Island Line Railway - current state and the future

Camden · 17 Sep 2019

Meerkat said:
It’s a lot when it doesn’t anywhere near cover it’s operating costs and these upgrades presumably increase running costs

As the equipment is newer and it's replacing very old, I would expect a reduction in running costs.

As for covering operating costs, I couldn't say. 1.5m ticket sales a year for a small stretch of track, a few trains and staff doesn't suggest to be something terrifically unviable.

More to the point, do we run things and invest in things only if they ever "cover their costs"? Or should it not be recognised in societal terms that some things are worth paying for? Luxembourg has today announced that public transport will soon be free at the point of use.

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swt_passenger · 17 Sep 2019

hooverboy said:
...as for being more sophisticated, the D78's aren't really, unless you start fiddling round with control gear(which is why I think original traction package will be retained in these..a periodic motor brush change is going to be considerably cheaper than fitting new AC motors + variable frequency drives+ electronics suite to go with it)

Adrian Shooter said in his interview yesterday that they’d get new “electrical and mechanical” equipment.

hooverboy · 17 Sep 2019

swt_passenger said:
The old fleet was owned by SWT, IIRC they paid a token £1 for it in 2007 to take it off the ROSCO’s hands.

I don't see vivarail flogging them for a quid,I'd expect they'd get reasonable compensation for the time and effort of making the necessary mod's and improvements.
...but I reckon the deal would be a fairly good one as the uptake of the stock is not as high as originally estimated.Mr shooter would be angling to get a few off the books and make some kind of return on his investment.

hooverboy · 17 Sep 2019

swt_passenger said:
Adrian Shooter said in his interview yesterday that they’d get new “electrical and mechanical” equipment.

read into that what you will. that's up to SWR and vivarail. post sales pitch and marketing-speak, we'll have to wait and see.

new electrical equipment need only be replacement of filament and fluorescent lighting for LED lighting if that's what they have decided(i would hope aircon has been agreed!)
mechanical gear might mean uprated brakes and WSP.

hooverboy · 17 Sep 2019

Camden said:
As the equipment is newer and it's replacing very old, I would expect a reduction in running costs.

As for covering operating costs, I couldn't say. 1.5m ticket sales a year for a small stretch of track, a few trains and staff doesn't suggest to be something terrifically unviable.

More to the point, do we run things and invest in things only if they ever "cover their costs"? Or should it not be recognised in societal terms that some things are worth paying for? Luxembourg has today announced that public transport will soon be free at the point of use.

i don't think that statement is entirly accurate, a lot of branch lines are run at a very considerable loss,precisely because they serve a function in connecting communities.
I would say minimising running costs is most definitely on the agenda for these lines though...but the full-fat automated version would not sit at all well with rail employees or the unions- i'm not talking DLR style automation either, I am talking toulouse metro style, which would be equally viable on island line.

half a dozen less sets of drivers+ guards is £600k p.a less in costs.

you should count yourselves lucky that this option wasn't finalised(probably because of initial outlay to re-do signalling ,uproot rail for dedicated track, re-fencing of rural sections to stop wildlife incroachment etc,and bottom contact rail).. short termism won the day

ChiefPlanner · 17 Sep 2019

hooverboy said:
read into that what you will. that's up to SWR and vivarail. post sales pitch and marketing-speak, we'll have to wait and see.

new electrical equipment need only be replacement of filament and fluorescent lighting for LED lighting if that's what they have decided(i would hope aircon has been agreed!)
mechanical gear might mean uprated brakes and WSP.

Presumably proper sanding equipment as well , and standard 2-tone horns to replace the LT whistle !

hooverboy · 17 Sep 2019

ChiefPlanner said:
Presumably proper sanding equipment as well , and standard 2-tone horns to replace the LT whistle !

depends, if it is now mandated by H+S/DfT that such features should be applied,then it must be so.

for what it's worth, I think the PIS/Audible/Visual safety equipment will be installed in any case.Derogation or not, nobody really wants to feel like they are travelling on a cut "n" shut, so it would probably be a pretty big PR fail if the units were seen to be substandard.

the papers would have a field day,which would give a lot of negative publicity (and probably reduced patronage).
The marketing bit wants to say "come and ride on our lovely new trains!!!..see how comfortable and punctual they are..and bring your family/friends too next time!"

not saying it's a deal-breaker(it isn't really in car purchase terms), but it's a security blanket , people feel safer having it and not needing it, than needing it and not having it.
the real deal breakers are capacity and reliability(then comfort)

krus_aragon · 17 Sep 2019

swt_passenger said:
Adrian Shooter said in his interview yesterday that they’d get new “electrical and mechanical” equipment.

On the low end, that could be as little as a lightbulb and a doorknob! :lol:

hooverboy · 17 Sep 2019

krus_aragon said:
On the low end, that could be as little as a lightbulb and a doorknob!

precisely. a good deal of the present blurb is back-slapping marketing.
It's got it's place for drumming up optimism and sales.

these things are alright, the fit out is fairly good,acceptable enough for a low use branch line,certainly OK interior wise on marston vale(just the engine ain't up to much, which wont be an issue on IoW being DC driven),....

but it's not in stadler league...GA passengers hit the jackpot there! going from 153 to 755 is an insane upgrade, really does have the "wow!" factor!

I think as long as they don't play with the electrics too much you'll have a good,solid,reliable set of trains there-as they were for many years on london underground, just with a couple of extra bells and whistles.

centraltrains · 17 Sep 2019

Bletchleyite said:
I suppose you might get the odd bit of depot line in, but most of what you'd get in a railtour you can do any day...how many times would you like to go up and down

As an additional service in-between the 40 of the current 20-40 timetable! (Assuming it's before the other loops are taken out if they are being taken out)

Rick1984 · 17 Sep 2019

The 483 still have they're kettle whistles so you never know

hwl · 17 Sep 2019

centraltrains said:
As an additional service in-between the 40 of the current 20-40 timetable! (Assuming it's before the other loops are taken out if they are being taken out)

Taking out the existing loops would eliminate service recovery options if there was delay...

ChiefPlanner · 17 Sep 2019

Rick1984 said:
The 483 still have they're kettle whistles so you never know

Very trivial point , but thanks for confirming.

Years ago , had an (unofficial) cab ride with an old boy on the eclectic mix of 1920's stock they had then , and he mentioned that the crews got an additional uniform issue of thermal trousers , as the first train standing at the Pier Head in winter for the first connection from Portsmouth was exceedingly cold , and the traction motors were of course behind the cab in a compartment. If true - a good story.

The whole 1967 electrification (fleet wise) - I understand , was the brain child (largely) , of one Alan Barter - a genius of the M+EE department and hugely respected as both a visionary and a highly practical railwayman and engineer. A stalwart on the South Eastern division later on in his career. Died not so long ago. His adress to a group of (young) management trainees on how he ran the SE Division (fleet wise) - is an unforgettable memory.

We of course need to recall the superb help from LUL over the years , from the 1960's to the present day - and into the future. Without them - the railway would not be there.

Bletchleyite · 17 Sep 2019

centraltrains said:
As an additional service in-between the 40 of the current 20-40 timetable! (Assuming it's before the other loops are taken out if they are being taken out)

Given that there's only one working unit that might be fun unless the other two are D78s...

Birdbrain · 17 Sep 2019

I can’t believe that corridor connections haven’t been identified as an issue with the new proposals. As a regular user, it is easy to see that the usage figures are low because so many fares are not collected. The guard is stuck in one carriage between stops which makes it so difficult. I think in any new trains it should be made possible for guards to collect fares in all four carriages when two units operate together. Or provide a TVM at all stations.

Bletchleyite · 17 Sep 2019

Birdbrain said:
I can’t believe that corridor connections haven’t been identified as an issue with the new proposals. As a regular user, it is easy to see that the usage figures are low because so many fares are not collected. The guard is stuck in one carriage between stops which makes it so difficult. I think in any new trains it should be made possible for guards to collect fares in all four carriages when two units operate together. Or provide a TVM at all stations.

This is the reason why I'd suggest ordering 3-car units (but with no doubling up) would have been a better idea. The centre coach could always have been shunted out for winter, like Regional Railways used to do with the Conwy Valley 101s.

Meerkat · 17 Sep 2019

hooverboy said:
new electrical equipment need only be replacement of filament and fluorescent lighting for LED lighting if that's what they have decided(i would hope aircon has been agreed!)
mechanical gear might mean uprated brakes and WSP

Pretty sure Shooter said ALL electrical and mechanical will be replaced

swt_passenger · 17 Sep 2019

Meerkat said:
Pretty sure Shooter said ALL electrical and mechanical will be replaced

So am I, but I didn’t go back and find the video again.

pompeyfan · 17 Sep 2019

Bletchleyite said:
This is the reason why I'd suggest ordering 3-car units (but with no doubling up) would have been a better idea. The centre coach could always have been shunted out for winter, like Regional Railways used to do with the Conwy Valley 101s.

I completely agree with what you’re saying, sadly appears common sense did not prevail.

Carlisle · 17 Sep 2019

Bletchleyite said:
This is the reason why I'd suggest ordering 3-car units (but with no doubling up) would have been a better idea. The centre coach could always have been shunted out for winter, like Regional Railways used to do with the Conwy Valley 101s.

splitting & re coupling a 101 probably took around half an hour whereas modern units are bolted together & contain associated electronics that wont work correctly in an altered formation without a hec of a lot of re programming, unless they’ve been designed with that in mind from the outset

transmanche · 17 Sep 2019

swt_passenger said:
The old fleet was owned by SWT, IIRC they paid a token £1 for it in 2007 to take it off the ROSCO’s hands.

I think the ROSCO (HSBC Rail) was embarrassed into selling the fleet for a nominal sum when it became known that they were charging an outrageous £150,000 per year in leasing fees!

The Ham · 17 Sep 2019

AlbertBeale said:
It's not to do with the water discharged by the development, ie the water piped into the development which then goes out again as waste; surely it's the fact that any built-on surface covers part of the area which would absorb rainfall, so run-off into drainage (natural and otherwise) is speeded up by development. Are you saying that drains - where anything at all is built - are now always designed to cope with the water usage by what's built and the amount of rain that would have fallen on that area of land? I thought that might be the case with buildings, but not with areas that are concreted over for other purposes.

And even where it slows egress into natural drainage, it will speed up drainage into the system the built drains are attached to, which might create problems "downstream"

Also, I don't understand the "20-40% of extra storage" - what storage? New buildings don't all store their discharges, even as a buffer before passing it into the sewage system.

There's two types of sewers foul water and surface water, full water is that which is generated within the developments (i.e. from washing hands) whilst surface water is water which falls on the surface of the water (i.e. comes from rainfall). Both are discharged from the development area.

It's the latter (surface water) which is held back, so stored in tanks or in ponds/lakes, and discharged at a slower rate than would be the case if it was just drained conventionally. Especially, as you point out, that concrete and other paved surfaces don't absorb water.

However within the drainage design the amount of water which would have been absorbed into the ground is part of the calculation to determine the maximum flow rate of the surface water away from the site.

Now obviously this means that as there's still the same amount of water that the flow will continental for much longer, but that's of little concern as flooding is due to peak flow overloading the system.

A lot of the storage of surface water will be accommodated within the pipes and manholes of the system.

The video below shows some of the features which developments can install to limit the impact of rainfall storms by allowing down and storing water on site before discharging at a slow rate:

Peter Mugridge · 18 Sep 2019

Rick1984 said:
...tunnel could that section be singled to move the track accordingly?

Probably not, even if if it was necessary, as these Google images results show...

Chris125 · 18 Sep 2019

ChiefPlanner said:
Presumably proper sanding equipment as well , and standard 2-tone horns to replace the LT whistle !

Rarely mentioned this, but both the Standard Stock and 483s had their LT whistles replaced with the design once carried by 3rd rail EMUs - indeed some were apparently recovered from Class 71s, presumably when converted to 74s?

hwl · 18 Sep 2019

hooverboy said:
read into that what you will. that's up to SWR and vivarail. post sales pitch and marketing-speak, we'll have to wait and see.

new electrical equipment need only be replacement of filament and fluorescent lighting for LED lighting if that's what they have decided(i would hope aircon has been agreed!)
mechanical gear might mean uprated brakes and WSP.

New electrical and mechanical includes new 3 phase traction motors and variable speed drives as it improves performance and reliability and reduces maintenance requirements (see SWR 455s as a case study) e.g no carbon brushes or camshaft controllers to replace or repair.

hwl · 18 Sep 2019

Peter Mugridge said:
Probably not, even if if it was necessary, as these Google images results show...

View attachment 68589

The middle top row picture shows the new steel beams under the roundabout nicely and how they are above the brick arch height (and the new concrete sills for the higher up beams)

AlbertBeale · 18 Sep 2019

The Ham said:
There's two types of sewers foul water and surface water, full water is that which is generated within the developments (i.e. from washing hands) whilst surface water is water which falls on the surface of the water (i.e. comes from rainfall). Both are discharged from the development area.

It's the latter (surface water) which is held back, so stored in tanks or in ponds/lakes, and discharged at a slower rate than would be the case if it was just drained conventionally. Especially, as you point out, that concrete and other paved surfaces don't absorb water.

However within the drainage design the amount of water which would have been absorbed into the ground is part of the calculation to determine the maximum flow rate of the surface water away from the site.

Now obviously this means that as there's still the same amount of water that the flow will continental for much longer, but that's of little concern as flooding is due to peak flow overloading the system.

A lot of the storage of surface water will be accommodated within the pipes and manholes of the system.

The video below shows some of the features which developments can install to limit the impact of rainfall storms by allowing down and storing water on site before discharging at a slow rate:

Thanks for this. Presumably any sustainable storage needs to hold back - to let the peak flow pass - not just whatever would have been absorbed by the surface that's now built on, but also enough to compensate for the usage from the development itself as well. But can such storage really hold many days of heavy rain from all the built-on area? Perhaps larger-scale developments, with associated added lakes, major underground storage, etc - if they really all do that now as a matter of course?? - might do. But the sum of very many much smaller losses of natural surface must all add up as well, and these aren't compensated for. I'm thinking of garden after garden being concreted over for car parking in some areas I know, for instance. The cumulative effect is massive in a major urban area.

Chris125 · 18 Sep 2019

hwl said:
The middle top row picture shows the new steel beams under the roundabout nicely and how they are above the brick arch height (and the new concrete sills for the higher up beams)

I'm not convinced that made any practical difference to the headroom tbh - back in 1984 they managed to squeeze 03079 through Ryde Tunnel both ways with it's original 12ft 2in cab, it was the Up Line under Rink Road that proved too much.

Xenophon PCDGS · 18 Sep 2019

hooverboy said:
I don't see vivarail flogging them for a quid,I'd expect they'd get reasonable compensation for the time and effort of making the necessary mod's and improvements....but I reckon the deal would be a fairly good one as the uptake of the stock is not as high as originally estimated.Mr shooter would be angling to get a few off the books and make some kind of return on his investment.

Noting the final part of your posting above, is it not the case that Vivarail are a totally financially owned project of Railroad Development Corporation of Pittsburgh and Adrian Shooter, because of his record in the railway industry, was appointed by them as a British-based managing director. Can you direct me to a link that will show how much of a financial percentage Adrian Shooter has in Vivarail as what you describe above as his investment.

Bletchleyite · 18 Sep 2019

Carlisle said:
splitting & re coupling a 101 probably took around half an hour whereas modern units are bolted together & contain associated electronics that wont work correctly in an altered formation without a hec of a lot of re programming, unless they’ve been designed with that in mind from the outset

Given that they're a short production run - rather Stadler-like - I can't see why they couldn't be designed for the removal of the centre car.

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