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Crossrail opening delayed (opening date not yet known)

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Bikeman78

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A bit pedantic, but "the bit between Liverpool Street and Shenfield" is a bit false because that is simply the existing metro service that's run on that line for decades, the only relation it has to Crossrail is the use of the Class 345 rolling stock. Since they still only run half-and-half between those and 315s (though more off-peak), I wouldn't consider even that complete either. There are good reasons why the new fleet hasn't taken over yet, but nonetheless, to state Crossrail is already running on that line is basically meaningless.

Hwl's estimates are the current thinking. If I were to offer my conjecture I would hazard a guess at Autumn 2021 for Phase 3, Spring 2022 for Phase 4 and Bond Street, Christmas 2022 for Phase 5 and 24tph core operation.
Is there any reason why they haven't shortened more 345s to replace the rest of the 315s? Seems bizarre to have so many new trains parked up.
 
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samuelmorris

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Is there any reason why they haven't shortened more 345s to replace the rest of the 315s? Seems bizarre to have so many new trains parked up.
Because when they run in the tunnels they'll need to be 9-car. There is still expected to be an instant changeover from services running to Liverpool Street main, to running into the core. There need to be enough 9-car units instantly available to take over from day one - running the entire GE metro fleet of 22 units in 7-car form would leave too few 9-cars available to take over.
 

hwl

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Is there any reason why they haven't shortened more 345s to replace the rest of the 315s? Seems bizarre to have so many new trains parked up.
SamuelMorris has explained well. A reasonable number of 315s are still need to run services into LST high level while the 7 to 9 car conversion (upto 12 weeks) is done so no point in getting rid of them or storing. Completely different software and certain features currently disabled on the 7car ones so some testing needed post conversion before being used.
 
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kevin_roche

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The Heathrow Branch isn't exactly non-standard signalling. GW-ATP is standard fit on the route. The issue is the poorly thought through migration strategy from GW-ATP to ETCS in so far as Crossrail discovered far too late in the day the practical difficulties their signalling strategy for the branch introduced. The GW main line 'bridge' between the ATP and ETCS is enhanced TPWS fitment. CR failed to understand the consequence of not having TPWS to act as the system migration 'bridge' together with the system incompatibility problems during transition testing. Hardly surprising given the pickle they've got themselves into with system integration in the core central sections. Like all these things, they're having to learn and adapt fast.

Do you think they are waiting for the completion of the ETCS install from Paddington to Heathrow? IIRC it is scheduled for completion at Easter 2020. Originally I assumed they would Start from Paddington using TPWS and switch to ETCS at Airport Junction. What will the trains to reading do? Will they use TPWS all the way or use ETCS to Airport Junction and then switch to TPWS?

I thought that Network rail were enhancing the GWML TPWS to make it work for the 345s because of the lack of ETCS but perhaps that is just from Airport Junction to Reading.
 

hwl

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Do you think they are waiting for the completion of the ETCS install from Paddington to Heathrow? IIRC it is scheduled for completion at Easter 2020. Originally I assumed they would Start from Paddington using TPWS and switch to ETCS at Airport Junction. What will the trains to reading do? Will they use TPWS all the way or use ETCS to Airport Junction and then switch to TPWS?

I thought that Network rail were enhancing the GWML TPWS to make it work for the 345s because of the lack of ETCS but perhaps that is just from Airport Junction to Reading.
I reckon they'll just be worried about the Heathrow branch
 

kevin_roche

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SamuelMorris has explained well. A reasonable number of 315s are still need to run services into LST high level while the 7 to 9 car conversion (upto 12 weeks) is done so no point in getting rid of them or storing. Completely different software and certain features currently disabled on the 7car ones so some testing needed post conversion before being used.

The software on the 7 car trains is only running the TPWS signalling software so is not suitable for use in the Central Section (including the line to Abbey Wood) which uses CBTC or in the Heathrow tunnels which uses ETCS. The 9 Car trains run ETCS software with the TPWS and CBTC software running as Specific Transmission Modules.
 

JonathanH

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SamuelMorris has explained well. A reasonable number of 315s are still need to run services into LST high level while the 7 to 9 car conversion (upto 12 weeks) is done so no point in getting rid of them or storing. Completely different software and certain features currently disabled on the 7car ones so some testing needed post conversion before being used.

That didn't stop them converting 345029.

The evening switchover still seems to be happening at Hayes & Harlington so 9-cars not running all day out of Paddington just yet. I assume that once 9-car running happens on the west side all day, four additional 7-cars will release 8 315s for scrap on the East side.

Was there an obvious reason for converting 345029?
 

matt_world2004

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Im wondering if it would be possible to run the existing tfl rail service into liverpool street low level, terminate and turn them there this would allow the liverpool street platform works to be completed and nine cars on the great eastern branch.
 

hwl

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That didn't stop them converting 345029.

The evening switchover still seems to be happening at Hayes & Harlington so 9-cars not running all day out of Paddington just yet. I assume that once 9-car running happens on the west side all day, four additional 7-cars will release 8 315s for scrap on the East side.

Was there an obvious reason for converting 345029?
Circa 16-20x 315 needed for the change over if being cautious, so we aren't a minimum 315 levels yet hence a few more can go. (An older plan was to retain 12 but that assumed Phase 5 Reading wasn't running when the conversion happen.
029 not doing anything else testing wise e.g. some sequential number groups of units are used for different types of testing (e.g. 6 for core signalling with pairs with idential software) others used for Heathrow /GW 9car testing as well as few units for general rolling stock testing (high mileage)
 

hwl

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Im wondering if it would be possible to run the existing tfl rail service into liverpool street low level, terminate and turn them there this would allow the liverpool street platform works to be completed and nine cars on the great eastern branch.
Impossible to turn stuff fast enough unless very few trains as the infrastructure wasn't designed for it.
Impossible if Abbey Wood - Paddington is running.
 

kevin_roche

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Im wondering if it would be possible to run the existing tfl rail service into liverpool street low level, terminate and turn them there this would allow the Liverpool street platform works to be completed and nine cars on the great eastern branch.

There will be dynamic testing or trial running taking place at some times between Abbey Wood and Paddington which would make it impossible.

Also the units would have to switch to the CBTC signalling system which I believe has not passed testing yet on the 9 car units and is not implemented on the 7 car units.
 

moggie

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Do you think they are waiting for the completion of the ETCS install from Paddington to Heathrow? IIRC it is scheduled for completion at Easter 2020. Originally I assumed they would Start from Paddington using TPWS and switch to ETCS at Airport Junction. What will the trains to reading do? Will they use TPWS all the way or use ETCS to Airport Junction and then switch to TPWS?

I thought that Network rail were enhancing the GWML TPWS to make it work for the 345s because of the lack of ETCS but perhaps that is just from Airport Junction to Reading.

I think it will be some time yet before operational ETCS is present on GWML. Any work at present except for the Heathrow Branch is merely preparatory AIUI. Hence the temporary requirement for enhanced TPWS fit to allow 345's and 387's to operate in lieu of 332's along GWML with an equivalent level of signal overrun mitigation in the absence of GW-ATP on 345's. The short term plan to allow 345's into Heathrow will be as you state; TPWS Paddington to Stockley Jcn (and beyond) with ETCS for Heathrow Branch. I've no idea when they expect full ETCS operation out of Paddington.
 

samuelmorris

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Interesting to see that the eastern stations have been rebranded from TfL Rail to Elizabeth line at this early stage (just without the Elizabeth line names). I also note that some almost deliberately poor quality station name signs adorn the fast line platforms at these stations now. What's the point of that?
 

Horizon22

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I've noticed they've opened up the area behind Farringdon now - it's still boarded off but you can see part of the new roof area.
 

matt_world2004

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Interesting to see that the eastern stations have been rebranded from TfL Rail to Elizabeth line at this early stage (just without the Elizabeth line names). I also note that some almost deliberately poor quality station name signs adorn the fast line platforms at these stations now. What's the point of that?
Western stations have purple paintwork in places but still blue signage
 

158756

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It is at Harry Needle’s depot at Worksop. A variety of stock is being stored there.

How come they're in storage there rather than London? Is some depot or stabling space inaccessible because the line isn't finished?
 

matt_world2004

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How come they're in storage there rather than London? Is some depot or stabling space inaccessible because the line isn't finished?
I think royal oak and plumsted sidings are currently inaccessible through regular operations . I believe there is a plan to stable some in some of the core stations to minimise the risk of graffiti. Also terminal 4 I believe will be a stabling point.
 

DynamicSpirit

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I think royal oak and plumsted sidings are currently inaccessible through regular operations . I believe there is a plan to stable some in some of the core stations to minimise the risk of graffiti. Also terminal 4 I believe will be a stabling point.

Yeah, quite often when I go past Plumstead on SouthEastern, I notice a lot of work still seems to be going on on the Crossrail sidings there. No idea what they are doing though - and somewhat surprised that they aren't yet completed.
 

JN114

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Yeah, quite often when I go past Plumstead on SouthEastern, I notice a lot of work still seems to be going on on the Crossrail sidings there. No idea what they are doing though - and somewhat surprised that they aren't yet completed.

They’re currently used by the fit out works trains. Once they’ve finished being used for that they can be converted/commissioned as Crossrail stabling.
 

hwl

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Also stabling /depot space taken up on the GE end by 315s until the Liverpool Street High Level Platform works are completed as the 7->9car conversions take place.

Hence total shortfall (inc Plumstead etc.) is about 15 units worth?
 

Class 170101

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Also stabling /depot space taken up on the GE end by 315s until the Liverpool Street High Level Platform works are completed as the 7->9car conversions take place.

Hence total shortfall (inc Plumstead etc.) is about 15 units worth?

To a point, but I would have thought the units in Aldersbrook CS would be the last to go as those sidings can only accommodate Class 345s (7 cars) or Class 315s (8 cars) thus removing the Class 315s from Ilford Depot first would free up space for 9 car Class 345s.
 

hwl

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To a point, but I would have thought the units in Aldersbrook CS would be the last to go as those sidings can only accommodate Class 345s (7 cars) or Class 315s (8 cars) thus removing the Class 315s from Ilford Depot first would free up space for 9 car Class 345s.
To a certain extent yes but the TfL315s still need maintenance, the 378 refurbs will restart and the LO 710 for 315 /317 will start soon so Ilford space will be tight...
 

Class 170101

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To a certain extent yes but the TfL315s still need maintenance, the 378 refurbs will restart and the LO 710 for 315 /317 will start soon so Ilford space will be tight...

Class 315s yes to maintenance but would only need one or two paths in and out of the depot per day to maintain the link to/from Ilford Depot.
 

kevin_roche

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I think it will be some time yet before operational ETCS is present on GWML. Any work at present except for the Heathrow Branch is merely preparatory AIUI. Hence the temporary requirement for enhanced TPWS fit to allow 345's and 387's to operate in lieu of 332's along GWML with an equivalent level of signal overrun mitigation in the absence of GW-ATP on 345's. The short term plan to allow 345's into Heathrow will be as you state; TPWS Paddington to Stockley Jcn (and beyond) with ETCS for Heathrow Branch. I've no idea when they expect full ETCS operation out of Paddington.

I went to a meeting of the Thames Valley branch of the Institution of Engineering Technology held in Reading on 5th September. At the meeting Paul Stanford Network Rail Programme Director Western Route gave an overview of changes made for Crossrail. In a response to my question at the end of his talk, he confirmed that Network Rail plan to have ETCS working between Paddington and Airport Junction by Easter 2020 but that Crossrail plans to use the Enhanced TPWS between Paddington and Airport Junction for the services to Heathrow and Reading now being planned for Stage 5A and for Stage 2.2.
 

matt_world2004

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I went to a meeting of the Thames Valley branch of the Institution of Engineering Technology held in Reading on 5th September. At the meeting Paul Stanford Network Rail Programme Director Western Route gave an overview of changes made for Crossrail. In a response to my question at the end of his talk, he confirmed that Network Rail plan to have ETCS working between Paddington and Airport Junction by Easter 2020 but that Crossrail plans to use the Enhanced TPWS between Paddington and Airport Junction for the services to Heathrow and Reading now being planned for Stage 5A and for Stage 2.2.
Reading between the lines or that it sounds like they want class 345s on the heathrow branch before easter 2020.
 
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