the Ribble/Pennine relationship a bit of a knock!
 
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AndyW33

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This I can't remember, I thought Pennine used their own tickets, but I'll happily stand corrected on this point.
There certainly were Pennine Setright ticket rolls. But it wasn't unknown for Ribble ones to be used instead, especially if the roll in the machine started getting low at Lancaster or Morecambe, and the spare roll in the box was missing. Drivers at Ingleton were known to "lend" rolls across companies as well.
 

Ken H

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I remember pennine carrying parcels. Sure once they carries a basket of live chickens from Austwick to Settle. Think the deal was the receiver has to meet the bus to get their parcel.
 

Bovverboy

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I remember pennine carrying parcels. Sure once they carries a basket of live chickens from Austwick to Settle. Think the deal was the receiver has to meet the bus to get their parcel.

Ribble also carried parcels - up to the 1970s, at least. I think the parcel could be claimed en route, but it was more usual for its destination to be a Ribble office, and for it to be claimed from there. It could also be handed to a driver or conductor during the course of a journey, and the fee paid there and then, but this was quite rare (and may have been abandoned, at some point). Road staff were instructed on how to estimate the weight of a package ('a Setright machine weights such-and-such', etc) but I think in reality the consignor's word was taken in respect of what a package weighed and what the carriage charge should be.
Mail bags could also be carried, and in that instance the bags were padlocked to a handrail.
 

AndyW33

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There were also parcels agents in some towns and villages, but one-person operation made it increasingly difficult for the driver to leave the bus unattended to collect and deliver parcels at the agency. Possibly the busiest parcels business was done at Carlisle, where there were significant amounts of car parts sent from main dealers in the city to smaller garages all over the region by bus. The sheer volume of business really only became apparent when the Carlisle offices of first United and then Cumberland were merged into the Ribble operation, and even then Western SMT remained separate until several years after the traffic had started to decline
 

Bovverboy

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I remember pennine carrying parcels. Sure once they carries a basket of live chickens from Austwick to Settle.

Once heard a story of a farmer in the Todmorden area who regularly travelled with one of his sheep by Tod Corpy bus!
 

Statto

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I have a summer 1972 Ribble, Northern area timetable which has Skipton-Lancaster route, the timetable shows most journeys, you had to change buses in Ingleton, with 4 through journeys, frequency was hourly with extra journeys for schools/market days.

The through journeys were timed to meet in each direction at Ingleton, so not sure if drivers changed buses rather than driving the bus end to end, although through journey time was 2 hours 30 minutes
 

Bovverboy

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I have a summer 1972 Ribble, Northern area timetable which has Skipton-Lancaster route, the timetable shows most journeys, you had to change buses in Ingleton, with 4 through journeys, frequency was hourly with extra journeys for schools/market days.

The through journeys were timed to meet in each direction at Ingleton, so not sure if drivers changed buses rather than driving the bus end to end, although through journey time was 2 hours 30 minutes

The through journeys were generally operated without a change of driver at Ingleton. In respect of the Pennine-operated journeys the only time there would be a change of driver at Ingleton would be if the driver was Ingleton-based and it was shift-change time, which I think was c.1400. So the late shift was notably longer than the early. Pennine Skipton depot drivers always worked Skipton through to Lancaster and back to Skipton. The timetable did allow a half-hour or so break in Lancaster.

When Ribble Lancaster crews worked the 0948Su Lancaster - Skipton and 1235Su return they stayed with the vehicle throughout. I don't know what the arrangement was in respect of Ribble Ingleton drivers.
 
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