Carrying heavy items for passengers

Ivor · 19 Sep 2019

Newbie so please bear with me.

I work for an agency (when I actually get shifts) who have the zero hour contracts for GTR

I am far from work shy although I know many agency staff are but the majority I have met seem hard working.

Anyway the past few weeks I have had customer service shifts at a station where a young woman arrives on the opposite platform with a toddler & the biggest buggy I’ve ever seen also ladened with a couple of bags holding the toddler’s & her bits & pieces.

She says for her to use the walkway out, cross a road/pavement bridge takes her 10 minutes to get to her house where if someone carries the buggy/bags up & over the station bridge she can be home in a couple of minutes via the main platform/entrance.

The fault of nobody but I’m over retirement age, fairly fit but I am finding the weight & cumbersome buggy & bags difficult to the point yesterday my back went (not too severe but bad enough) I politely told her yesterday I can no longer do this (I willingly help disabled/vip/elderly) she will have to take the 10 minute walk round.

Bottom line she said she would place a complaint with the TOC! I dare not run this past the agency who knowing them will not sympathise & kick me off their books.

Advice please where the line is drawn re H&S etc?

Many thanks

RailUK Forums

Sleepy · 19 Sep 2019

Simple answer: you are not a porter ! An alternative route is available - it's not the railways concern if the amount of luggage etc. a passenger has with them means they'll take the longer route (I assume wheelchair users have to take the longer route ?) She sounds like the sort that doesn't take 3 year old child out of a pushchair when boarding/alighting trains and expects staff help.

Ivor · 19 Sep 2019

Sleepy said:
Simple answer: you are not a porter ! An alternative route is available - it's not the railways concern if the amount of luggage etc. a passenger has with them means they'll take the longer route (I assume wheelchair users have to take the longer route ?) She sounds like the sort that doesn't take 3 year old child out of a pushchair when boarding/alighting trains and expects staff help.

Yes wheelchair users use the accessible access to the road that side no problem.

Thanks Sleepy.

70014IronDuke · 19 Sep 2019

Sorry if this sounds a silly question, but need to clarify - is physical assistance to passengers part of your job description?

Even if it is, there has to be limits. How much are you expected to carry, 20 kg? 30 kg? 40 kg? The trouble is, if management is as ruthless as you imply, it is a difficult, if unfair, situation for you. Assuming your description of what she demands and your response is accurate, this would appear to be a sad example of the unthinking selfishness and insensitivity of some in the younger generation.

ps Welcome to the forum.

Ianno87 · 19 Sep 2019

Sleepy said:
Simple answer: you are not a porter ! An alternative route is available - it's not the railways concern if the amount of luggage etc. a passenger has with them means they'll take the longer route (I assume wheelchair users have to take the longer route ?) She sounds like the sort that doesn't take 3 year old child out of a pushchair when boarding/alighting trains and expects staff help.

It's safer to leave the child in the pushchair (if they are settled); avoids the hazard of the 'gap'; that can be huge to a 3 year old's little legs. You just go on forwards and off backwards.

However, as someone who takes a double pram with luggage on a train from time to time, I do not travel with any expectation of staff carrying my stuff for me (unless they happen to offer off their own initiative). I expect to take longer routes is necessary, and plan my journey accordingly.

The only exception may be if a lift etc. is out of service, so I'm only able to use a staircase as a result.

Puppetfinger · 19 Sep 2019

Just a thought, but if this individual was to actually make a complaint, would it not likely be directed initially to GTR who manage the station? If so is there not a local manager for GTR whom you can inform of the situation, hopefully if as described then this should be enough to put the situation to bed, and maybe then consider letting your agency manager know as a courtesy if you feel they will deal with it sensibly. Agency worker or not, you have a right to be treated fairly and correctly when you were going about your duties correctly, and arguably going the extra mile in trying to help someone.

Ivor · 19 Sep 2019

70014IronDuke said:
Sorry if this sounds a silly question, but need to clarify - is physical assistance to passengers part of your job description?

Even if it is, there has to be limits. How much are you expected to carry, 20 kg? 30 kg? 40 kg? The trouble is, if management is as ruthless as you imply, it is a difficult, if unfair, situation for you. Assuming your description of what she demands and your response is accurate, this would appear to be a sad example of the unthinking selfishness and insensitivity of some in the younger generation.

ps Welcome to the forum.

Thanks for the welcome!

Job description? If only! Short & sweet in job spec....

The role told verbally only is to assist customers where required (vip, disabled, elderly, passengers with difficulties) I suppose the last one leaves it open interpretation.

al78 · 19 Sep 2019

70014IronDuke said:
Sorry if this sounds a silly question, but need to clarify - is physical assistance to passengers part of your job description?

Even if it is, there has to be limits. How much are you expected to carry, 20 kg? 30 kg? 40 kg? The trouble is, if management is as ruthless as you imply, it is a difficult, if unfair, situation for you. Assuming your description of what she demands and your response is accurate, this would appear to be a sad example of the unthinking selfishness and insensitivity of some in the younger generation.

ps Welcome to the forum.

Why specifically single out younger people? Why not just say "people". Selfishness does not have an age restriction. If the woman was wearing black shoes, would you say it is an example of the unthinking selfishness and insensitivity of people who wear black shoes?

I do loathe these demonising and irrational stereotypes.

Ivor · 19 Sep 2019

Puppetfinger said:
Just a thought, but if this individual was to actually make a complaint, would it not likely be directed initially to GTR who manage the station? If so is there not a local manager for GTR whom you can inform of the situation, hopefully if as described then this should be enough to put the situation to bed, and maybe then consider letting your agency manager know as a courtesy if you feel they will deal with it sensibly. Agency worker or not, you have a right to be treated fairly and correctly when you were going about your duties correctly, and arguably going the extra mile in trying to help someone.

Thanks, good points.

I appreciate the replies here from the ‘proper TOC staff’ which most of you ladies & gents seem to be & are clued up.

Ivor · 19 Sep 2019

al78 said:
Why specifically single out younger people? Why not just say "people". Selfishness does not have an age restriction. If the woman was wearing black shoes, would you say it is an example of the unthinking selfishness and insensitivity of people who wear black shoes?

I do loathe these demonising and irrational stereotypes.

Really? I’m getting stick for that???

I was trying to set the scene I suppose making the point she was capable of a ten minute walk.

I’ve pointed out I’m an ‘old git’ to again put the query across but ok slap on the wrist accepted!!!!

farci · 19 Sep 2019

'Under the law employers are responsible for health and safety management. ... Employers must give you information about the risks in your workplace and how you are protected, also instruct and train you on how to deal with the risks. Employers must consult employees on health and safety issues.'
http://www.hse.gov.uk/workers/employers.htm
I am not a lawyer but I think GTR are responsible for your wellbeing even although you were recruited by an agency. You can report a concern in confidence to the Health & Safety Executive through this webpage:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/contact/concerns.htm

LowLevel · 19 Sep 2019

Passengers must be able to manage their own luggage and belongings. TOCs will assist where reasonable to do so however it is subject to staff capabilities and availability.

IE if you turn up with anything that the employee feels it's unsafe to lift they do have the right to refuse.

Carrying large pushchairs up and down stairs is not part of the staff job description. Even if the lifts have failed etc there's no expectation for individuals to put themselves at risk of injury to move passenger's belongings.

That being said I am tall, heavily built and well capable of lifting heavier items so as a contingency I will offer help if necessary. It wouldn't be fair to expect a 60 something year old colleague to necessarily offer the same.

Ivor · 19 Sep 2019

LowLevel said:
Passengers must be able to manage their own luggage and belongings. TOCs will assist where reasonable to do so however it is subject to staff capabilities and availability.

IE if you turn up with anything that the employee feels it's unsafe to lift they do have the right to refuse.

Carrying large pushchairs up and down stairs is not part of the staff job description. Even if the lifts have failed etc there's no expectation for individuals to put themselves at risk of injury to move passenger's belongings.

That being said I am tall, heavily built and well capable of lifting heavier items so as a contingency I will offer help if necessary. It wouldn't be fair to expect a 60 something year old colleague to necessarily offer the same.

Thanks, your first paragraph gives a good pointer.

I’m not afraid to get ‘stuck in’ but got to hold my hands up to say this item plus the bags with it I have found a struggle.

The right to refuse is a difficult area as I suppose all of us that want to ‘do our job’ but like anything limitations have to kick in.

Ivor · 19 Sep 2019

Puppetfinger said:
Just a thought, but if this individual was to actually make a complaint, would it not likely be directed initially to GTR who manage the station? If so is there not a local manager for GTR whom you can inform of the situation, hopefully if as described then this should be enough to put the situation to bed, and maybe then consider letting your agency manager know as a courtesy if you feel they will deal with it sensibly. Agency worker or not, you have a right to be treated fairly and correctly when you were going about your duties correctly, and arguably going the extra mile in trying to help someone.

Although most TOC staff treat us as equals (not all) The local manager I could find out but would feel like a school boy what on paper might be perceived as trivial.

It may be ‘hot air’ from this lady as she was fine until I politely said going forward I couldn’t continue & she would have to go the ‘longer route’ to her home. I’ll wait to see if any ‘fall out’

It’s not helped by the fact I work solo on these shifts.

Fawkes Cat · 19 Sep 2019

The usual advice to any worker in this sort of position would be to get their union involved.

I don't know if the RMT are willing or able to represent agency staff, and there are always issues around people joining unions after a problem has started, but if you are not already a member, I would suggest that an email to the RMT might not do any harm. If you are already a member, you should certainly be talking to your union.

Dieseldriver · 19 Sep 2019

Ivor said:
Really? I’m getting stick for that???

I was trying to set the scene I suppose making the point she was capable of a ten minute walk.

I’ve pointed out I’m an ‘old git’ to again put the query across but ok slap on the wrist accepted!!!!

I may be wrong but I don't think al78 was referring to your post (I thought your post was reasonable and couldn't see a problem with it) but rather referring to the other members post which they quoted (which incidentally I took exception to aswell).
Not got any real advice to give other than what others have said about you trying to have a chat with TOC staff and maybe the TOC management. I wouldn't worry too much about it if you were polite to the lady in question.

Taunton · 19 Sep 2019

Sleepy said:
Simple answer: you are not a porter ! An alternative route is available

In my long ago youthful years (end of steam era) a favourite lineside was a public footbridge over the line, steps only. Quite regularly a mum and pram would approach. It would not have been dreamed of by myself, or my mates, not to assist up the steps, walk across, help down the other side. We were not employed for any job and received no wages. They always said Thank You, and we replied No Problem.

All these years on, I occasionally still do in such situations. Do we expect staff to stand and gawp at me with their mouth open as I do so?

Waldgrun · 19 Sep 2019

25 Kilos is about the limit for lifting unassisted, I think you will find. Depending on the size and weight of the child and type of buggy, most are likely to exceed this limit! There is no way you should lift this with your back bent! I used to work at a station which has steps down to the street on the main platform (and at ramp from the other).
Many a time I refused help, because of various reasons, like not taking the kid(s) out of the pram/buggy,pram being used as a pantechnicon, expecting me to go down the steps backwards bent over and holding the weight! I also refuse to assist wheelchair users for the same reason!
There was a policy at the time that persons with prams wheelchairs etc. Could go one stop further on use a board crossing and double back, so as to exit via the ramp, not ideal but the best there was at the time! Thinking of it, the station did not have a wheelchair ramp at the time.
I once had a manager, visit me after a complaint due to me not assisting, she said that if I couldn't lift items down the steps to the street why didn't I lift the items over the footbridge instead! She looked at my face, then knew how foolish she was!
Under H & S laws you have a right to work, with out injuring yourself, don't be steamroller-ed in an actions that could result in such! Because believe you me management will look to @rsecover!

LowLevel · 19 Sep 2019

Taunton said:
In my long ago youthful years (end of steam era) a favourite lineside was a public footbridge over the line, steps only. Quite regularly a mum and pram would approach. It would not have been dreamed of by myself, or my mates, not to assist up the steps, walk across, help down the other side. We were not employed for any job and received no wages. They always said Thank You, and we replied No Problem.

All these years on, I occasionally still do in such situations. Do we expect staff to stand and gawp at me with their mouth open as I do so?

I expect you to crack on with it if you wish. A counter point to your story. In about 1970 a friend of my family was helping someone with a suitcase at Birmingham New Street station at the age of about 20. She ruptured a disc in her spine and has had a lifetime of pain and discomfort for the last 50 years.

I only get one spine, I do not feel obliged to put it at risk for anyone except at my own choosing.

DarloRich · 19 Sep 2019

Taunton said:
In my long ago youthful years (end of steam era) a favourite lineside was a public footbridge over the line, steps only. Quite regularly a mum and pram would approach. It would not have been dreamed of by myself, or my mates, not to assist up the steps, walk across, help down the other side. We were not employed for any job and received no wages. They always said Thank You, and we replied No Problem.

All these years on, I occasionally still do in such situations. Do we expect staff to stand and gawp at me with their mouth open as I do so?

This is the answer you want: We live in an HSEA gone made, snowflake, tipy tappy, namby pamby, evil and oppressively imposed European legislation world these days where everyone is selfish and lazy not like in them olden days when men were men and common sense ruled

The real answer is that if you are fit and strong and comfortable to do so please do. Don't if you don't want to. If employed your employer has a duty of care towards you and cannot put you in position where you may be harmed.

Camden · 19 Sep 2019

If someone wants to voluntarily risk putting their back out and in turn throwing themselves on the mercy of our state's benefits system, simply to help someone out, they have my admiration for not allowing our mean society dent their consideration for others.

But this is about whether someone should risk the above (clearly a real risk) for minimum wage, for a company that can't even be bothered to employ him properly on a contract, and to top it all to help someone who a) can't be bothered to walk all of 10 minutes, and b) as it turns out clearly hasn't got any basic courtesy for him.

If the issue of societal common consideration needs to picked up with anyone, it's with self-entitled her. And the company.

Taunton · 19 Sep 2019

Do none of you know how to handle potentially heavy items? You don't need an employer's course and certificate, it's even on YouTube. One of the basics of life, like walking without stepping on doggy-doos.

Ivor · 19 Sep 2019

Dieseldriver said:
I may be wrong but I don't think al78 was referring to your post (I thought your post was reasonable and couldn't see a problem with it) but rather referring to the other members post which they quoted (which incidentally I took exception to aswell).
Not got any real advice to give other than what others have said about you trying to have a chat with TOC staff and maybe the TOC management. I wouldn't worry too much about it if you were polite to the lady in question.

Ah ok, it’s just I mentioned in my post a ‘young woman’ & a subsequent post mentioned age group that gitvtge response.

I appreciate all the positive replies & advice as I am a latecomer to railway work & wanted to call on the vast experience out there.

packermac · 19 Sep 2019

Taunton said:
Do none of you know how to handle potentially heavy items? You don't need an employer's course and certificate, it's even on YouTube. One of the basics of life, like walking without stepping on doggy-doos.

You certainly needed a course at my employer. You were not allowed to undertake roles such as store man or baggage loader without having attended a heavy lifting course. Also why airline baggage over (I think now 20kg used to be 25kg) has to have a heavy label on it.

LowLevel · 19 Sep 2019

Taunton said:
Do none of you know how to handle potentially heavy items? You don't need an employer's course and certificate, it's even on YouTube. One of the basics of life, like walking without stepping on doggy-doos.

Yeah, I go to the gym and lift them for fun in a controlled environment. I'm quite happy chucking around weights in the three figures KG. Any manual handling course will tell you that it is very easy to damage yourself, that's without dealing with large, ungainly items like suitcases and buggies. The weight can shift and this is what causes problems, or you can miss your footing or slip.

The employer will not support you if you are injured in this way as you will be breaching their inevitable policy not to put yourself at risk.

cin88 · 19 Sep 2019

Without wanting to be "that guy" that goes about quoting the rule book all the time.

GE/RT8000/G1 1.1 as follows:

Rules, regulations and instructions apply to the task being carried out and to those carrying out the task, no matter what grade or job title they have.

Unless you are being instructed by a competent person, you must be competent to correctly apply the rules, regulations and instructions to the tasks you are authorised to carry out. Safety must always be your first concern.

If there is no rule that allows or prevents you doing something you believe must be done, you must do it in the safest way you know taking into account your training and experience.

Therefore in in your experience, you have judged it unsafe for you to assist the person with their items. As far as i'm concerned you have every right to refuse. It pretty much says it right there in the rule book.

I personally declined to assist with heavy/awkward items a couple of times when I was station staff. Each time I did, I went to the shift manager (or phoned them) and told them exactly what the item/s were, the time of my declining to help, a description of the customer and my reason why including quoting the rule above. I never got into any trouble over doing so. As other posters have said though, join a union so you have support available in the event that require it.

dk1 · 19 Sep 2019

Virgin Trains used to have posters at stations that clearly told passengers...

"Only bring luggage & belongings that YOU can carry"

twpsaesneg · 19 Sep 2019

Firstly, I sympathise with the situation you find yourself in!

I would suggest that unless you have received formal training in manual handling by your employer you should not be carrying out manual handling tasks.

Also there are certain requirements for carrying items around the railway which you should be briefed on as well (I'm not sure if you're north or south of the Thames, but if you're in OLE land long items need to be carried horizontally for instance).

It sounds as if GTR have given you a very poor briefing on your roles and responsibilities but based on what I see other "customer services" type people doing around the UK I wouldn't expect your role to extend to more than giving passengers basic guidance on what trains are going where and which platform they are going from, and providing a "presence" on the platform.

There are some that will undoubtedly say that this is being snowflakey etc. but you need to look after your own health and wellbeing and cover your own back - for instance you could also be opening yourself up to allegations of theft or damage from unscrupulous people especially if you are on your own.

There's nothing unreasonable about asking for a written job description and appropriate training for your role.

Ivor · 19 Sep 2019

twpsaesneg said:
Firstly, I sympathise with the situation you find yourself in!

I would suggest that unless you have received formal training in manual handling by your employer you should not be carrying out manual handling tasks.

Also there are certain requirements for carrying items around the railway which you should be briefed on as well (I'm not sure if you're north or south of the Thames, but if you're in OLE land long items need to be carried horizontally for instance).

It sounds as if GTR have given you a very poor briefing on your roles and responsibilities but based on what I see other "customer services" type people doing around the UK I wouldn't expect your role to extend to more than giving passengers basic guidance on what trains are going where and which platform they are going from, and providing a "presence" on the platform.

There are some that will undoubtedly say that this is being snowflakey etc. but you need to look after your own health and wellbeing and cover your own back - for instance you could also be opening yourself up to allegations of theft or damage from unscrupulous people especially if you are on your own.

There's nothing unreasonable about asking for a written job description and appropriate training for your role.

I am South East Home Counties way.

I am ramped trained (by GTR)

As far as training/advice re awkward or heavy articles the answer is no but in fairness albeit in hindsight it should probably be the agency I work for on behalf of GTR who have their own training office but put through so many people for different roles as Customer Service, Ticketless Survey, Gateline, Dispatch etc it really is a numbers game with them & the interview process is really non existent other than a brief class room briefing & hand outs.

Bottom line is as long as they fill shifts that GTR request weekly then that’s their priority. We wait every Friday for an email to say we have shifts the following week or not & sometimes many of us can go weeks without a shift but that’s zero hour contracts for you & needs must.

Most of us if I’m honest become a ‘Jack of all trades & a Master of none’

Bletchleyite · 19 Sep 2019

dk1 said:
Virgin Trains used to have posters at stations that clearly told passengers...

"Only bring luggage & belongings that YOU can carry"

She could if she could be bothered walking round on the road. She sounds lazy and obnoxious and deserving of no help whatsoever.

Carrying heavy items for passengers

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