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Bylaw18: Wording question...

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law18

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My english isn't perfect here... What does *any* mean in this context?

> No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if: (i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of *any* ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey; or...


If there was a working ticket machine, but it could not issue group travel tickets, would I be in breach of the bylaw if I boarded a train (with a group of people)?
 
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najaB

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law18 said:
If there was a working ticket machine, but it could not issue group travel tickets, would I be in breach of the bylaw if I boarded a train (with a group of people)?
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It's taken to mean "any suitable ticket".
 
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law18

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najaB said:
It's taken to mean "any suitable ticket".
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I'm still unsure what you mean...

In my group example, does that mean it would be illegal for the group to board the train because the facilities can issue anytime single tickets which would be suitable?

Or does it mean that because a group ticket would be suitable for the group of people, and there are no facilities in working order to issue that, then I cannot be in breach of Bylaw 18 (1)?
 
najaB

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law18 said:
In my group example, does that mean it would be illegal for the group to board the train because the facilities can issue anytime single tickets which would be suitable?

Or does it mean that because a group ticket would be suitable for the group of people, and there are no facilities in working order to issue that, then I cannot be in breach of Bylaw 18 (1)?
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Well, notices at most (all?) stations say that the NRoC / NRCoT apply, and they state that where you are unable to purchase a ticket:
In these cases, you must, as soon as you are reasonably able, buy an appropriate Ticket to complete your journey. The price of the Ticket you purchase will be the same as if you had bought a Ticket at the station from which you first departed.
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So, I believe you would be able to argue that you could not be compelled to pay more than you would have paid if you were able to purchase at the station.

So you'd be okay to board and buy the group ticket from the guard or at another station.
 
1B85

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If you wished to purchase the group ticket and this was not available from the machine, no, you would not be in breach of the byelaws.

You should however seek out the guard on-board as he can issue these.
 
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Jona26

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1B85 said:
If you wished to purchase the group ticket and this was not available from the machine, no, you would not be in breach of the byelaws.

You should however seek out the guard on-board as he can issue these.
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I thought it had already been established that there is absolutely no obligation to seek out the guard.

In fact there may not even be anyone on board to issue tickets.
 
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Hadders

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I agree that there is no requirement to seek out the guard.
 
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JBuchananGB

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This happened to me while ago. Six of us turned up at St. Margaret’s to go to Cheshunt. We spent 10 minutes trying to persuade the TVM to issue the appropriate Groupsave ticket, without success. Boarded the train ticketless. Almost immediately ticket inspector appeared. He accepted our explanation and instructed us to buy the tickets at Cheshunt, which we did.
 
WesternLancer

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Jona26 said:
I thought it had already been established that there is absolutely no obligation to seek out the guard.

In fact there may not even be anyone on board to issue tickets.
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But it would be wise to do so, both out of courtesy and in order to get advice on where to buy said ticket - as after all one would not wish to end up with say 4 penalty fares or arguments about that. However, some services will not have on board staff if they are one person operated services of course.

It seems common for TVMs to be unable to issue Groupsave tickets.
 
RPI

RPI

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WesternLancer said:
But it would be wise to do so, both out of courtesy and in order to get advice on where to buy said ticket - as after all one would not wish to end up with say 4 penalty fares or arguments about that. However, some services will not have on board staff if they are one person operated services of course.

It seems common for TVMs to be unable to issue Groupsave tickets.
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I know the S&B TVM's at SWR stations do in fact offer groupsave
 
Starmill

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If there are no staff at the station you can ask, I would advise using a help point wherever possible if you're not able to buy a ticket before boarding for some reason.

You don't need to seek out staff on the train.
 
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