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Lack of free WiFi on London buses?

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edwin_m

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Tha bandwidth required to provide those services is far less than demanded by half a bus load of serial downloaders all demanding that they can download an entire movie during their 15 minute journey. The ticket machine has a link to send GPS data every few minutes/seconds and most drivers that I've seen talking back to base are using a regular mobile. Security CCTV records to on-board storage.
But how much is the extra cost to provide something with more bandwidth compared with a low-capacity link for the GPS and any ticketing data.

I'd have thought retrofitting USB power is harder than retrofitting wifi, because it needs wiring all the way down the bus and multiple sockets (on the seats not just the side wall if aisle seats are to have access). Wifi just needs a router somewhere on board with a power connection.
 
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No one's going to die without wifi, and a reliable bus without wifi will always be better than an unreliable bus with it, but everyone wants an internet connection all the time nowadays, and if you're travelling a long distance (e.g an hour each way on the bus every day) the data plan is going to start getting expensive. It'd be interesting to see a survey of what young people in London think of the bus and how much the lack of the latest modern features matters (or otherwise) to them.
 

jon0844

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As of yesterday, every primary UK network has an unlimited data plan, with pricing starting at £20/m (even less at times when there's a promo; Three has had unlimited calls, texts and data for as little as £13.50 a month) so I only use - as I think was mentioned by someone else - Wi-Fi when there's no phone coverage.

That makes the Underground somewhere I use Wi-Fi and very few other places.

USB power is fine if it's fast. Most of the time it's going to be a pretty slow USB-A output and the top up on an average journey will be minimal.

I'm looking forward to seeing the first USB-C with Power Delivery support on public transport (or more likely both A and C). Maybe it has happened somewhere?
 

Goldfish62

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As of yesterday, every primary UK network has an unlimited data plan, with pricing starting at £20/m (even less at times when there's a promo; Three has had unlimited calls, texts and data for as little as £13.50 a month) so I only use - as I think was mentioned by someone else - Wi-Fi when there's no phone coverage.

That makes the Underground somewhere I use Wi-Fi and very few other places.

USB power is fine if it's fast. Most of the time it's going to be a pretty slow USB-A output and the top up on an average journey will be minimal.

I'm looking forward to seeing the first USB-C with Power Delivery support on public transport (or more likely both A and C). Maybe it has happened somewhere?
Agreed re data use, although there are still a lot of people who use PAYG.

We musnt also forget that there are still many areas of the UK with poor or no network signal and WiFi is certainly of benefit in these areas, assuming of course that at least one network has a semblance of a signal to be picked up by the bus.
 

jon0844

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Agreed re data use, although there are still a lot of people who use PAYG.

We musnt also forget that there are still many areas of the UK with poor or no network signal and WiFi is certainly of benefit in these areas, assuming of course that at least one network has a semblance of a signal to be picked up by the bus.

There are some good bundles available to PAYG users, or a simple 1p per MB rate. I am certain that people who need a lot of data sort out a suitable package. Those who have lesser needs can manage with less data as they're likely using IM services, some social media and not anything data intensive like backing up photos in real-time, streaming, file transfers etc. App stores by default won't download large apps/data and updates over mobile data unless you give permission, and so on.

Although networks are increasingly going their own way, EE and Three still have a significant number of shared sites. And O2/Vodafone have their own alliance. If you have a dual SIM phone, you can pretty much be assured coverage by having, say, an EE SIM and Vodafone SIM. Make sure the phone supports VoLTE and all the relevant bands, and you should be fine.

Icomera systems may support multiple SIMs (GTR for example use EE and Vodafone) but I doubt the bus operators would pay for that. They'll pick one network, so besides an external antenna, you're not necessarily going to be any better off.
 

radamfi

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If you are really tight you can use a Data Reward SIM from Three. They give 200 MB of data completely free every month with no obligation to top-up. I have twelve of them so I effectively have 2.4 GB free data a month. They are best used in a dual SIM phone so you can use separate SIMs for calls/texts and the Data Reward SIM for data.
 

jellybaby

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As of yesterday, every primary UK network has an unlimited data plan, with pricing starting at £20/m

That's a consumer tariff, almost certainly with some kind of fair usage policy, not available to a business buying dozens/hundreds of connections. The networks are betting on the average customer not using much data
 

AM9

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But how much is the extra cost to provide something with more bandwidth compared with a low-capacity link for the GPS and any ticketing data.

I'd have thought retrofitting USB power is harder than retrofitting wifi, because it needs wiring all the way down the bus and multiple sockets (on the seats not just the side wall if aisle seats are to have access). Wifi just needs a router somewhere on board with a power connection.
The difference in cost could be quite large. As I intimated, the ticket machine would send very little data back to base, e.g., regular updates of position, any alarms or failure codes of the bus systems, and maybe a status update on ticket sales. Such levels of data can easily be met with a regular GPRS 2g or 2.5g, which would be low cost, yet wouldn't support any viable passenger wi-fi service.
 

AM9

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Agreed re data use, although there are still a lot of people who use PAYG.

We musnt also forget that there are still many areas of the UK with poor or no network signal and WiFi is certainly of benefit in these areas, assuming of course that at least one network has a semblance of a signal to be picked up by the bus.
So you expect barely viable bus companies to subsidise passengers' data requirements in poor network coverage areas?
 

Goldfish62

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So you expect barely viable bus companies to subsidise passengers' data requirements in poor network coverage areas?
That's a very strange comment indeed. I was merely pointing out the benefits of WiFi in some areas. I assume you are a metropolitan type who has no idea that some "barely viable" bus companies do indeed provide WiFi in poor network coverage areas.
 

jon0844

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That's a consumer tariff, almost certainly with some kind of fair usage policy, not available to a business buying dozens/hundreds of connections. The networks are betting on the average customer not using much data

EE has offered unlimited plans to businesses on bespoke plans for some time. Before that, it had plans in the terabytes. I assume the others do, that have departments for business customers (as against simple business plans that are more or less consumer plans with the VAT knocked off the price lists).

I am not sure why that's an issue though? My point is that all networks now offer consumers unlimited data, and as such they are less likely to need Wi-Fi to protect their data allowance.

I am not sure the needs of big business is a big consideration when using buses.

I do not know what sort of plans the rail operators have for providing Wi-Fi to end users on trains, and assume they have negotiated rates too.
 

jellybaby

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EE has offered unlimited plans to businesses on bespoke plans for some time.
Of course, you can buy anything*. What you can't do is put a bus fleet worth of consumer tariff SIMs in a router, rather than a handset, and not expect the network to spot your unusual data usage and cut you off.

My point is that all networks now offer consumers unlimited data, and as such they are less likely to need Wi-Fi to protect their data allowance.
Sorry, I thought you were suggesting you could use that tariff in a bus router. Someone else has suggested bus WiFi in London would be useful for people like tourists from who don't have mobile data available at a reasonable cost.
 

AM9

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That's a very strange comment indeed. I was merely pointing out the benefits of WiFi in some areas. I assume you are a metropolitan type who has no idea that some "barely viable" bus companies do indeed provide WiFi in poor network coverage areas.
I am not sure what you mean by a 'metropolitan type', and no, I have not lived in a metropolitan area since at least 20 years before the WWW was created. Here in St Albans, where there are some poor 4g areas, afaik the only bus routes with wi-fi are the S4/5 local bus and the Arriva 321 trunk route. I wouldn't have the need to use the S4/5 but have benn on the 321s many times. Wi-fi is cumbersome and not worth the trouble for even a 30 minute journey.
On the general point that I was making, there seemsto be a view on this thread that bus providers should be almost bound to provide full Wi-fi on all services. It would be a distraction to them providing a sound bus service and there is no point in expecting them to provide a Wi-fi, especially when so many operators seem to operate on a shoestring. Those who need a continuous internet connection should get it through their phone plan, and not expect every supplier that they use to provide it at the cost of others.
 

Goldfish62

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I am not sure what you mean by a 'metropolitan type', and no, I have not lived in a metropolitan area since at least 20 years before the WWW was created. Here in St Albans, where there are some poor 4g areas, afaik the only bus routes with wi-fi are the S4/5 local bus and the Arriva 321 trunk route. I wouldn't have the need to use the S4/5 but have benn on the 321s many times. Wi-fi is cumbersome and not worth the trouble for even a 30 minute journey.
On the general point that I was making, there seemsto be a view on this thread that bus providers should be almost bound to provide full Wi-fi on all services. It would be a distraction to them providing a sound bus service and there is no point in expecting them to provide a Wi-fi, especially when so many operators seem to operate on a shoestring. Those who need a continuous internet connection should get it through their phone plan, and not expect every supplier that they use to provide it at the cost of others.
Thanks, I understand now. No, I certainly wasn't saying that all operators must provide WiFi. I was just pointing out that many do in areas where phone signals are poor. For example, all of First Kernow's new purchases in the last three years, making up 50% of their whole fleet, have WiFi. Once registered it's easy to re-connect and can be very useful considering the highly variable nature of mobile signals in Cornwall.

Bus usage is growing healthily in Cornwall, but obviously I have no idea whether WiFi has any bearing whatsoever on this.
 

jon0844

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The gain on a bus roof mounted antenna is not likely to be that significant, given a bus has plenty of windows. If there's poor signal outside then it's likely going to be poor for the bus Wi-Fi too.

I don't think buses have multiple SIMs. If they've chosen a network with better coverage in a particular area over yours, that might help, but I'd expect bus companies negotiate a rate and get multiple SIMs from a single network and don't look at coverage maps.

In rural areas, the bigger problem will be if you drop to 3G. Irrespective of the coverage level, most networks have refarmed most of the spectrum to 4G and so there's very little bandwidth to go around. And something called cell breathing can destroy coverage one day over another, because of demand (which has increased due to less spectrum).

Some handsets can hand back to 4G from 3G quite quickly. EE configures its network to facilitate this even when data is flowing. On some networks (and equipment) once you fall to 3G it stays there until there's a period of inactivity (which there won't be if lots of users are trying to access data). If the bus system can't revert to 4G (assuming it even supports 4G) then it will be stuck on 3G and you'll often have no data flowing at all.

4G and 5G will eliminate most of these issues, massively boosting rural coverage in the process, which sort of makes Wi-Fi even less necessary!
 

jellybaby

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The gain on a bus roof mounted antenna is not likely to be that significant, given a bus has plenty of windows.
Trains have lots of windows but apparently the signal on Pendolinos is awful, I read about it on some Internet forum.
 

jon0844

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Trains have lots of windows but apparently the signal on Pendolinos is awful, I read about it on some Internet forum.

Trains are a totally different kettle (metal) of fish to a bus. Smaller windows, travelling more in rural areas and cuttings, travelling faster, and so on.

Buses aren't like trains!!
 

jon0844

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Aren't Pendolinos given a solar reflecting film that causes the main cellular reception issues? Likewise Voyagers and other trains of the era?

I don't know how they do things now but new trains presumably don't block signals as they did.
 

AM9

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Aren't Pendolinos given a solar reflecting film that causes the main cellular reception issues? Likewise Voyagers and other trains of the era?

I don't know how they do things now but new trains presumably don't block signals as they did.
I've noticed the almost complete lack of signal in Voyagers/Meridian, but not on Pendolinos.
 

radamfi

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Pendolinos used to have signs under the window about mobile signals being boosted but not now.
 

jon0844

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Pendolinos used to have signs under the window about mobile signals being boosted but not now.

I wonder if they just boosted certain frequencies? They're very expensive, need to be licenced I think, and if they only worked on certain bands may be useless for the 4G (and 5G) frequencies used like 800MHz, 2600MHz, 3600MHz etc.
 
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