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EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

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Tetchytyke

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Didnt the rules we didnt like from the EU (i.e. things the UK voted against) include things like clean beaches, ensuring drinking water is clean to drink, enviromantal targets... etc. spot a theme there.

Yep. And scrapping mobile roaming charges too, after significant lobbying from Vodafone, even though the Tories tried to claim the credit for it anyway.

There is, of course, a reason why the psychopathic chemicals magnate Jim Ratcliffe (whose billions are safely offshore) is such a devotee of Brexit.
 
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J-Rod

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Didn't the rules we didn't like from the EU (i.e. things the UK voted against) include things like clean beaches, ensuring drinking water is clean to drink, environmental targets... etc. spot a theme there.

oh and funding a whole heap of projects in the areas where the majority then voted to leave (A465 dualling in S. Wales, for example)

Nasty, evil EU.
 

Clip

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Now with the publication of Yellowhammer it appears we'll have less cake, it will take longer to get it and it may be significantly more expensive.

Yellowhammer was just a 'worst case scenario' paper and not what will exactly happen. Every government should have something of a bad scenario paper for decisions it makes shouldnt it?

To be fair they havent published a 'best thing' paper either but I guess them going on about how good it will be negates the need for one
Yet, as far as I can see, they've been negotiating throughout the process in pretty good faith, with the aim of trying to come to a mutually agreeable accommodation.

One that was voted down 3 times by parliament with lots of people saying go and get one better(which I believe Labour are saying they would do) but they didnt budge an inch. That doesnt sound in pretty good faith negotiations to me
 

Bantamzen

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Is there anyone on here who actually still believes we will be financially better off away from Europe?
Most of the Brexiteers I've spoken too seem to think it's worth being poorer to get away from Johnny foreigner who they seem to look on as inferior or even worse. Where have I heard that before.
K

It seems not. Pretty much nobody, including the fanatical element of the Brexiteers seem able to make anything like a strong economical case for Brexit anymore. But what the Brexiteer cult is able to do is say that any financial loss will be worth it, whilst of course crossing their fingers and hoping that it won't actually impact them personally. Like I implied earlier, they will be the first on the streets if/when the you-know-what hits the fan.
 

Tetchytyke

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But what the Brexiteer cult is able to do is say that any financial loss will be worth it, whilst of course crossing their fingers and hoping that it won't actually impact them personally.

It will benefit them personally. Why do you think Jim Ratcliffe- the sleazy chemical baron who stands to profit from the removal of EU environmental regulations- adores Brexit so much?
 

Bantamzen

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It will benefit them personally. Why do you think Jim Ratcliffe- the sleazy chemical baron who stands to profit from the removal of EU environmental regulations- adores Brexit so much?

Oh believe me I know those at the top will cash in, erm sorry I mean benefit. I'm thinking about those still blindly following them on their Brexit death cult that will feel the full force of any economic downturn.
 

najaB

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Yellowhammer was just a 'worst case scenario' paper and not what will exactly happen. Every government should have something of a bad scenario paper for decisions it makes shouldnt it?
Yes, they should. And this Government does. It's called Black Swan.

The leaked Yellowhammer documents were labelled "Base scenario" rather than "Reasonable worst case scenario" - it was changed prior to release.

Source: https://www.dailydot.com/layer8/operation-black-swan-yellowhammer/
 
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DerekC

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But what the Brexiteer cult is able to do is say that any financial loss will be worth it.

But worth it for what? That's what I don't understand. To quote Paul Simon:

I have squandered my resistance for a pocketful of mumbles
Such are promises
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest...


Seems to fit the current situation quite well.
 

edwin_m

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One that was voted down 3 times by parliament with lots of people saying go and get one better(which I believe Labour are saying they would do) but they didnt budge an inch. That doesnt sound in pretty good faith negotiations to me
Do you think if Scotland declared independence England and Wales would offer something that damaged their own interests to help it on its way?
 

edwin_m

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But worth it for what? That's what I don't understand. To quote Paul Simon:

I have squandered my resistance for a pocketful of mumbles
Such are promises
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest...


Seems to fit the current situation quite well.
...cut him till he cried out in his anger and his shame
I am leaving, I am leaving
but the fighter still remains.
 

dosxuk

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One that was voted down 3 times by parliament with lots of people saying go and get one better(which I believe Labour are saying they would do) but they didnt budge an inch. That doesnt sound in pretty good faith negotiations to me

Did we budge an inch either? No, we doubled down and complained that they needed to give us more.
 

Aictos

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I'm not sure "what we have largely works, only a complete imbecile would want to change it" is an ignorant position to take.

Remain's campaign was "it ain't broke, don't fix it". It wasn't Hard Remain, demanding Schengen and the Euro.

I disagree, you're basically saying that the there is nothing wrong with the EU and we should just let life go on!

Just to prove my point that the relationship between the UK and EU is heavily weighted one way...

Out of the seven other EU Member States' waters that the UK landed fish from the most valuable for the UK fleet were (avg. 2012 – 2016):
  • France (14,000 tonnes, £17 million)
  • Denmark (7,000 tonnes, £10 million)
The other EU Member States landing the most value from UK waters were:

  • France (120,000 tonnes, £171 million)
  • Denmark (237,000 tonnes, £90 million)
Now my maths might not be good but I would say the EU as in France and Denmark get far more out of fishing in UK waters then we do by fishing in their waters and that's is unfair!

The above figures show that the French take on average around 10 times in UK waters what the UK take in French waters while the Danish take on average 9 times in UK waters what the UK takes in Danish waters.

That's not fiction but proven fact which can be read in more detail here:

https://marinedevelopments.blog.gov.uk/2018/09/27/mmo-fisheries-statistics-2017-eez/

I don't have a issue with the EU but I do have a issue with EU partners overfishing in our own waters and that has to stop or least the EU partners need to reduce the amount of fish they take in our waters.
 

Clip

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Yes, they should.


So we're in agreement that your original post that stated the findings in Yellowhammer were not not quite what wil happen just what may happen which is contrary to your post that they will happen? Pheew
Do you think if Scotland declared independence England and Wales would offer something that damaged their own interests to help it on its way?

Scottish independence is not what we are discussing here - if you would like to create a thread on Scottish Independence then please feel free to do so
Did we budge an inch either? No, we doubled down and complained that they needed to give us more.

And isnt that exactly what labour say they would do also - get a better deal? I think youll find it is so your point is moot.
 

Howardh

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I disagree, you're basically saying that the there is nothing wrong with the EU and we should just let life go on!

Just to prove my point that the relationship between the UK and EU is heavily weighted one way...

Out of the seven other EU Member States' waters that the UK landed fish from the most valuable for the UK fleet were (avg. 2012 – 2016):
  • France (14,000 tonnes, £17 million)
  • Denmark (7,000 tonnes, £10 million)
The other EU Member States landing the most value from UK waters were:

  • France (120,000 tonnes, £171 million)
  • Denmark (237,000 tonnes, £90 million)
Now my maths might not be good but I would say the EU as in France and Denmark get far more out of fishing in UK waters then we do by fishing in their waters and that's is unfair!

The above figures show that the French take on average around 10 times in UK waters what the UK take in French waters while the Danish take on average 9 times in UK waters what the UK takes in Danish waters.

That's not fiction but proven fact which can be read in more detail here:

https://marinedevelopments.blog.gov.uk/2018/09/27/mmo-fisheries-statistics-2017-eez/

I don't have a issue with the EU but I do have a issue with EU partners overfishing in our own waters and that has to stop or least the EU partners need to reduce the amount of fish they take in our waters.

I'm not disputing a word of that and you know far more than I; however in the back of my mind I recall it being mentioned that the above was due to us "selling off" our areas. As I'm not well versed in fishing matters maybe someone who is can confirm or deny my thoughts and if true, maybe they could add some meat to the bones?
 

Howardh

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Maybe we could fish our waters more then? But we choose not to.
That's the trouble with fish, they swim around where they like and refuse to stay within international boundaries. Time to fence off parts of the North/Irish seas and keep the blighters in their place!!
 

tomglazed

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If people on here have access to Netflix I highly recommend you watch The Great Hack. It goes into depth of the entire process of a very sophisticated data driven campaign to spread dis-information to what they were able to identify as “impressionables” and follow it up with a TED talk from Carole Cadwalladr on Facebook’s threat to democracy.

Everyone is impressionable to an extent, and everyone is impressionable to differing types of content based on your own personal situation. But if I hear the whole “we voted to leave so...” I’m really done. On top of a decades long EU dis-information campaign from various media outlets in the UK, we’ve topped it off with a social media dis-information campaign to really seal the deal. You can’t ignore a vote because of decades long of anti-EU propaganda in traditional media unfortunately but the targeted actions to seal the deal on social media have been called into question many times and investigated.

If the referendum were legally binding or electoral, it would have been declared void... so what does that tell you?

And even that all aside, just because you decided to move home 3 years ago, it is okay to once making the decision to do that after seeing all the information laid bare as to what that could entail to say... actually, we’re good thank you. Grass isn’t always greener.
 

YorkshireBear

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I disagree, you're basically saying that the there is nothing wrong with the EU and we should just let life go on!

Just to prove my point that the relationship between the UK and EU is heavily weighted one way...

Out of the seven other EU Member States' waters that the UK landed fish from the most valuable for the UK fleet were (avg. 2012 – 2016):
  • France (14,000 tonnes, £17 million)
  • Denmark (7,000 tonnes, £10 million)
The other EU Member States landing the most value from UK waters were:

  • France (120,000 tonnes, £171 million)
  • Denmark (237,000 tonnes, £90 million)
Now my maths might not be good but I would say the EU as in France and Denmark get far more out of fishing in UK waters then we do by fishing in their waters and that's is unfair!

The above figures show that the French take on average around 10 times in UK waters what the UK take in French waters while the Danish take on average 9 times in UK waters what the UK takes in Danish waters.

That's not fiction but proven fact which can be read in more detail here:

https://marinedevelopments.blog.gov.uk/2018/09/27/mmo-fisheries-statistics-2017-eez/

I don't have a issue with the EU but I do have a issue with EU partners overfishing in our own waters and that has to stop or least the EU partners need to reduce the amount of fish they take in our waters.

If only we had a leader of a political party in the EU as part of a working group on improving fishing rules and regulations.

Oh wait we did, but he couldn't be bothered to turn up.

As a remainder fishing was one of the areas I felt needed a major shake up if we stayed which made farages action's even more infuriating to me.
 

Bantamzen

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Did they?

Yes they did.

How do you know?

Because 'no deal' was not spoken about at any great length. Remember, leavers told us a deal with the EU would be "easy".

Did you ask all 17 million people?

I don't need to, as per the above.

Or are you just guessing?

Call it an educated guess, based on the above.

Maybe some did know the pitfalls?
Maybe some knew it could be better without being in the EU?

Again, 'no deal' was not discussed at any great length. So no, most if not all leavers would have known all the pitfalls.

Are you saying ALL Remain voters knew the pitfalls?

No.

This is the problem I am finding over and over with Remain voters - they think they know what Leave voters know and don't know and believe their thoughts in this area are absolutely correct and will never think they are wrong, in any of it.

I wasn't a remain voter, I consciously chose not to vote because I felt that the debate did not highlight exactly these kind of things, and that a considered decision would be too hard based on too little evidence from both sides.

And I'm afraid your condescending comment there highlights the problem from both sides, and exactly why we are in this mess right now. We need a reasoned debate, based on facts, not name calling.
 

Ianno87

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Anybody else noticed that the parlance of a "managed" No Deal seems to have vanished?
 

najaB

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For the greater good?
The majority of the country wanted to leave.
The majority (of those who voted) chose to leave, yes. But is it not conceivable that a sizable percentage of them wanted a soft Brexit? Especially since during the campaign that was what was being offered?
 

najaB

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So we're in agreement that your original post that stated the findings in Yellowhammer were not not quite what wil happen just what may happen which is contrary to your post that they will happen?
No, we most certainly are not. As I said (and you appear to have ignored), the released document *is* what the government expects to happen. The worst case scenario document is Black Swan.
 

najaB

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I disagree, you're basically saying that the there is nothing wrong with the EU and we should just let life go on!
I don't believe that anyone has said that. But, naturally, it's easier to debate a strawman than the actual position of the other side.
 

AlterEgo

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Absolutely, the current electioneering proposals of the far right in Israel to annex parts of the West Bank is a prime example of what a future without organisations like the EU could turn out, even in established democracies

Why do you think that? It’s nonsense.
 

dosxuk

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And isnt that exactly what labour say they would do also - get a better deal? I think youll find it is so your point is moot.

No, it isn't. Labour position was that they want to remain in the single market and customs union, and accept the role that the ECJ has in those areas. All three of those are current red lines that they are willing to remove, which then opens up many other avenues of discussion and potential deal options. It would instantly get rid of the backstop complications too.
 

Ianno87

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Tetchytyke

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The above figures show that the French take on average around 10 times in UK waters what the UK take in French waters while the Danish take on average 9 times in UK waters what the UK takes in Danish waters.

All very interesting, but glosses over one huge and rather salient point: the owners of UK fishing rights have sold most of their fishing rights to foreign trawlers. Most other European governments don't allow that, but we do. We've sold 88% of the Welsh quota to Spanish trawlers, for instance. Of course are numbers are down, but that's not because of the evil EU.

https://www.express.co.uk/comment/c...assports-brexit/amp?__twitter_impression=true

But it turns out that foreign firms already own a big slice of British fishing rights and will continue to do so permanently. Why? Because British companies sold their quotas. Spanish firms own 88 per cent of Welsh fishing rights and most of the quota from the Bristol Channel to the Scottish border.

Dutch and Icelandic firms control most of our East Coast fishing. European seas are split into sectors and governments hand out quotas specifying how much of each type of fish can be caught. Unlike in other countries the Environment Department allows any or all of its quotas to be sold to foreign trawler firms.

Note the source too, the pro-Brexit Express.

I don't believe that anyone has said that. But, naturally, it's easier to debate a strawman than the actual position of the other side.

And ironically they've not even managed to do that without using an example of domestic avarice and mismanagement being blamed on the EU!
 
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