LNR new WCML timetable, May 2019 (in open data feeds)

Esker-pades · 15 Sep 2019

Possible solution:
Stable a 350 as a hot spare at Rugeley. That way, if there is a delay, one just has to bring out the hot spare and run it to time back towards Birmingham and London. When the trains start arriving on time again, one puts a 350 back in the stabling point.

To make it work from a crew perspective, make the crew diagrams such that every crew drops one train back at Rugeley. IE: the crew arriving at XX:10 would work the XX:46 back, rather than the XX:19.

There's probably something glaringly obvious that I've missed out. What do people think?

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The Planner · 15 Sep 2019

FelixtheCat said:
Possible solution:
Stable a 350 as a hot spare at Rugeley. That way, if there is a delay, one just has to bring out the hot spare and run it to time back towards Birmingham and London. When the trains start arriving on time again, one puts a 350 back in the stabling point.

To make it work from a crew perspective, make the crew diagrams such that every crew drops one train back at Rugeley. IE: the crew arriving at XX:10 would work the XX:46 back, rather than the XX:19.

There's probably something glaringly obvious that I've missed out. What do people think?

Where is it sitting at Rugeley if the service is working ok?

Bletchleyite · 15 Sep 2019

FelixtheCat said:
There's probably something glaringly obvious that I've missed out. What do people think?

If you watch RTT, the issue is crews, not units - the units are very often sat there waiting for a crew. Having a spare crew or two at all the changeover points (particularly New St) ready to go would probably be a far better short-term fix. That or diagramming a break in addition to the PNB for crews swapping between a northbound and southbound train or vice versa.

You did mention that, to be fair, but I think it is mostly that.

The Planner · 15 Sep 2019

sufian123 said:
never say never

Unless you extend the Wolves local as per the original plan I don't see how you could do that. Even then I would expect it to get run down by the XC behind it.

Bletchleyite · 15 Sep 2019

RealTrains07 said:
What i mean is from may 2020 their is a spare euston to brum service which could be extended up to crewe on the wobble?

That would just make it unreliable again. If there is to be a second service that way, it really needs to be completely standalone.

sd0733 · 15 Sep 2019

FelixtheCat said:
Possible solution:
Stable a 350 as a hot spare at Rugeley. That way, if there is a delay, one just has to bring out the hot spare and run it to time back towards Birmingham and London. When the trains start arriving on time again, one puts a 350 back in the stabling point.

To make it work from a crew perspective, make the crew diagrams such that every crew drops one train back at Rugeley. IE: the crew arriving at XX:10 would work the XX:46 back, rather than the XX:19.

There's probably something glaringly obvious that I've missed out. What do people think?

Rugeley has no facilities at all, apart from a waiting shelter for Crews so it would never ever be allowed to drop back crews there.
Also if you left a unit at Rugeley then Every other service would be cancelled as it would have no platform to go to, there is nowhere to put a hot spare.

Bletchleyite · 15 Sep 2019

sd0733 said:
Rugeley has no facilities at all, apart from a waiting shelter for Crews so it would never ever be allowed to drop back crews there.
Also if you left a unit at Rugeley then Every other service would be cancelled as it would have no platform to go to, there is nowhere to put a hot spare.

It would make more sense to drop crews back at New St, anyway, ideally on all three "branches".

sufian123 · 15 Sep 2019

The Planner said:
Unless you extend the Wolves local as per the original plan I don't see how you could do that. Even then I would expect it to get run down by the XC behind it.

Pathing issues. Thanks

sd0733 · 15 Sep 2019

Bletchleyite said:
It would make more sense to drop crews back at New St, anyway, ideally on all three "branches".

Cant speak for all depots but most of the 'wobble' work already does that as by its nature has around a 50 minute break at New Street, Liverpools are a different story with a lot of time getting there at xx18, waiting for the 'wobble' service on order to lock the doors for the coupling, waiting while.its done, re-release and then work the 36 back out.
A massive issue with Liverpools aswell is if the xx:04 is even 2 or 3 mins late the xx:07 stopper is put out 1st almost guaranteeing a 20 late departure from Wolves and an early termination at South Parkway.
I've asked the question about this, its apparantly gone up the chain, never to be answered by the looks of it.
As a complete aside I notice on RTT that the use of the class 9 headcodes seems to cease in the Decemeber timetable.

Bletchleyite · 15 Sep 2019

sd0733 said:
Cant speak for all depots but most of the 'wobble' work already does that as by its nature has around a 50 minute break at New Street, Liverpools are a different story with a lot of time getting there at xx18, waiting for the 'wobble' service on order to lock the doors for the coupling, waiting while.its done, re-release and then work the 36 back out.

That sounds like it could well be the main issue - and it does look like Liverpools are involved in whatever trouble does kick off. If there was a way to add half an hour to that I reckon it could well help substantially.

sd0733 · 15 Sep 2019

RealTrains07 said:
What i mean is from may 2020 their is a spare euston to brum service which could be extended up to crewe on the wobble?

I'd be amazed if that happens for a long time. There needs to be resilience built into any future timetables and adding this does the opposite.
I can't see it getting a path for a start to get to Wolves then through Stafford, Stoke and the single line between Crewe and Alsager.
A better bet to give Stone a second Train would IMO be to extend the Northern stopper to Stafford which given improved acceleration of a 331 may just give it a head start over the xx:44 voyager from stoke and enable 4 coach units to be used as they're not then using the 3car Stoke bay but that's way off topic for this thread!

RealTrains07 · 15 Sep 2019

sd0733 said:
I'd be amazed if that happens for a long time. There needs to be resilience built into any future timetables and adding this does the opposite.
I can't see it getting a path for a start to get to Wolves then through Stafford, Stoke and the single line between Crewe and Alsager.
A better bet to give Stone a second Train would IMO be to extend the Northern stopper to Stafford which given improved acceleration of a 331 may just give it a head start over the xx:44 voyager from stoke and enable 4 coach units to be used as they're not then using the 3car Stoke bay but that's way off topic for this thread!

Well their is platform 6 at stafford so it could work

We need to give the current timetable more of a chance to stabilise. Like i said before its only been 4 months

RealTrains07 · 15 Sep 2019

Something i’ve noticed on RTT with the december timetable is more trains from crewe to walsall in the weekday mornings?

Perhaps we will be seeing more of that?

Would a crewe to rugeley via birmingham be better?

Stone is still missing late night trains back to stafford though which is annoying

sufian123 · 15 Sep 2019

RealTrains07 said:
Something i’ve noticed on RTT with the december timetable is more trains from crewe to walsall in the weekday mornings?

Perhaps we will be seeing more of that?

Would a crewe to rugeley via birmingham be better?

Stone is still missing late night trains back to stafford though which is annoying

crewe-Walsall via stoke. Is replacing Shrewsbury-Walsall all stations from new st. As complains of 2 or 3 cars dmu atm. They promised to make it right in December making it 4 cars again.

Esker-pades · 15 Sep 2019

The Planner said:
Where is it sitting at Rugeley if the service is working ok?

I thought there was a siding next to platform 1.

sd0733 · 15 Sep 2019

Bletchleyite said:
That sounds like it could well be the main issue - and it does look like Liverpools are involved in whatever trouble does kick off. If there was a way to add half an hour to that I reckon it could well help substantially.

Yes and there is also the fact the Liverpool is also covered by New Street and Wolves so even a problem at Shrewsbury/Redditch/Lichfield/Rugeley can cause trouble.

The Planner · 15 Sep 2019

FelixtheCat said:
I thought there was a siding next to platform 1.

Been out of use for donkeys years and is planned to be ripped up.

Esker-pades · 15 Sep 2019

The Planner said:
Been out of use for donkeys years and is planned to be ripped up.

sd0733 said:
Rugeley has no facilities at all, apart from a waiting shelter for Crews so it would never ever be allowed to drop back crews there.
Also if you left a unit at Rugeley then Every other service would be cancelled as it would have no platform to go to, there is nowhere to put a hot spare.

Those were the glaringly obvious things I was missing.

Thanks for the responses.

Bletchleyite · 15 Sep 2019

RealTrains07 said:
Well their is platform 6 at stafford so it could work

We need to give the current timetable more of a chance to stabilise. Like i said before its only been 4 months

4 months is plenty. If it doesn't work in a couple of weeks it's flawed.

MalaiseForever · 16 Sep 2019

Sick of the knock on effects this incompetent timetable is having on the services I use. VT and others can’t be happy with the situations.

Bletchleyite · 16 Sep 2019

As a slight aside, they can't write timetable leaflets properly now either. There no longer appears to exist a paper/PDF timetable showing all stations services from Northampton to Euston, only the summary one, and the Birmingham-Euston one now only shows services that go at least as far as Rugby. So there is no paper/PDF timetable which would allow you to work out a journey from, say, Bletchley to Kings Langley.

They really are utterly incompetent.

causton · 16 Sep 2019

Bletchleyite said:
As a slight aside, they can't write timetable leaflets properly now either. There no longer appears to exist a paper/PDF timetable showing all stations services from Northampton to Euston, only the summary one, and the Birmingham-Euston one now only shows services that go at least as far as Rugby. So there is no paper/PDF timetable which would allow you to work out a journey from, say, Bletchley to Kings Langley.

They really are utterly incompetent.

This was one of the biggest immediate complaints (before the timetable started and on the first day) - there was a big Number One timetable book under LM which of course LNR copied for the first timetable, which had all stops Birmingham - Euston and it was easy to work out the service pattern... and just when you needed it, it disappeared

xydancer · 17 Sep 2019

causton said:
This was one of the biggest immediate complaints (before the timetable started and on the first day) - there was a big Number One timetable book under LM which of course LNR copied for the first timetable, which had all stops Birmingham - Euston and it was easy to work out the service pattern... and just when you needed it, it disappeared

But something even better may be on its way.

In the July 31 issue of Rail Magazine, Barry Doe reported that he took up the non-publication of the previous book with LNWR, who "immediately explained that Network Rail was late in agreeing times for May for some parts of its network. This would have led to the book being delayed, breaching its requirements to have publicity out in advance of changes. It therefore opted for folders so it could produce some well in advance and only have to wait for the final few routes to be agreed with NR.

"I was told that LNWR hopes to produce a single volume book for its entire long-distance, suburban and West Midlands network for December. Indeed, that it would emulate the excellent (and much lamented) South West Trains timetable book and be similar to Great Western Railways' current book in containing a good deal of general information about its trains, ticket types, ticket offices and so on."

Whether it actually happens and will be free, could of course be another matter.

Plus, don't forget that you can download tables from Network Rail's National Rail Timetable (that used to be on sale as a book). Table 66 is comprehensive, all-services for Euston-Northampton and all stations between. You have to download the whole thing as a zip file, then just extract the pdfs for the tables you need. I always do this for the routes I most commonly use.

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/the-timetable/electronic-national-rail-timetable/

RealTrains07 · 17 Sep 2019

Anyone been checking RTT in general for december changes?

Liverpool will only be getting 1 train back to london per hour unlike the 2 it gets now

The pattern going forward is the same as now so i guess it makes sense having 1 to and from london and 1 to and from Birmingham

this means that yet another euston to brum route is being freed up

splashoutradio · 17 Sep 2019

RealTrains07 said:
Liverpool will only be getting 1 train back to london per hour unlike the 2 it gets now

I may be misreading what you're saying, but I can see upto 3tph travelling between Liverpool and London. It may be worth noting that should a train join or detach on route, RTT can sometimes not show the true destination until you look at the details - an example here: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P81257/2019/12/17/advanced

sufian123 · 17 Sep 2019

RealTrains07 said:
Anyone been checking RTT in general for december changes?

Liverpool will only be getting 1 train back to london per hour unlike the 2 it gets now

The pattern going forward is the same as now so i guess it makes sense having 1 to and from london and 1 to and from Birmingham

this means that yet another euston to brum route is being freed up

nope it’s still the same. It’s attaches to RTT did the same in May as well.

xydancer · 17 Sep 2019

RealTrains07 said:
Liverpool will only be getting 1 train back to london per hour unlike the 2 it gets now

I'm one of the [un]lucky souls who does a bit of 'sense checking' for the public National Rail GB timetable.

A quick glance at the first cut of pdf of Table 68 for December appears to show two LNW Liverpool-London at xx10 and xx40 (combines at New Street with service from Crewe).
In the other direction, there seems to be only one London-Liverpool at xx49. The other Liverpool starts at Birmingham International.

But this first cut is a bit of a mess in places, including having trains that split shown as two totally separate services.

splashoutradio · 17 Sep 2019

I used to do a bit of 'sense checking' for the eNRT, too. Think NR may have lost interest in keeping it accurate and many contributors gave up when feedback wasn't acted upon. Anyway, I digress. Whilst it doesn't show the location of joining and detaching trains, this timetable (valid from December), uses open railway data to show journeys between Liverpool & London, if it's any help
www.railwaydata.co.uk/timetables/Dec19/timetable.php?table=2

RealTrains07 · 21 Sep 2019

Timetable collapsed once again today. Hasnt been this bad since the speed restrictions in summer

its not just rugeley that needs its services split the stoke loop does too

sufian123 · 21 Sep 2019

RealTrains07 said:
Timetable collapsed once again today. Hasnt been this bad since the speed restrictions in summer

its not just rugeley that needs its services split the stoke loop does too

stoke loop was meant to be wolves train extension. Due to opposition from mps and local alsager and kidsgrove, not to loose Euston services, via new street was chosen. I know stoke loop sometimes suffers, as not all crews sign via stoke, so they end up going via fast line.

LNR new WCML timetable, May 2019 (in open data feeds)

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