Island Line Railway - current state and the future

DelW · 17 Sep 2019

hwl said:
Why would 2 units need 2 guards? They don't on the rest of SWR...

Bletchleyite said:
Because fare collection is mostly onboard, so if there aren't two then half the fares won't get collected.

Doesn't all the rest of SWR's fleet have corridor connections? Which the 484s apparently won't.

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centraltrains · 17 Sep 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Because fare collection is mostly onboard, so if there aren't two then half the fares won't get collected.

Part of the announcement was new TVMs at the stations... Penalty Fare Island anyone?

hwl · 17 Sep 2019

DelW said:
Doesn't all the rest of SWR's fleet have corridor connections? Which the 484s apparently won't.

455+455+456 combinations only have one guard. Not being able to walk through isn't a requirement for another guard.

jon0844 · 17 Sep 2019

centraltrains said:
Penalty Fare Island anyone?

I'm picturing this as something like Jurassic Park.

DarloRich · 17 Sep 2019

Good news that new trains are coming to the island line. The passenger facilities will be improved massively as will comfort. I hope the trains are more reliable than the 230's we have on the Marston Vale.......................................................

DelW · 17 Sep 2019

hwl said:
455+455+456 combinations only have one guard. Not being able to walk through isn't a requirement for another guard.

Good point. I'd also forgotten the 707s :oops:

pompeyfan · 17 Sep 2019

DelW said:
Good point. I'd also forgotten the 707s

.....But they’re not pay trains.

AlbertBeale · 17 Sep 2019

The Ham said:
On the flooding issue, of there's been any recent developments nearby or upstream then they will have been limited in the amount of water they can discharge and so that will reduce the risk of flooding.

Such rules are imposed UK wide, and so actually new developments (contrary to popular belief) will actually reduce flooding risk compared to green fields.

The reason for this is that the discharge rate will be limited to greenfield runoff (i.e. the amount of water which would have been discharged had it just been fields) but to ensure that this is the case for 1:100 year storms this means that under other conditions the discharge rate is lower. That's before you consider the 20-40% of extra storage which is required to be provided to accommodate for climate change, which reduces the discharge rate further.

It also means that during a wet winter when the ground would have likely been waterlogged and would have acted like concrete, due to not being able to absorb any more water, the discharge rates will be much lower.

It's not to do with the water discharged by the development, ie the water piped into the development which then goes out again as waste; surely it's the fact that any built-on surface covers part of the area which would absorb rainfall, so run-off into drainage (natural and otherwise) is speeded up by development. Are you saying that drains - where anything at all is built - are now always designed to cope with the water usage by what's built and the amount of rain that would have fallen on that area of land? I thought that might be the case with buildings, but not with areas that are concreted over for other purposes.

And even where it slows egress into natural drainage, it will speed up drainage into the system the built drains are attached to, which might create problems "downstream"

Also, I don't understand the "20-40% of extra storage" - what storage? New buildings don't all store their discharges, even as a buffer before passing it into the sewage system.

Bletchleyite · 17 Sep 2019

You don't concrete over areas in the way you used to - more common is to use porous surfacing of some kind, so the water soaks in as it did before.

Chris125 · 17 Sep 2019

centraltrains said:
Part of the announcement was new TVMs at the stations... Penalty Fare Island anyone?

Only at Sandown, Shanklin and Ryde St Johns IIRC but more people travelling with a ticket should make life easier for the guards.

ElectroSoldier · 17 Sep 2019

hooverboy said:
I believe there are rail ferries that cold do the job, pretty sure they had something like that at weymouth. just push on/pull off with a shunter.

We dont hve anything like that on the island.
I would imagine they will come over on the 5am ferry or they can book a special cargo ferry to land in Cowes maybe then transport it over land to maybe smallbrook Jn to get them onto the track

Its not uncommon to have heavy plant transported either by the car ferry or on their own vessels.

Rick1984 · 17 Sep 2019

Lake you can understand not bothering with ticket machines but Brading you think would make sense

Chris125 · 17 Sep 2019

Rick1984 said:
Lake you can understand not bothering with ticket machines but Brading you think would make sense

Really? They have very similar passenger numbers, just under 50,000.

E759 · 17 Sep 2019

ElectroSoldier said:
We dont hve anything like that on the island.
I would imagine they will come over on the 5am ferry or they can book a special cargo ferry to land in Cowes maybe then transport it over land to maybe smallbrook Jn to get them onto the track

Its not uncommon to have heavy plant transported either by the car ferry or on their own vessels.

There is no road access at Smallbrook Junction. [There is also no pedestrian access.]

There is also no rail-link between the Island Line and the Isle of Wight Steam Railway at Smallbrook Junction.

341o2 · 17 Sep 2019

DarloRich said:
Good news that new trains are coming to the island line. The passenger facilities will be improved massively as will comfort. I hope the trains are more reliable than the 230's we have on the Marston Vale.......................................................

Was announced on Classic FM this morning and now on Island news

https://onthewight.com/new-trains-coming-to-the-isle-of-wight/

Five new trains
Today it’s been announced that the company Vivarail has been selected to build five new trains to run on the Isle of Wight.

The first two-car train is expected to arrive on test in early summer 2020, with track improvement works due to take place over the winter of that year.

The proposals were developed in partnership with key stakeholders on the Island, including Isle of Wight Council and Solent Local Enterprise Partnership. They have agreed to jointly contribute £1 million to fund a new passing loop at Brading, helping to deliver an even interval half-hourly service to the pier.

The 483's have served the island well, but are now overdue for retirement. Even 2 1/2 years ago, when I last visited the line. I like the bit in the article which points out that when these units were new, they were in the era of the first edition of the Beano, and Mallard's record breaking run

Rick1984 · 17 Sep 2019

Chris125 said:
Really? They have very similar passenger numbers, just under 50,000.

Oh for some reason I thought Brading would be higher

E759 · 17 Sep 2019

I do hope a Farewell to the Class 483 Railtour is planned. I have fond memories of the 4VEC and 3TIS in the '70s but never saw the changeover.

Meerkat · 17 Sep 2019

I assume truck to rail is done at Sandown? St Johns depot looks too cramped

Camden · 17 Sep 2019

£26m investment for 1.5m annual passengers a year is a cost of 58p per passenger over 30 years, which doesn't sound over-spendy to me!!!

I'm surprised, though, that no one has talked about any urgent desire to rip out its third rail, though...

Bletchleyite · 17 Sep 2019

E759 said:
I do hope a Farewell to the Class 483 Railtour is planned. I have fond memories of the 4VEC and 3TIS in the '70s but never saw the changeover.

I suppose you might get the odd bit of depot line in, but most of what you'd get in a railtour you can do any day...how many times would you like to go up and down

Meerkat · 17 Sep 2019

Camden said:
£26m investment for 1.5m annual passengers a year is a cost of 58p per passenger over 30 years, which doesn't sound over-spendy to me!!!

I'm surprised, though, that no one has talked about any urgent desire to rip out its third rail, though...

It’s a lot when it doesn’t anywhere near cover it’s operating costs and these upgrades presumably increase running costs

Waldgrun · 17 Sep 2019

Meerkat said:
I assume truck to rail is done at Sandown? St Johns depot looks too cramped

You are correct, when the 38 Stock class 483 was transferred to the Island, the re railing was done at Sandown.

DynamicSpirit · 17 Sep 2019

Meerkat said:
It’s a lot when it doesn’t anywhere near cover it’s operating costs and these upgrades presumably increase running costs

Why would the upgrades increase running costs? You have newer trains that you'd expect will immensely reduce maintenance costs. Likely to be a bit more fuel-efficient. Costs to man the trains will stay the same. Where's the increase in running costs going to come from?

(Separately from that, since the new trains are larger, likely to be more comfortable, will run a more regular timetable, and will make it easier for guards to collect fares, you'd expect revenues to go up, so the line will presumably become much less loss-making)

E759 · 17 Sep 2019

Bletchleyite said:
I suppose you might get the odd bit of depot line in, but most of what you'd get in a railtour you can do any day...how many times would you like to go up and down

Really that's up to the organisers but as you've asked :rolleyes:

Ryde Pier Head (RYP) to Shanklin (SHN) non-stop
SHN to Smallbrook Junction (SAB) calling all stations - unit ECS to depot
Smallbrook Junction IoWSR to Wootton non-stop (Calbourne & Freshwater - not sure if they can top-n-tail?)
Wootton to Havenstreet
Train Story & carriage restoration
Havenstreet to Ashey for 10 minute photo stop
Ashey to Smallbrook Junction IoWSR
483 arrives SAB from depot
SAB to RYP calling all stations
RYP to SHN calling all stations except SAB
SHN to RYP non-stop

Fawkes Cat · 17 Sep 2019

E759 said:
Really that's up to the organisers but as you've asked

Ryde Pier Head (RYP) to Shanklin (SHN) non-stop
SHN to Smallbrook Junction (SAB) calling all stations - unit ECS to depot
Smallbrook Junction IoWSR to Wootton non-stop (Calbourne & Freshwater - not sure if they can top-n-tail?)
Wootton to Havenstreet
Train Story & carriage restoration
Havenstreet to Ashey for 10 minute photo stop
Ashey to Smallbrook Junction IoWSR
483 arrives SAB from depot
SAB to RYP calling all stations
RYP to SHN calling all stations except SAB
SHN to RYP non-stop

And maybe start/end with a preserved train charter on the mainland to/from London? And does anyone do preserved ferries???

E759 · 17 Sep 2019

Fawkes Cat said:
And maybe start/end with a preserved train charter on the mainland to/from London? And does anyone do preserved ferries???

Clan Line from Waterloo then PS Waverley to the Island!

MotorcycleAlan · 17 Sep 2019

I think you'll find P.S. Waverley is out of action until further notice.

Meerkat · 17 Sep 2019

DynamicSpirit said:
Why would the upgrades increase running costs? You have newer trains that you'd expect will immensely reduce maintenance costs. Likely to be a bit more fuel-efficient. Costs to man the trains will stay the same. Where's the increase in running costs going to come from?

(Separately from that, since the new trains are larger, likely to be more comfortable, will run a more regular timetable, and will make it easier for guards to collect fares, you'd expect revenues to go up, so the line will presumably become much less loss-making)

You would hope the old trains leasing costs were minimal, whereas Vivarail won’t be.
The new trains have more to go wrong, and it’s more sophisticated stuff to fix. There is also the Wi-fi to provide and the TVMs to maintain

But, as you say, hopefully the revenue will rise significantly

hooverboy · 17 Sep 2019

Meerkat said:
You would hope the old trains leasing costs were minimal, whereas Vivarail won’t be.
The new trains have more to go wrong, and it’s more sophisticated stuff to fix. There is also the Wi-fi to provide and the TVMs to maintain

But, as you say, hopefully the revenue will rise significantly

i very much doubt these trains are being leased.

I'd reckon that it's a direct purchase with a spares/parts support contract.(with refit costs the 5 sets are still likely to come in around £2-3m though)

as for being more sophisticated, the D78's aren't really, unless you start fiddling round with control gear(which is why I think original traction package will be retained in these..a periodic motor brush change is going to be considerably cheaper than fitting new AC motors + variable frequency drives+ electronics suite to go with it)
That's part of the reason they were so reliable on subsurface LU routes.like the 38 stock the drive system is incredibly basic, and all passive components means extremely robust-which is exactly what it needs when operating in damp,salty environments.

they will be doing about 150 miles a day!, that's way,way less than they would have been running on a london service.

swt_passenger · 17 Sep 2019

Meerkat said:
You would hope the old trains leasing costs were minimal...

The old fleet was owned by SWT, IIRC they paid a token £1 for it in 2007 to take it off the ROSCO’s hands.

Island Line Railway - current state and the future

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