Could an express bus to Manchester Airport be viable?

Ianno87 · 14 Sep 2019

Moderator note: split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/manchester-piccadilly-points-failure-13-09.192041/

Hmmm.... I do wonder if an express bus, properly marketed, doing something like Airport > Airport City > Trafford Centre > Bolton > Wherever might have some legs.

The old 500 Bolton>Airport took 1hr 50 minutes (probably longer nowadays) via Farnworth, Walkden, TC, Stretford, Sale, Altrincham and Wythenshawe was too slow (though fairly popular for 'local' trips)

The 300 (Bolton-Trafford Centre via M60) is only viable with weekend shopping trips (and relies on people getting into Bolton to get it).

Any new service needs to have enough "bread and butter" day to day traffic, but not be too slow end to end.

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Howardh · 14 Sep 2019

Ianno87 said:
Hmmm.... I do wonder if an express bus, properly marketed, doing something like Airport > Airport City > Trafford Centre > Bolton > Wherever might have some legs.

The old 500 Bolton>Airport took 1hr 50 minutes (probably longer nowadays) via Farnworth, Walkden, TC, Stretford, Sale, Altrincham and Wythenshawe was too slow (though fairly popular for 'local' trips)

The 300 (Bolton-Trafford Centre via M60) is only viable with weekend shopping trips (and relies on people getting into Bolton to get it).

Any new service needs to have enough "bread and butter" day to day traffic, but not be too slow end to end.

The 500 going through all those towns made it unusable for an airport service unless you were from those towns close to the airport. If it were just Bolton > airport (maybe calling at the Trafford centre for shoppers and workers - especially earlies) it could be more viable?

Xenophon PCDGS · 15 Sep 2019

Ianno87 said:
Hmmm.... I do wonder if an express bus, properly marketed, doing something like Airport > Airport City > Trafford Centre > Bolton > Wherever might have some legs.

I am sure that those who run bus services and have fleet capacity with enough luggage storage for those flying in and out of Manchester Airport would have already looked at the viability of such a service.

peterblue · 15 Sep 2019

It's already easy getting to Manchester Airport by train, though as there are direct trains from Bolton.

The reason Stockport-Airport works well and is viable is because it's rather cumbersome to get to the Airport from Stockport, having to change at Piccadilly.

I don't think a bolton-airport bus is viable.

darloscott · 15 Sep 2019

I think there will be a market open up, albeit already mostly served by NX, across the Pennines to the likes of Leeds, Bradford, York and possibly further when the works on TPE routes kick in and restrict capacity and journey times are extended. There is already an hourly shuttle coach however so they may not be an opening for someone else.

Alexbus12 · 15 Sep 2019

Ianno87 said:
Hmmm.... I do wonder if an express bus, properly marketed, doing something like Airport > Airport City > Trafford Centre > Bolton > Wherever might have some legs.

The old 500 Bolton>Airport took 1hr 50 minutes (probably longer nowadays) via Farnworth, Walkden, TC, Stretford, Sale, Altrincham and Wythenshawe was too slow (though fairly popular for 'local' trips)

The 300 (Bolton-Trafford Centre via M60) is only viable with weekend shopping trips (and relies on people getting into Bolton to get it).

Any new service needs to have enough "bread and butter" day to day traffic, but not be too slow end to end.

Interesting idea. Though I don't see much demand for it. Whenever anything appears in the Bolton news about buses, a route to the airport is never mentioned.

Starmill · 15 Sep 2019

Presumably any bus service would need to be cheaper than the train too? There are at present hourly direct trains, frequent trains with one change, and a single fare of only £6.70 on any train at any time of day. It would be difficult for a bus company to undercut that level.

Alexbus12 · 15 Sep 2019

Starmill said:
Presumably any bus service would need to be cheaper than the train too? There are at present hourly direct trains, frequent trains with one change, and a single fare of only £6.70 on any train at any time of day. It would be difficult for a bus company to undercut that level.

And on the same or better frequency with late night early morning running. I cant see it being viable

njlawley · 16 Sep 2019

Bear in mind that the routing of the 500 being discussed is not that it originally took. During the 1980s, it took a number of different routes, including running fast via the (as was) M63. The 500 worked in its day, because the Airport had no railway station.

You would get some limited traffic from Bolton, simply because there are people that don't like using the train. You'd have more if the cheap off-peak fares didn't exist. TBH, there would probably be even more traffic if the bus and rail stations weren't next to each other.

South of Bolton, there isn't a lot of potential because of the lack of residential areas. Farnworth would be ok, but you go from town centre to mixed use retail and industrial, then Farnworth, then more industrial (around where the route crosses the M61), then Walkden town centre, then straight into leafy Worsley.

I would have said a route from Wigan would have more chance - not because of Wigan itself as it has a fast train link, but because of points east. Hindley and Atherton have stations but are quite a trek from the town centres (and no direct service), but Leigh would be the logical place to serve. Then again, the easy way to cater for these would be an extension of the 126 and 132 fast via the M60/M56. However, even though I say Wigan/Leigh would have more chance, I still don't think it would be viable.

Xenophon PCDGS · 17 Sep 2019

njlawley said:
I would have said a route from Wigan would have more chance - not because of Wigan itself as it has a fast train link, but because of points east. Hindley and Atherton have stations but are quite a trek from the town centres (and no direct service), but Leigh would be the logical place to serve. Then again, the easy way to cater for these would be an extension of the 126 and 132 fast via the M60/M56. However, even though I say Wigan/Leigh would have more chance, I still don't think it would be viable.

The Vantage V1 " guided busway" service from Leigh bus station stops immediately outside Salford Crescent railway station and does that journey in about half an hour, thanks to the guided busway section from Leigh to Ellenbrook and then the bus lane sections on the East Lancashire Road.

Statto · 17 Sep 2019

Big question is journey time, current services 126 & 132 from Leigh/Wigan to Trafford Centre currently take 50 to 85 minutes in the peaks[35 & 65 minutes off peak], any extension to the Airport would add at least 30 minutes to journey, regulars would get soon tired of the journey time

markymark2000 · 17 Sep 2019

The fastest route I can think of would be for Stagecoach to run a 104. As a 101 to the Britannia Hotel but then run along the motorway to the Airport rather than going round Wythenshawe. That could work with the Princes Road passengers boosting the revenue. 45 minutes end to end.

I think for the best part, Manchester Airports issue is where public transport drops you off in relation to private vehicles. Why would you get off at the transport interchange to then walk 10 minutes to the terminal when you can be dropped off in a car, right outside the terminal door. Also no buses have luggage racks in Manchester so can't accommodate airport passengers. Until recently, most buses don't run at times which suit the airports operational hours.

Manchester Airport is just not as good for bus passengers. Trams you get enough people to fill a class 139. Buses pick up generally 1 or 2 people per trip. NatEx I think only stops half the time because it is kind of en route to Manchester so it's worth the extra few passengers but again, not many people there. The only mode which I consistently see doing well in Manchester Airport is the train.

jonesy3001 · 17 Sep 2019

There used to be the 400 Trans lancs express, that went to the airport from bolton via bury,rochdale,oldham,ashton,denton,stockport and wythenshawe but then GMN started messing about with the service by merging it with the 401 (Wigan - Oldham) between bolton and stockport with the 401 going on it's normal route to oldham via heywood and middleton and then via hyde to stockport but with falling passenger numbers the services didn't last, even stagecoach and bluebird(?) tried with the 400 and with the airport rail link opening in the 90s, that eventually killed of the service and today i don't think they will last with the half nine silver surfers.

5210 C210 FVU TE by Jonesy3001, on Flickr

Statto · 17 Sep 2019

Even then the 400 would take around 2 & a half hours from Bolton to the Airport[took around 1 hour 50 Bolton-Stockport], so not many would do that journey end to end, the Airport extention became summer Sunday only service before GM Buses was split.

Didn't know Stagecoach tried operating the 400, i know it was operated from Oldham depot from SELNEC/GMPTE through GM Buses, even First Manchester, i don't know if Bluebird Middleton operated the 400, but i know Blue Bus Bolton did

jonesy3001 · 17 Sep 2019

Statto said:
Even then the 400 would take around 2 & a half hours from Bolton to the Airport[took around 1 hour 50 Bolton-Stockport], so not many would do that journey end to end, the Airport extention became summer Sunday only service before GM Buses was split.

Didn't know Stagecoach tried operating the 400, i know it was operated from Oldham depot from SELNEC/GMPTE through GM Buses, even First Manchester, i don't know if Bluebird Middleton operated the 400, but i know Blue Bus Bolton did

The 400 was operated by tameside depot before it closed in november 1991 then went to oldham along with 5201-5210 that were used on the service.

njlawley · 17 Sep 2019

Xenophon PCDGS said:
The Vantage V1 " guided busway" service from Leigh bus station stops immediately outside Salford Crescent railway station and does that journey in about half an hour, thanks to the guided busway section from Leigh to Ellenbrook and then the bus lane sections on the East Lancashire Road.

True, but Salford Crescent isn't the easiest station to cart your luggage through, nor the nicest station to change trains at given how crammed the platforms can get.

Statto said:
Big question is journey time, current services 126 & 132 from Leigh/Wigan to Trafford Centre currently take 50 to 85 minutes in the peaks[35 & 65 minutes off peak], any extension to the Airport would add at least 30 minutes to journey, regulars would get soon tired of the journey time

Google says 13 minutes on a clear run in a car, so using schedulers rule of thumb, make it 20 minutes. The problem with peak times isn't so much the motorway, but getting to it through Boothstown and Worsley. I can't see there being many regulars, but those who drive there would know how busy the route is, and how stressful the drive can be. There wouldn't be massive differences in time, probably around 7 or 8 minutes to get in and out of TC, but those who would be regulars may be swayed by not having to stress at the wheel, and not pay ridiculously high car parking prices.

KendalKing · 17 Sep 2019

njlawley said:
True, but Salford Crescent isn't the easiest station to cart your luggage through, nor the nicest station to change trains at given how crammed the platforms can get.

That can be said about all of Manchester Rail Stations, especially Oxford Road and Piccadilly.

peterblue · 17 Sep 2019

If we're talking express buses in Manchester, I reckon there's some demand for an hourly or 2hourly Bryn - Ashton in Makerfield - Golbourne/Lowton - Manchester semi fast service. There's no direct rail link and bus to Manchester has a whole lot more to offer (shopping events and so on) than a bus to e.g. Leigh would. And no offence is meant there!

I know stagecoach do run a few 34's that way in the peak which go via Leigh.

Ianno87 · 17 Sep 2019

Statto said:
Didn't know Stagecoach tried operating the 400, i know it was operated from Oldham depot from SELNEC/GMPTE through GM Buses, even First Manchester, i don't know if Bluebird Middleton operated the 400, but i know Blue Bus Bolton did

I recall First operated the 400 and 401 hourly (half-hourly on common sections) until late 2000 or so.

Then First only carried on the 400 (briefly diverted via the M60 between Ashton and Stockport), and Stagecoach took over the 401 (curtailed to Middleton-Stockport only), but the latter didn't last long.

First carried on with the 400 until May 2003 (with quite an obvious run down of the route with the vehicles used towards the end), then Blue Bus (not Bluebird) gave it a try until final withdrawal in September 2004. They even applied for a Kickstart funding to buy new vehicles and revive the extension to Manchester Airport...to no avail.

I do recall reliability under Blue Bus generally being abysmal, as the schedule was way too tight (1 hr 50 each way) to only use 4 buses (though a fresh one was routinely scrambled from Bolton if an arrival from Stockport was late).

markymark2000 · 18 Sep 2019

peterblue said:
If we're talking express buses in Manchester, I reckon there's some demand for an hourly or 2hourly Bryn - Ashton in Makerfield - Golbourne/Lowton - Manchester semi fast service. There's no direct rail link and bus to Manchester has a whole lot more to offer (shopping events and so on) than a bus to e.g. Leigh would. And no offence is meant there!

I know stagecoach do run a few 34's that way in the peak which go via Leigh.

I think if First still ran Wigan depot or Stagecoach had the busway, the V1 would be extended out to Ashton. It's a case of the Vantage being a contract and Arriva having the 34 commercially. If Stagecoach ran Vantage though (hypothetically speaking), they would just cut back the 34 to only run Leigh to Manchester and Ashton to Manchester via the busway would become the norm.

First on the Busway is a bit awkward as they are out of the way from the rest of their network. If Stagecoach or even Arriva ran the busway, it compliments their existing network doesn't it really so more likely to have through routes to encourage passengers.

daodao · 18 Sep 2019

There used to be special MCT coaches (with luggage capacity) from the BEA terminal in the Royal Exchange (where one could check in for outbound journeys) to Ringway Airport. On the return journey, they would set down at Southern Cemetery, and I recall my father using this service when we lived near Barlow Moor Road. The following weblink shows a picture of 2 of these coaches, one with the destination Zurich.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...ery/way-were-buses-greater-manchester-5383955
(go to photo number 3).

I see no role for such a service now - there are train, tram and bus services to multiple destinations. The only other public transport to Ringway Airport then was MCT bus route 64 via Palatine Road (officially joint with NWRCC, but operated exclusively by MCT) which was limited stop from the city centre to West Didsbury. It ran every 20 minutes, with 2 buses per hour to the Airport and an hourly service to Styal. South of Gatley, the roads that were served now have no buses whatsoever. Most buses to the Airport are now routed via Wythenshawe or the M56 (plus a new extension of route 313 via the A555).

njlawley · 18 Sep 2019

Ianno87 said:
I do recall reliability under Blue Bus generally being abysmal, as the schedule was way too tight (1 hr 50 each way) to only use 4 buses (though a fresh one was routinely scrambled from Bolton if an arrival from Stockport was late).

It could be done if the conditions were right. The problem was, roadworks were more than rife during Blue Bus' tenure. I once counted six major sets of works at one point, which included major resurfacing in Royton (possibly the longest set of single file temporary lights I have ever seen), and the major remodeling of Great Portwood Roundabout in Stockport. Add a home game at Bury FC and there was never a chance of getting anywhere near on time, not helped by the road into Bury from the M66 only having a weekday peak bus lane!

Whisky Papa · 19 Sep 2019

jonesy3001 said:
The 400 was operated by tameside depot before it closed in november 1991 then went to oldham along with 5201-5210 that were used on the service.

In the late 1970's GMT's fleet of Scania Metropolitans was used on the 400, indeed based in Tameside - I'm pretty sure they were at the old Ashton depot before the new combined one was built, but am happy to be told they were at Stalybridge if anyone has a better memory. The summer weekend extension from Stockport to Manchester Airport was covered by Stockport depot, certainly by the early 1980's anyway. ST's working was ST-BN-MIA-BN-ST, commencing I think at 1030 and relieving every time it came through Stockport. Only a limited number of drivers were trained on the route, so it was left as "open" work to be allocated rather than put into the main rota.

I think it is fair to say it was not intended as a serious option for either travellers or workers, but more for those wanting to visit the airport as an attraction. In those days it was still possible to walk along the tops of the piers, and as well as serious planespotters, it was still a novel day out for families, something hard to imagine now.

I'm surprised there has been no mention of the old 200 Airport Express service operated by Northenden depot with Leyland Leopard coaches from the airport to Manchester Victoria railway station, calling at Piccadilly rail station. There were eventually a few (2?) "standard" double-deckers converted to operate this, with luggage racks almost the full length downstairs.

Could an express bus to Manchester Airport be viable?

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