Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Since the Vivarail "master" Class 230 units thread has now been officially locked, I have opened this new thread where posting discussions can be made specific to this line.
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Class 230 units training/introduction on the Borderlands line: updates
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Neen Sollars
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Testing of the DEMU configuration for use in the Transport for Wales order continues:
Thanks to tnxrail
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Thanks to tnxrail
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Phil Scott
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Does anyone know the former identity of the centre car 300202 please?
The Borderlands line was my local line as a youngster and was operated by a seemingly random mix of 101, 142, 150 and 153 stock.
In the local press we were often told of electrification plans and extra Wirral stations. Nothing came to pass.
Let’s hope the introduction of these trains does actually happen!
In the local press we were often told of electrification plans and extra Wirral stations. Nothing came to pass.
Let’s hope the introduction of these trains does actually happen!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
And that they work!
Would anyone be up for getting tipsy in a pub near the depot and then taking one of these things for a spin round the Liverpool loop in a Titfield Thunderbolt style? I bet you can the bits needed to make them work off the third rail on Ebay for pennies...
PHILIPE
Veteran Member
If you read Post #63 on the main thread, it doesn't make very good reading
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ty-of-vivarail-class-230-trains.191952/page-3
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ty-of-vivarail-class-230-trains.191952/page-3
The testbed train did a full four days of booked trips along the Cotswold Line from Tuesday to Friday last week (plus a short shakedown appearance last Monday) with no signs of any issues, so maybe it is happier being powered by batteries most of the time.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Possibly, the thing is it isn't operating an intensive all-stations service when it does that. It strikes me that most of the testing was not representative of the actual service conditions - both here and for the Marston Vale (the lines being similar in terms of service pattern and the number of stations). I really don't understand why they don't operate a full test service, i.e. with door release, closure etc and stopping at the stations (with doors taped off). For the MV they seem just to have done pretty much non-stop runs between trains.
I would expect that is the sort of thing they will be doing once a train gets sent to Wrexham.
On the Cotswold Line 'test track' section there are only two intermediate stations anyway, so it would probably not tell them that much - and Network Rail wants to make sure that the 230 stays well out of the way of the GWR services, with a bit of a margin allowed to fix things should a fault develop en route, though there was no sign of that last week.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
They didn't at Bletchley - I believe they mostly ran non-stop. They should really have run a shadow full service with door releases etc at every station. If they had, I think there's a good chance they would have found far more of the issues.
PHILIPE
Veteran Member
They certainly haven't been tested under the conditions of the Borderline route with has a lengthy steep bank approaching Hawarden with a ruling gradient of 1 in 53. People have been talking about `153s also working over the route should the 230s not be available to replace the 150s any time soon. They worked the route up until 2006 and one of the reasons they were replaced was due to their struggling up this bank and losing time. There have also been adhesion problems on the bank during the leaf fall season leading to trains slipping to a stand.
I think lessons will have been learned from the Marston Vale line - and it's not as if the Welsh sets are simply a same again order anyway, is it? As a customer, TfW will doubtless have specific testing and reliability requirements in mind before accepting any sets for traffic - it would be pretty odd if they didn't.
The Cotswold test route includes five miles up the 1 in 100 of Chipping Campden bank, which isn't exactly a piece of cake to climb. Should the 230 test runs continue for a few more weeks, then there will be plenty of leaves in the vicinity much of the way up the hill.
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Given the Island Line is to get 3rd rail powered variants of these, and given TfW's desire to run into Liverpool, combined with Merseytravels long term desire for electrification of the whole line, does anyone know if there is any prospect of this line getting third-rail hybrid trains to allow them to run to Liverpool James Street?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I don't believe this is presently on the cards, but if desired I suspect that as DEMUs it would be reasonably easy to fit shoegear to them if they did want to go that way. The disused platform at James St would be ideal, and the shopping and business centre of Liverpool has shifted that way a bit in recent years. They'd need end doors, though, as the outbound line towards Bidston at Hamilton Square is in a single track tunnel.
Neen Sollars
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Photographs of 230002 on test today at Stephen Widdowson`s flickr site. Beautiful day beautiful photographs. The first TfW train should have been delivered "early summer" so already two months behind. Perhaps they will be ready for service for the May 2020 timetable change?
https://www.flickr.com/photos/149822823@N04/48759990002/in/photostream/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/149822823@N04/48759990002/in/photostream/
It is very unlikely due to capacity constraints. The Mersey tunnel and loop have 16tph peak, 14tph during the day and 8tph after 7pm and on Sundays. There has been proposals to reinstate a platform at Birkenhead North to terminate services there. That would double the number of connecting services. The new stock should be able to both introduce some desperately needed recovery time (59-60 minute journey time) and extend to Birkenhead North (2 minutes). I am not sure that even this short extension will happen.
The loop was originally designed for trains every one and a half minutes, so I don't believe the number of tph itself wouldn't be a constraint, but inability of the service to keep to exact time would.
To this end, I was thinking that instead of allowing it through the loop, it would at most be allowed to start and terminate at the "spare" platform at James Street, as sometimes happens with the Wirral Line on occasion.
Terminating in Birkenhead sounds like a tough sell versus an actual through train.
To this end, I was thinking that instead of allowing it through the loop, it would at most be allowed to start and terminate at the "spare" platform at James Street, as sometimes happens with the Wirral Line on occasion.
Terminating in Birkenhead sounds like a tough sell versus an actual through train.
TheSel
Member
Do you mean to reinstate the ability to terminate / depart back from a platform (presumably Platform 2) - as used to happen with DMUs in the early 1970s? Would require the [re]installation of a crossover, and associated signalling changes, as opposed to the actual building of a platform.
I thought there had been a fourth platform. I can't remember the details so you are probably right.
Sprinter107
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Slightly off topic, but didn't sine of those Wrexham to Bidston trains carry on to New Brighton many moons ago ?
jamesst
Member
Originally designed for trains every 90 seconds round the loop like you said but modern signalling constraints (ie double blocking and so forth) mean there isn't a hell of a lot of capacity left from Hamilton square onwards without a totally new resignalling project.
Yes they did.
Up to 1960 they carried on to Seacombe which, pre BR, was a non-electrified LMS branch which carried only LNER passenger trains. Seacombe had (and still has) ferry services to Liverpool.
When the Seacombe branch closed, the track bed was used for the approach road to the Kingsway Mersey Road Tunnel.
The trains were then diverted to New Brighton, which also had a ferry connection to Liverpool until the early 70s.
When the New Brighton ferry stopped, the trains were soon diverted to Birkenhead North, then cut back to Bidston.
All that would be needed to reinstate to New Brighton (if there was demand) would be the restoration of the track on the Bidston Triangle as the line that used to go from Bidston to the New Brighton branch is now a siding with a dead end.
Sprinter107
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Thanks for that. It sounds like the Northern terminus has been swapped a few times during the course of history.
You’re welcome.
The Wirral does have a fascinating railway history.
Pre BR, there could be found passenger services from three of the “Big 4” companies (LMS, GWR and, amazingly, LNER) as well as the (independent) Mersey Railway. Third and fourth rail electric services, and some steam passenger and freight right up to 1967.
Astonishing given how “rationalised” the system is now.
Can’t complain about the Merseyrail frequency though...
The Wirral does have a fascinating railway history.
Pre BR, there could be found passenger services from three of the “Big 4” companies (LMS, GWR and, amazingly, LNER) as well as the (independent) Mersey Railway. Third and fourth rail electric services, and some steam passenger and freight right up to 1967.
Astonishing given how “rationalised” the system is now.
Can’t complain about the Merseyrail frequency though...
Sprinter107
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Didn't realise such a small area had such a big railway history. Amazing that 3 of the big 4 served that area. There cant be too many places where that happens.
Not so small really. Basically one half of a very big city, plus surrounds.
Although Merseyrail is excellent, it's a shame that so much of the national infrastructure was erased. Had it not, today Birkenhead would be just as successful as Liverpool city centre, and Liverpool as a whole would be much better off as a result.
Although Merseyrail is excellent, it's a shame that so much of the national infrastructure was erased. Had it not, today Birkenhead would be just as successful as Liverpool city centre, and Liverpool as a whole would be much better off as a result.
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