1969 London Euston timetables

John Hall · 13 Sep 2019

Hello, Im doing a bit of research and I need to see likely routes and timetables for a journey from London Euston to Barrow in Furness in August 1969..I'm told it was possible to travel overnight and arrive at around 6 am.
Any pointers would be appreciated and sources cited.

Thanks
John

RailUK Forums

Darandio · 13 Sep 2019

Not 1969, but from what I can see in a 1962 timetable from Timetable World is a 23:15 departure from Euston, arriving Carnforth at 04:52. Then change to a 05:40 departure from Carnforth and arrive in Barrow in Furness at 06:41. I'd imagine the times were broadly similar only a few years later.

Andy R. A. · 13 Sep 2019

While not exactly the time period through the 1970s (but possibly slightly into the late 1960s) there was the regular Barrow overnight service 1P54 2345 Euston to Barrow-in-Furness, scheduled arrival at Barrow of 0555, conveyed normal Mark 1 seating coaches plus two Sleeping Cars for Barrow, and at one time another which was detached at Preston. Also conveyed one TPO vehicle to Barrow, and a couple of Full Brakes for Newspaper traffic.
Return working was 1A00 2046 off Barrow, arriving Euston just before 0230.
There were a couple of daytime services to/from Euston which split/joined, with a portion for Barrow, and the other portion going onto Carlisle.
Summer Saturdays had a complete daytime Barrow working which left Euston at 1115 if I remember correctly ?

eastwestdivide · 13 Sep 2019

My 1974 ABC rail guide shows a 2345 SuX Euston-Barrow sleeper service arriving 0553 on Tues-Sat mornings, 0650 Sunday morning, no service Sunday night into Monday morning.
In the reverse direction, 2048 SSuX Barrow-Euston arrive 0223 (berths available until 0730), 2053 SuO Barrow-Euston arrive 0227 Monday morning (berths available until 0730).
Looking at the normal train service, it appears that the seated coaches ran 7 days a week, while the sleeper accommodation missed out one day (no sleepers northbound Sunday night or southbound Saturday night).
There was also a through daytime service: 0755 Barrow-Euston arr 1219 / 1805 Euston-Barrow 2243
2nd class return £13.57. According to the Bank of England inflation calculator (https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy/inflation/inflation-calculator), £13 in 1974 would be £133 in 2018.
A similar journey today (0746 from Barrow, 1830 back from Euston) would be £113.60 Off-Peak Return.

WesternLancer · 13 Sep 2019

John Hall said:
Hello, Im doing a bit of research and I need to see likely routes and timetables for a journey from London Euston to Barrow in Furness in August 1969..I'm told it was possible to travel overnight and arrive at around 6 am.
Any pointers would be appreciated and sources cited.

Thanks
John

I've not checked but I recall the Barrow sleeper / night train gets a mention on this thread (or if not another similar one)
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...old-routes-served-by-sleeper-services.183067/

And this link mentions it (a post includes a 1974 sleeper route map showing the Barrow service), plus another post from someone who used it - post made earlier this year:
see
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/uk-sleeping-car-services.176382/

a post from Lucan who has posted elsewhere on the forum recently by the looks of it - so you may be able to Direct Message Lucan to see if that covers the time you are researching.

"I took that sleeper from Euston quite a few times when I had business at Vicker's ship building yard. It arrived in Barrow fairly early but you did not need to get up and out straight away. Had breakfast in the station cafe."

krus_aragon · 13 Sep 2019

John Hall said:
Hello, Im doing a bit of research and I need to see likely routes and timetables for a journey from London Euston to Barrow in Furness in August 1969..I'm told it was possible to travel overnight and arrive at around 6 am.
Any pointers would be appreciated and sources cited.

Thanks
John

A little earlier than 1969, but my 1963/64 London Midland region timetable shows a train departing Euston at 10:35pm, calling at Crewe, Warrington BQ, Wigan NW, Preston, Lancaster, Carnforth and Ulverston, getting you to Barrow for 5:16am (5:27am on Monday mornings).

RT4038 · 13 Sep 2019

In the LMR timetable 9/9/64 to 13/6/65 the sleeping car for the Cumbrian Coast left at 23h15 Monday to Saturday nights (no departure on Sunday nights). On Monday to Friday nights the train conveyed a sleeping car Euston to Preston, day cars Euston to Windermere, and a sleeping car from Euston to Corkickle (arr 08h46) [travelling forward from Carnforth on the 05h40 stopping train Carnforth to Workington, sleeping car detached at Corkicle]. There was also a 22h35 [Mo.-Fr.] / 22h40 [Su] Euston to Whitehaven conveying day cars only. On Saturday nights the 23h15 from Euston conveyed a sleeping car for Preston, and both day and sleeping cars to Barrow.

The return Sleeping car left Barrow at 19h41 Daily except Saturdays for London St. Pancras arr 03h40. This was conveyed from Barrow on the 17h08 stopping train from Workington to Lancaster. Oddly, the through day cars left Workington at 18h28 and were united with the day Windermere cars (dep 20h30) at Carnforth, the Barrow sleeping car at Lancaster and then the Preston sleeping car a Preston.
I guess the train was being diverted to St. Pancras due to electrification works. The last public stop was Crewe. On a Sunday night the day cars from Workington picked up the Barrow sleeping car at Barrow (dep 20h07), the Windermere day cars at Carnforth and the Preston sleeping car at Preston.

All very complicated!

Bevan Price · 13 Sep 2019

In the May 1969 - May 1970 timetable, there were 2 dayime through services from Euston to Barrow, plus a third daytime train on some Summer Saturdays

Euston dep. 10:50 (SO, 28/6 - 30/8); Barrow arr 15:43
Euston dep. 11:05; Barrow arr. 16:14
Euston dep. 16:10; Barrow arr. 21:14

Plus the sleeper dep. Euston 23:45

Southbound were
Barrow dep:08:39 (SO, 14/6 - 6/9); Euston arr. 13:44
Barrow dep. 08:45 **; Euston arr. 13:50. Combined with Carlisle portion at Lancaster.
** - Did not run on dates when the 08:39 operated.
Barrow dep. 13:55; Euston arr. 18:58
Barrow dep. 20:45; Euston arr. 02:45 (Conveyed sleepers)

At other times. connections could be made at Preston or Lancaster

rogercov · 13 Sep 2019

If it helps, here's an extract from the 1967 timetable. It's the 23:55 from Euston

Taunton · 13 Sep 2019

RT4038 said:
and a sleeping car from Euston to Corkickle (arr 08h46) [travelling forward from Carnforth on the 05h40 stopping train Carnforth to Workington, sleeping car detached at Corkicle].

All very complicated!

If I'm not mistaken, this sleeping car terminated at the obscure station of Corkickle, one stop before Whitehaven, because it was unable to get through the tight tunnel between these two places. It was presumably physically detached while the rest of the train carried on, with the, doubtless not too many, sleeper passengers. Same tunnel I think which meant that dmus on the line had to have window bars over the droplights.

WesternLancer · 14 Sep 2019

I see I have a may 1968 to May 1969 LMR timetable. Let me know if you want that checking for through services / night trains. I'm expecting it to be the same as 1969 times detailed by Bevan above, but happy to dig it out and have a look if required!

70014IronDuke · 14 Sep 2019

Taunton said:
If I'm not mistaken, this sleeping car terminated at the obscure station of Corkickle, one stop before Whitehaven, because it was unable to get through the tight tunnel between these two places. It was presumably physically detached while the rest of the train carried on, with the, doubtless not too many, sleeper passengers. Same tunnel I think which meant that dmus on the line had to have window bars over the droplights.

Staggering, isn't it? A Euston - Corckickle sleeping car service! I was wondering about this. There is indeed a tunnel immediately to the south of Whitehaven - but I thought it was the tunnel around Maryport (or some such?) that was the restrictive one?
Whatever, perhaps the sleeping car was restricted because of the risk of passengers poking their heads out - so they turfed all the passengers out, but the sleeping car stayed in the consist?

Taunton · 14 Sep 2019

Tight tunnel at Corkickle :

https://www.google.com/maps/place/C...887217620356ab96!8m2!3d54.5417546!4d-3.582219

Station platform nowadays doesn't look to immaculate, either.

MontyP · 14 Sep 2019

Bevan Price said:
In the May 1969 - May 1970 timetable, there were 2 dayime through services from Euston to Barrow, plus a third daytime train on some Summer Saturdays

Euston dep. 10:50 (SO, 28/6 - 30/8); Barrow arr 15:43
Euston dep. 11:05; Barrow arr. 16:14
Euston dep. 16:10; Barrow arr. 21:14

Plus the sleeper dep. Euston 23:45

Southbound were
Barrow dep:08:39 (SO, 14/6 - 6/9); Euston arr. 13:44
Barrow dep. 08:45 **; Euston arr. 13:50. Combined with Carlisle portion at Lancaster.
** - Did not run on dates when the 08:39 operated.
Barrow dep. 13:55; Euston arr. 18:58
Barrow dep. 20:45; Euston arr. 02:45 (Conveyed sleepers)

At other times. connections could be made at Preston or Lancaster

Was there any reason why the southbound arrived into Euston so early? I know that passengers could stay in their beds until 0730, but even so, an arrival at 0245 is very anti-social!

30907 · 15 Sep 2019

MontyP said:
Was there any reason why the southbound arrived into Euston so early? I know that passengers could stay in their beds until 0730, but even so, an arrival at 0245 is very anti-social!

It was also a mail train, and the GPO always wanted early arrivals into London.

Pyreneenguy · 16 Sep 2019

I've created a media album with the relevant pages from the LMR 1969/70 timetable.
Hope they're useful.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/media/img_20190916_133728-1.3536/

cheers

Andrew

nw1 · 16 Sep 2019

eastwestdivide said:
My 1974 ABC rail guide shows a 2345 SuX Euston-Barrow sleeper service arriving 0553 on Tues-Sat mornings, 0650 Sunday morning, no service Sunday night into Monday morning.
In the reverse direction, 2048 SSuX Barrow-Euston arrive 0223 (berths available until 0730), 2053 SuO Barrow-Euston arrive 0227 Monday morning (berths available until 0730).
Looking at the normal train service, it appears that the seated coaches ran 7 days a week, while the sleeper accommodation missed out one day (no sleepers northbound Sunday night or southbound Saturday night).
There was also a through daytime service: 0755 Barrow-Euston arr 1219 / 1805 Euston-Barrow 2243
2nd class return £13.57. According to the Bank of England inflation calculator (https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy/inflation/inflation-calculator), £13 in 1974 would be £133 in 2018.
A similar journey today (0746 from Barrow, 1830 back from Euston) would be £113.60 Off-Peak Return.

As an aside that Bank of England site is an interesting find. I remember a return (out Sat, back Sun) from Haslemere to Stafford in 1983 was precisely £10 (via Reading, child fare) which would be £33.15 today, or £66.20 adult fare. Actual off-peak return via Reading nowadays is quite considerably more at £102.05 - interestingly though the London route is actually cheaper at £88. (Reading is actually probably a less-favourable route these days due to the loss of the Portsmouth Cross-Country services which were generally at sensible times - if only once or twice a day - for much of the 80s).

No £66 off-peak return fares via either route though!

70014IronDuke · 16 Sep 2019

Taunton said:
Tight tunnel at Corkickle :

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Corkickle/@54.5419027,-3.5824515,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sAF1QipPz4B4Ob2487srq5TOHQ_pAK0YI8tM048VYlS6Z!2e10!3e12!6shttps://lh5.googleusercontent.com/p/AF1QipPz4B4Ob2487srq5TOHQ_pAK0YI8tM048VYlS6Z=w203-h135-k-no!7i4019!8i2682!4m5!3m4!1s0x486331f1bc4e820f:0x887217620356ab96!8m2!3d54.5417546!4d-3.582219

Station platform nowadays doesn't look to immaculate, either.

oooch. Don't think anyone should be sticking their heads out in that tunnel, for sure.

Bevan Price · 18 Sep 2019

70014IronDuke said:
Staggering, isn't it? A Euston - Corckickle sleeping car service! I was wondering about this. There is indeed a tunnel immediately to the south of Whitehaven - but I thought it was the tunnel around Maryport (or some such?) that was the restrictive one?
Whatever, perhaps the sleeping car was restricted because of the risk of passengers poking their heads out - so they turfed all the passengers out, but the sleeping car stayed in the consist?

Nomal loco hauled stock, including Mark 1 stock regularly passed through the Whitehaven tunnel on Workington to London & Manchester services until they ceased - and did not need bars over "door" windows. It was the Workington / Maryport / Carlisle trains that had to have those window bars.
It may have been the length of Whitehaven platforms that caused the problems for the sleeper train; this station is immediately north of the tunnel, and any long trains stopping here might have found the rear coaches stopped inside the tunnel.

Bald Rick · 18 Sep 2019

nickw1 said:
As an aside that Bank of England site is an interesting find. I remember a return (out Sat, back Sun) from Haslemere to Stafford in 1983 was precisely £10 (via Reading, child fare) which would be £33.15 today, or £66.20 adult fare. Actual off-peak return via Reading nowadays is quite considerably more at £102.05 - interestingly though the London route is actually cheaper at £88. (Reading is actually probably a less-favourable route these days due to the loss of the Portsmouth Cross-Country services which were generally at sensible times - if only once or twice a day - for much of the 80s).

No £66 off-peak return fares via either route though!

You can do it for £57 if you’re happy to split ticket and travel LNWR.

70014IronDuke · 19 Sep 2019

Bevan Price said:
Nomal loco hauled stock, including Mark 1 stock regularly passed through the Whitehaven tunnel on Workington to London & Manchester services until they ceased - and did not need bars over "door" windows. It was the Workington / Maryport / Carlisle trains that had to have those window bars.
It may have been the length of Whitehaven platforms that caused the problems for the sleeper train; this station is immediately north of the tunnel, and any long trains stopping here might have found the rear coaches stopped inside the tunnel.

Well, that's all right then - the darkness would help passengers sleep in longer

Thanks for the clarifications, Bevan. It was (is), indeed, restrictions further north-east which bedevils the line.

1969 London Euston timetables

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