I'd rather my hip was rubbing up against an armrest than again some of my fellow passengers over the years.
But - in general - I don't think 3+2 really works in the U.K.
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Window alignment: can it be improved?
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I'd rather my hip was rubbing up against an armrest than again some of my fellow passengers over the years.
But - in general - I don't think 3+2 really works in the U.K.
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They are 20cm wider than UK stock...
bramling
Veteran Member
Networkers and 323s seem to achieved this very successfully. The original 365 interior layout was excellent - pretty much every seat on the whole train had a decent window view.
bramling
Veteran Member
The original 365 layout did exactly that too, and worked very well.
satisnek
Member
The Class 158 was indeed an inspired design, even if the facing bays are a little too cramped. Don't forget that the whole point of 'airline' seats, as introduced in the 1980s, was that it was possible to pack more seats into each carriage.
The window spacing on the Turbostar/Electrostar bodyshell, as well as Class 22x, has always struck me as being designed for 'old school' facing seat bays, although whether it's the BR standard 75 inches, I haven't measured.
As for the French Z50000, the colour scheme would be perfect for our franchising system, since the seats would be compatible with whatever external livery is applied! But no TV screens, please.
The window spacing on the Turbostar/Electrostar bodyshell, as well as Class 22x, has always struck me as being designed for 'old school' facing seat bays, although whether it's the BR standard 75 inches, I haven't measured.
As for the French Z50000, the colour scheme would be perfect for our franchising system, since the seats would be compatible with whatever external livery is applied! But no TV screens, please.
Bletchleyite
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And 323s to some extent.
hooverboy
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someone really ought to consider rotatable or moveable seats.
most people prefer to face the direction of travel, so these are always the first to fill up.
I find train travel smooth enough,but there are some people who ar quite motion sensitive that get travelsick.
most people prefer to face the direction of travel, so these are always the first to fill up.
I find train travel smooth enough,but there are some people who ar quite motion sensitive that get travelsick.
Mikey C
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The Networkers have an excellent seat/window layout, indeed that was one of the NSE design objectives for them. I guess it's easier as they are standard class only, but they have narrow windows pillars and windows chosen to be the right length for the seat spacing (rather than designing the train body and trying to fit in the seating afterwards). Plug doors also mean no annoying door pocket blank walls
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
"I'm intrigued that someone has different taste to me" is essentially what you're saying above.
That photo of the French EMU appears to not have the fixed armrests at every bay or between every seat on each row (though I can't be sure). If that's the case I can see the logic behind it: the aisle seat intended for short hops with the armrest separating it from the window and middle seat geared to those making longer journeys. The cars also look very wide compared to UK stock, so 3+2 is not so awkward.
Of course none of this has anything to do with window alignment, but seat discussion seems mandatory for every thread!
Yup, 3.06 m.
I brought up the Z 50000 because of a question about windows, showing the window size and alignement of the unit. As usual indeed, seats were mentioned.
Rolling stock designers for generations did the required seating layout first, and then offered this to the structure designers to fit the windows around it. However did it get accepted to do this the other way round? Even the integral body Mk 2 stock managed to have different and appropriate spacing for 1st and 2nd class seating.
However were Alstom allowed to get away with tiny windows and huge deadlights between them on Pendolinos, on the grounds that it was 125pph tilting stock, when Bombardier managed at the same time to do windows twice the size and much smaller deadlights on 125mph tilting Voyagers? And what interior designer of Pendolinos put the litter bin and luggage stack dead centre against a window mid-car, and then seats against a blank wall? This latter is double-ridiculous, because it is only necessary with the loss of the inter-seat luggage storage of the traditional Mk 2/Mk 3 (as built) stock, moving from seating bays to bus style seating..
London Underground long ago showed how to do door pockets with windows.
Plenty of examples of these overseas, either fully rotatable (Amtrak) or rollover seat backs, which also adjust the seat cushion appropriately (Sydney Australia suburban). Unfortunately both these do not allow the desperate tight pitch which is progressively becoming universal in Britain, which depends on you putting your feet under the posterior of the passenger in front.
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61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
LU-style glazed door pockets probably wouldn't be easy to make crash resilient for higher speeds, not without adding a lot of weight anyway.
The tiny windows on 390s are probably because Beardy wanted to capture the "glamour" of air travel.
The tiny windows on 390s are probably because Beardy wanted to capture the "glamour" of air travel.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
They're because of the Pendolino design. All Pendolinos have small windows.
WideRanger
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This is similar to the basic approach in Japan. On almost all long distance trains (both Shinkansen and otherwise), the seats are rotatable (or flippable). While they will normally be configured at the start of the journey as airline facing the direction of travel, passengers are free to change the direction themselves. So if you want a bay of 4 seats (or 6 where it is 3+2), passengers can simply switch one of the rows around.
People normally only do flip the seats around if they really want/need to face each other. Because one other happy result of the seat rotation system is that, in order for it to work, you need really generous pitch between the rows. So seats in airline configuration don't feel anything like as claustrophobic as compared to the UK. You also normally get a very generously sized seatback table. In contrast, if you do form a bay, you won't have a table at all. So there is nowhere to put your laptop / lunch / booze.
Normally the windows are alligned so that the centre of the window is in line with the rotational axis of the seats. So whichever way the seats face, you get the same view out of the window (which is often relatively small). If you have created a bay, then you'll get two windows for the bay (one connected with each row of seats).
The views from the windows are often quite restricted. But, there are a few important considerations:
- On the Shinkansen (with the smallest windows), there is often not much of a view out of the side in any case, because much of the track is in tunnel, and those parts that aren't often have high side barriers to reduce noise pollution. So you often can't see much at all.
- On slower trains, there if often an unobsured view out of the front of the train. So if the view is important to you, that's where you'll go.
- Even on trains with big windows, Japanese people will often shut the blinds on the windows to reduce sunlight coming in - for many people it is an automatic response to reduce the heat coming in, and to avoid getting a tan.
satisnek
Member
It all started with the Mk3, which had a single, universal bodyshell (well, until sleepers came along...) with grooved tracks running down the floor and sides to enable seats to be fitted in any position.
I think that BR Got It Right with the Mk2. Just three bodyshells - First Class, Second Class and Brake (the latter having First Class window spacing - a Mk2 BSO has bigger tables than a TSO). Of course, it helped that no Mk2 catering, sleeper or full brake vehicles were required to be built.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
@WideRanger Not to get a tan? UV doesn't penetrate glass.
That's an interesting take on it.
I must admit, as much as I'd like the ample leg room, I'd personally miss easy window gazing.
TractiveEffort
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That would keep the maintenance depots busy in the school holiday stone throwing season......
WideRanger
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Yep. It really is quite an automatic reaction for many Japanese people - even if it isn't scientifically sound. You'll often see people wearing arm covers while driving cars (with windows closed). More rationally, you will see a lot of parasols, and people (generally older people) wearing semi-transparent peaks while outside to keep the sun from faces.
A personal view, but there really is a different relationship to 'scenery' compared to the UK. Japan tends to concentrate its consciousness of natural beauty to relatively few (but stunning areas), with high tolerance of ugliness elsewhere. So it's not quite the same feeling for people on the trains as it would be for Brits.
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
If you're pale (and particularly if you're a redhead with freckles: the "Celtic Curse" as I call it!) you'll still get sunburn if you're in a car with aircon and the windows closed on a hot sunny day. Not as severely as if you'd been sat outside, but it will still happen if you aren't wearing sunscreen. It may only be anecdotal evidence but it was enough that I only made that mistake once!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Comparing "abroad" with the UK, I was on an Italo EMU Sunday last (basically a New Pendolino), and while it was quite pleasant, in First Class (yes, First Class), approximately half the airline rows had no window whatsoever. (I had been careful to book a row which had a full window).
This seems really very poor to me, particularly given that the spacing was roughly contiguous with the windows, it was just offset from where it should have been to give each seat half a window.
The day before I was on a TGV (also in 1st) which had better alignment but the father of a child sitting in front of me was rather unimpressed when I told him no I wasn't having the blind fully closed just so she could use her phone the whole time (why she couldn't swap with him on the other side of the aisle I have no idea). I did allow it to be lowered a little to roughly my eye level (about half way ish) as a compromise. So this highlights that some people don't care about windows - but also that blinds are a really stupid idea.
This seems really very poor to me, particularly given that the spacing was roughly contiguous with the windows, it was just offset from where it should have been to give each seat half a window.
The day before I was on a TGV (also in 1st) which had better alignment but the father of a child sitting in front of me was rather unimpressed when I told him no I wasn't having the blind fully closed just so she could use her phone the whole time (why she couldn't swap with him on the other side of the aisle I have no idea). I did allow it to be lowered a little to roughly my eye level (about half way ish) as a compromise. So this highlights that some people don't care about windows - but also that blinds are a really stupid idea.
Glass blocks most of the UVB rays that 'burn' but still allows most of the UVA rays that 'age' skin.
This is because UVA rays are closer to the wavelength of visible light.
James James
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This is what the Swiss did when they trialled some airline seating on a few EW IV's. The airline seats ended up being rather unpopular, hence they retained bay-seating for the majority of the fleet - but at least for the trials that was the approach they used (Bay seating gives you much better views anyway, at least with high-backed seats.)
They also generally build different window-spacings to ensure alignment for 1st vs 2nd class (except for the Eurocity carriages where the 2nd class was built with 1st class spacing, meaning you get very generous legroom in 2nd).
[There's been some talk of adding a 3rd class to Swiss trains, which would basically be tighter airline-style seating, implicitly with no window-alignment guarantee. The likelihood of this happening is low, but there's been talk of doing it.]
I see plenty of luggage between seats. Especially nowadays with cantlivered seats. Happy to supply photo proof from my commute on Monday. Even in the UK (although only on longer-distance, e.g. MK IV's).
That's interesting. I guess the Swiss must be more exacting.
Which essentially is the point my attempt at a formula for window alignment was trying to make (though I have a feeling I may have messed up writing out the formula). Airline seat pitch needs to be exactly half the bay seat pitch. The other factor is that the width of the window plus one pillar needs to be equal to the bay pitch (although if the pillars are too big half the airline rows have a restricted view).[/URL]
ChrisC
Established Member
I’ve just returned after a holiday based in Inverness using a Spirit of Scotland Railrover. I was very impressed with the seating layout in the ScotRail 158’s I travelled on the Far North, Kyle of Lochalsh and Inverness to Aberdeen lines. Lots of tables where seats were aligned with the windows. Just how trains used to be and quite comfortable seats too.
Bevan Price
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People do use the luggage space between seat backs - but nowadays, this is only when other people show them that the space exists. Many are so used to seeing poorly designed trains without that space, they don't bother looking for it on any train.
To me, internal coach layouts have been getting steadily worse in recent years, with putting luggage racks in front of windows being one of the most stupid examples.
Mitchell Hurd
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Interesting thread this! I understand that on the XC HST sliding door sets that 11 seats have been taken out according to the thread for these.
Not great when you consider the capacity shortage but I was watching one on YouTube leave Newton Abbot on diagram 1S51 and noticed that where at least seat numbers 70 and 72 in Coach F - and I guess seats 77 and 79 in coaches C, D and E - plus the aisle table seats here have been ever so slightly pushed back. These window table seats now provide better window views!
Not great when you consider the capacity shortage but I was watching one on YouTube leave Newton Abbot on diagram 1S51 and noticed that where at least seat numbers 70 and 72 in Coach F - and I guess seats 77 and 79 in coaches C, D and E - plus the aisle table seats here have been ever so slightly pushed back. These window table seats now provide better window views!
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