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Worcestershire Parkway station progress

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GoneSouth

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They stop at Tiverton Parkway which is just as you have described above so why not Worcestershire Parkway?
Because a train that stops at every barn between Brum and Plymouth would take all day and push more people onto the M5!

Why not build the often proposed Gloucester Parkway too to make stopping patterns even more complicated :E
 
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RealTrains07

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Stopping some trains in a field somewhere out of town isn't exactly putting it on the cross country network either. Ultimately you'd just be slowing down the trains to allow users to make a change that could be better accommodated by running a decent service from Worcester to Cheltenham.
How exactly?? Forgate street and cheltenham are on different routes
 

Noddy

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Because a train that stops at every barn between Brum and Plymouth would take all day and push more people onto the M5!

Why not build the often proposed Gloucester Parkway too to make stopping patterns even more complicated :E

You didn’t answer the question though! Tiverton Parkway is both directly (close to the motorway network, (currently) in a field) and indirectly (on a junction between two intercity routes giving a potential interchange) comparable to Worcestershire Parkway and it’s been a success with both stopping and non-stop services passing through.
 
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Kite159

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It would also slightly reduce XC's ability to set high prices. An anytime peak single from Cheltenham to New Street is £26.25, Cheltenham to Worcester is £10.20 and Worcester to New Street is £8.80. You can't split because the Worcester stations aren't on the Cheltenham-Birmingham line, but including Worcestershire Parkway in this group would let people going between Birmingham and Gloucestershire/Bristol/South Wales get a cheaper ticket.

Although that will only work for the Flymo services rather than the main InterCity services.
 

edwin_m

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You didn’t answer the question though! Tiverton Parkway is both directly (close to the motorway network, (currently) in a field) and indirectly (on a junction between two intercity routes giving a potential interchange) comparable to Worcestershire Parkway and it’s been a success with both stopping and non-stop services passing through.
What interchange can be made at Tiverton that can't be made at Taunton or Exeter?
 

Sprinter107

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Tiverton Parkway is a different case to Worcestershire Parkway. Tiverton doesnt have two centrally placed stations offering more frequent services. Worcester does.
 

RealTrains07

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Tiverton Parkway is a different case to Worcestershire Parkway. Tiverton doesnt have two centrally placed stations offering more frequent services. Worcester does.
Well their must be a reason parkway is being built otherwise they wouldn’t have bothered and we wouldn’t be discussing this right now
 

Parallel

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Well their must be a reason parkway is being built otherwise they wouldn’t have bothered and we wouldn’t be discussing this right now
To serve the rural area of Worcestershire I’d assume. Giving the villages and small towns somewhere with adequate parking spaces and services to large cities that have congestion issues.

It will have direct services to Birmingham, Gloucester, Oxford, Cardiff, Derby, Nottingham, London, Worcester and limited services to Hereford. Then to the large towns of Cheltenham and Reading. I doubt it was built to serve Worcester - more likely trying to cater for longer distance journeys, or to Birmingham or Cheltenham commuters.

Really some sort of peak GWR service should start and terminate from the station, to Gloucester (maybe even Bristol) also stopping at Ashchurch which gets a dire service.

The planned services seem quite infrequent so I hope they are aiming to entice long distance passengers, at least to start with, otherwise, what’s the point??

This is an interesting topic, and an interesting station opening!
 

IanXC

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I've thought for a while that the next XC franchise ought to really include moving the 30/30 timetable to 20/20/20 (which obviously has issues with the timetable around it - but leave that aside for now).

The result of which I've thought for a while ought to allow the current Doncaster service to divert via Leeds, and then add an additional (with intermediate calls) Hull - Doncaster - Sheffield - Birmingham - Worcestershire Parkway - Gloucester - Bristol Temple Meads service.

That would allow for additional connectivity and additional capacity across the route, without getting into additional coupling/uncoupling arrangements on the very long distance services.
 

jimm

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Spot on. What is a bit frustrating is the fact that the existing GWR Bristol-Malvern can’t use the station as it would have been a useful place to change for Gloucester/Cheltenham - Oxford. But you can’t change the history of railway building. :E

Did you read my previous post pointing out that from Gloucester anyone going to Oxford will be far better off going via Didcot, unless they aren't in any great hurry - in addition, their chances of getting a seat on an hourly GWR IET service going to Didcot from December will be much better than trying to get on an XC two-car Class 170 to or from Worcestershire Parkway. And they won't have to pay the no doubt very reasonable fare set by XC (sarcasm alert). The GWR Bristol-Malvern services only run every couple of hours and are of precious little use for any purpose as a result.

I wouldn't be so sure about that time limit for commuters. There are plenty of people who commute over that time into London, and certainly when we lived in Worcester some years ago there were people doing it.

I didn't say no one was a regular London commuter from Worcester, but the fact remains that any regular commute for several days a week with a journey time of 90 minutes or more each way - so commuting to London from Moreton-in-Marsh and anywhere further west in Cotswold Line terms - is regarded as extreme commuting and statistically very few people do it. No wonder, given the amount of time all that travelling takes out of someone's life.

To serve the rural area of Worcestershire I’d assume. Giving the villages and small towns somewhere with adequate parking spaces and services to large cities that have congestion issues.

It will have direct services to Birmingham, Gloucester, Oxford, Cardiff, Derby, Nottingham, London, Worcester and limited services to Hereford. Then to the large towns of Cheltenham and Reading. I doubt it was built to serve Worcester - more likely trying to cater for longer distance journeys, or to Birmingham or Cheltenham commuters.

Really some sort of peak GWR service should start and terminate from the station, to Gloucester (maybe even Bristol) also stopping at Ashchurch which gets a dire service.

The planned services seem quite infrequent so I hope they are aiming to entice long distance passengers, at least to start with, otherwise, what’s the point??

This is an interesting topic, and an interesting station opening!

The Parkway station has always been intended to serve the city of Worcester, as well as the surrounding area, and to offer long-distance connectivity for Worcestershire as a whole. It is located close to the southern and eastern bypass roads, which will make it accessible from much of Worcester with far less aggro than getting to Shrub Hill, which is where passenger for London who want to leave their car at a station for the day go at present And at one fell swoop Parkway will provide more car park spaces than all those available at the county's other railway stations added together.

I repeat, it was not built for Birmingham commuters, who are already pretty well provided for - and hardly anyone bothers trying to commute by rail to Cheltenham, because there are no GWR morning peak trains in either direction between about 07.00 and 09.00 and to get from Cheltenham Spa station to just about anywhere anyone actually wants to go in the town requires a bus or car ride, so the M5 wins hands down as a travel option.

An hourly Worcester-Cheltenham-Gloucester-Briatol service would make a difference, but until the Government changes the service level commitment to require that frequency - and GWR has enough dmus to provide it - that is not going to happen any time soon.

Worcester is pretty much ground zero for why Britain will be better off without FirstGroup in the bus industry. Having a council that would rather build a massively over-architected mess of a station in a field somewhere than fund a proper service doesn't help, but even going back to the BadgerBus days First have tried nothing in Worcester and are all out of ideas.

A nonsense argument - the money to pay for building the station is a combination of designated government grants and loans taken out by the county council, which will be repaid from the car park income.

A whole different kettle of fish from subsidising bus services - which most shire county councils have precious little money left to do as a result of years of cuts in their funding from the government - or none at all in the case of Oxfordshire, which axed all bus subsidies several years ago.
 
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Noddy

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What interchange can be made at Tiverton that can't be made at Taunton or Exeter?

That’s why Worcestershire Parkway is not directly comparable to Tiverton Parkway! The latter offers no interchange possibilities.

Tiverton Parkway is a different case to Worcestershire Parkway. Tiverton doesnt have two centrally placed stations offering more frequent services. Worcester does.

Yeah but Worcester is also five times the size of Tiverton, and while it does have reasonable services to both Birmingham and London from its two central stations they offer no, and next to no parking. So if you live in the suburbs or outlying towns and villages they are next to useless unless you cycle or can catch one of the few remaining buses, or pay for parking somewhere and walk to the station. And even if there was more provision for parking at Shrub Hill good luck getting there down London Road, Barborne Road/the Tithing or the other clogged up roads in the city. Even if you live in the north of the city (say Claines or Fernall Heath), where Droitwich would be a better option than the city centre stations the Parkway station is easy to get to round the bypass and down the M5 and is certainly a better option if you are heading towards London.
 
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jimm

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And the closest stations to Tiverton Parkway are 14 miles and 16 miles away (Taunton and Exeter), with the station always intended to serve a large part of rural Devon.

Worcester is ringed by Droitwich Spa station (6 miles from Foregate Street), Pershore (8 miles), Malvern Link (6 miles) and Great Malvern (7 miles). With all of them except Droitwich already having direct London services and all but Pershore having direct Birmingham services.

A whole different kettle of fish from Tiverton. Trying to make comparisons between different Parkway stations is not going to get you anywhere, as there are distinct local factors influencing their locations and what roles they fulfil.
 

Class 170101

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I repeat, it was not built for Birmingham commuters, who are already pretty well provided for - and hardly anyone bothers trying to commute by rail to Cheltenham, because there are no GWR morning peak trains in either direction between about 07.00 and 09.00 and to get from Cheltenham Spa station to just about anywhere anyone actually wants to go in the town requires a bus or car ride, so the M5 wins hands down as a travel option.

From December there looks to be this train which arrives in Worcester (Shrub Hill) around 08:00 from London via Swindon
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y94282/2019/12/18/advanced
and a similar journey in the opposite direction from Worcester to Gloucester arriving around 08:00
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y94289/2019/12/18/advanced
Though the return journeys aren't made on IEPs but 15x / 16x units so maybe the morning trains might not be as well used due to weak evening provision.

An hourly Worcester-Cheltenham-Gloucester-Briatol service would make a difference, but until the Government changes the service level commitment to require that frequency - and GWR has enough dmus to provide it - that is not going to happen any time soon.

Technically if Gloucester Parkway was built that journey could be provided by XC on the Bristol to Manchester service. However the two hourly local town to town service is hardly likely to generate demand and I agree it should go hourly as soon as possible. Perhaps to start with by extending the London to Cheltenham service onwards to Worcester Shrub Hill.
 

jimm

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From December there looks to be this train which arrives in Worcester (Shrub Hill) around 08:00 from London via Swindon
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y94282/2019/12/18/advanced
and a similar journey in the opposite direction from Worcester to Gloucester arriving around 08:00
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y94289/2019/12/18/advanced
Though the return journeys aren't made on IEPs but 15x / 16x units so maybe the morning trains might not be as well used due to weak evening provision.

Technically if Gloucester Parkway was built that journey could be provided by XC on the Bristol to Manchester service. However the two hourly local town to town service is hardly likely to generate demand and I agree it should go hourly as soon as possible. Perhaps to start with by extending the London to Cheltenham service onwards to Worcester Shrub Hill.

I was referring to the departure times at either end. The current service between Worcester and Cheltenham/Gloucester in both directions is limited and erratic in the morning peak period - with no arrival anywhere near 9am at either end) and this does not change in any meaningful way from December. The type of rolling stock is neither here nor there if the service is not fit for purpose anyway and Worcestershire Parkway was never intended to fix this particular problem.
 

Neen Sollars

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To serve the rural area of Worcestershire I’d assume. Giving the villages and small towns somewhere with adequate parking spaces and services to large cities that have congestion issues.

It will have direct services to Birmingham, Gloucester, Oxford, Cardiff, Derby, Nottingham, London, Worcester and limited services to Hereford. Then to the large towns of Cheltenham and Reading. I doubt it was built to serve Worcester - more likely trying to cater for longer distance journeys, or to Birmingham or Cheltenham commuters.

The planned services seem quite infrequent so I hope they are aiming to entice long distance passengers, at least to start with, otherwise, what’s the point??

This is an interesting topic, and an interesting station opening!

Time will tell. The station operator should bring in the professional people counters to assess the footfall pattern of the passengers - which trains are they using? Where is the actual demand? Do your surveys every four months in the first two years, react accordingly. My guess, and that is what you are doing people, is most will head north to/via Brum, then south east to London, then south s/w to/via Bristol, finally west to Worcester stations for Hereford and Stourbridge lines
 
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Class172

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Since most of Worcestershire is already well catered for regarding Birmingham-bound services, I don't foresee a significant uplift in usage between Parkway and New St on the XC services. Those who do will likely be from the Pershore/Evesham areas as they don't currently have easy access to the city. I personally see the primary direction of usage being towards London, particularly as part of the station's aim is to lure back those passengers who currently drive via motorway to Warwick Parkway with it's plentiful parking.

The current track layout at Worcester currently prevents more practical solutions for passengers in the eastern side of the county. Ideally I would extend the Foregate St. terminating services through Shrub Hill to Parkway, and potentially onwards to Evesham to terminate there, however services cannot currently do this due to the independence of the two platforms at Foregate St.
 

jimm

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Time will tell. The station operator should bring in the professional people counters to assess the footfall pattern of the passengers - which trains are they using? Where is the actual demand? Do your surveys every four months in the first two years, react accordingly. My guess, and that is what you are doing people, is most will head north to/via Brum, then south east to London, then south s/w to/via Bristol, finally west to Worcester stations for Hereford and Stourbridge lines

You need to edit your post - you have mangled the quote and removed the attribution to Parallel, who wrote the top three paragraphs back in post 609.

After sinking a lot of public money into this project, Worcestershire County Council is indeed going to want to know how people are using the station and has probably got its consultants contracted to do just that once passengers can use the station.

Those of us who know the area and the existing rail services (both WMR and XC) and how they are used are taking fairly educated guesses, so please forgive our scepticism about the theory advanced by you and others that most passengers at Worcestershire Parkway will be going to Birmingham.

As has already been discussed, the XC services will be provided by 2 or 3-car Class 170s, which often run full to the doors between Birmingham and Cheltenham (and beyond) at the busiest times of the day (weekends included) and have done for years. The Parkway station will not be part of the Worcester stations fares group, with the XC fare no doubt set at a premium rate compared with the WMR price.

XC trains will only run hourly, with all of two trains from the Parkway into Birmingham by about 9am on weekdays, compared with a dozen from Shrub Hill and/or Foregate Street to New Street or Snow Hill and Moor Street. Those dozen WMR services offer way more seating capacity out of Worcester (with more rolling stock to come shortly) than there will be on two services that are already very busy, before they get anywhere near Worcestershire Parkway, and with no current prospect of any extra rolling stock.
 

Class 170101

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The current track layout at Worcester currently prevents more practical solutions for passengers in the eastern side of the county. Ideally I would extend the Foregate St. terminating services through Shrub Hill to Parkway, and potentially onwards to Evesham to terminate there, however services cannot currently do this due to the independence of the two platforms at Foregate St.

However you could extend some of the Shrub Hill Terminators as these don't run via Foregate Street, assuming of course they fit on the single line to Worcester Parkway
 

Sprinter107

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How many Birmingham passengers will want to pay the higher fare, for a less frequent train. The fares are being set by Cross Country, so will fall into line with other fares on that line.
 

Class 170101

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How many Birmingham passengers will want to pay the higher fare, for a less frequent train. The fares are being set by Cross Country, so will fall into line with other fares on that line.

Presumably though if LM did operate services to the High Level Station as I suggested in my previous post they could set their own LM fare from the station which could be similar to the rest of the Worcestershire group stations?
 

VT 390

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Presumably though if LM did operate services to the High Level Station as I suggested in my previous post they could set their own LM fare from the station which could be similar to the rest of the Worcestershire group stations?
But most of the WMR services which could be extended to Parkway (the Shrub Hill terminators) are from the Snow Hill lines which takes longer than the New Street ones so Birmingham passengers would probably end up having a longer journey.
 

Class 170101

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But most of the WMR services which could be extended to Parkway (the Shrub Hill terminators) are from the Snow Hill lines which takes longer than the New Street ones so Birmingham passengers would probably end up having a longer journey.

Very true but there may be some growth where car parking or the roads to the station are a problem and moving this to Worcester Parkway may encourage people to use the train raher than drive to Birmingham as they can actually get to the station and park their car.

Also perhaps these could start / terminate at Worcester Parkway instead of Shrub Hill
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P81306/2019/12/18/advanced
or
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P81465/2019/12/18/advanced
 

Noddy

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XC trains will only run hourly, with all of two trains from the Parkway into Birmingham by about 9am on weekdays, compared with a dozen from Shrub Hill and/or Foregate Street to New Street or Snow Hill and Moor Street. Those dozen WMR services offer way more seating capacity out of Worcester (with more rolling stock to come shortly) than there will be on two services that are already very busy, before they get anywhere near Worcestershire Parkway, and with no current prospect of any extra rolling stock.

I haven’t seen the new timetable-how long is it timetabled to take from Parkway as opposed to Foregate St/Shrub Hill? Is there a penalty either way or are they broadly similar?
 

Neen Sollars

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To serve the rural area of Worcestershire I’d assume. Giving the villages and small towns somewhere with adequate parking spaces and services to large cities that have congestion issues.

It will have direct services to Birmingham, Gloucester, Oxford, Cardiff, Derby, Nottingham, London, Worcester and limited services to Hereford. Then to the large towns of Cheltenham and Reading. I doubt it was built to serve Worcester - more likely trying to cater for longer distance journeys, or to Birmingham or Cheltenham commuters.

Really some sort of peak GWR service should start and terminate from the station, to Gloucester (maybe even Bristol) also stopping at Ashchurch which gets a dire service.

The planned services seem quite infrequent so I hope they are aiming to entice long distance passengers, at least to start with, otherwise, what’s the point??

This is an interesting topic, and an interesting station opening!

Time will tell. The station operator should bring in the professional people counters to assess the footfall pattern of the passengers - which trains are they using? Where is the actual demand? Do your surveys every four months in the first two years, react accordingly. My guess, and that is what you are doing people, is most will head north to/via Brum, then south east to London, then south s/w to/via Bristol, finally west to Worcester stations for Hereford and Stourbridge lines.
 
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Sprinter107

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Time will tell. The station operator should bring in the professional people counters to assess the footfall pattern of the passengers - which trains are they using? Where is the actual demand? Do your surveys every four months in the first two years, react accordingly. My guess, and that is what you are doing people, is most will head north to/via Brum, then south east to London, then south s/w to/via Bristol, finally west to Worcester stations for Hereford and Stourbridge lines.
With the more expensive fare to Birmingham from Worcestershire Parkway, and the infrequent service, I doubt very much that most passengers will head for Birmingham. I would think most will be for the Oxford line
 
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Neen Sollars

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Little wonder that XC are reluctant to stop at Worcs. Parkway if they are already rammed, obvious answer more coaches on the XC services, if there were they might still be rammed on arrival at WP because more passengers would join at earlier stations. If WP is to be just another feeder for London why build the lower level? Of course in the next few years Oxford station is to become a major rail hub with a station redevelopment a new platform 5 and likely a through platform 2. Change at Oxford for EWR trains to Milton Keynes, Bedford, Cambridge, Norwich and Ipswich. So passenger demand going south east to Oxford and beyond should be strong.
 

Sprinter107

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Little wonder that XC are reluctant to stop at Worcs. Parkway if they are already rammed, obvious answer more coaches on the XC services, if there were they might still be rammed on arrival at WP because more passengers would join at earlier stations. If WP is to be just another feeder for London why build the lower level? Of course in the next few years Oxford station is to become a major rail hub with a station redevelopment a new platform 5 and likely a through platform 2. Change at Oxford for EWR trains to Milton Keynes, Bedford, Cambridge, Norwich and Ipswich. So passenger demand going south east to Oxford and beyond should be strong.
Very much so. Itll be such a useful link across to the East, and being able to avoid changing trains in Birmingham or London. I suspect itll do very well.
 

VT 390

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I haven’t seen the new timetable-how long is it timetabled to take from Parkway as opposed to Foregate St/Shrub Hill? Is there a penalty either way or are they broadly similar?
I have not seen the timetable either but I would think the XC service from Parkway will be slightly quicker than the WMR Foregate/Shrub Hill services but only if you do not have easy access already to the central Worcester stations as the time it would take to get to Parkway may be more overall than getting the WMR services.
 

Kite159

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I guess in theory the low level platforms could potentially open up more options for Worcester Shrub Hill <-> Cheltenham Spa if the timings work out. Which I assume will be valid on a Worcester - Cheltenham ticket
 
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