Could a bus network without set timetables succeed?

PaulMc7 · 19 Sep 2019

I was thinking about something different and it gave me an idea for a discussion. Could buses without set timing points, scheduled times etc work? Personally, I don't think so because of it being Russian roulette for when a bus could possibly turn up and the only way to stop that being an issue is for every bus stop to have a timing board that's 100% accurate. I also think it would be difficult to work out where to take buses off to go back to the depot as they could be at the terminus at different times each day as there would be no set recovery time etc

An example of what I mean is it just saying something like this:

7am to 9am- every 7/8 mins
9am to 3pm- every 12 mins
3pm to 7pm- every 10 mins
7pm to 9pm- every 20 mins
9pm to 11pm- every 30 mins

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Bletchleyite · 19 Sep 2019

That's basically how TfL publicise it even if there is a working timetable.

Personally I think you can operate without a timetable on a frequency of about every 5 minutes. Below that and not having a timetable causes significant time-wasting as you on average have to stand around for half the gap between services. Though having things like tracking apps do help to compensate.

PaulMc7 · 19 Sep 2019

Bletchleyite said:
That's basically how TfL publicise it even if there is a working timetable.

Personally I think you can operate without a timetable on a frequency of about every 5 minutes. Below that and not having a timetable causes significant time-wasting as you on average have to stand around for half the gap between services. Though having things like tracking apps do help to compensate.

Yeah that's why I think it could be an issue. Each bus would need to be able to have a system fitted that tracks every bus behind it too on the same route and that could be expensive to come up with and install

Flange Squeal · 19 Sep 2019

PaulMc7 said:
Yeah that's why I think it could be an issue. Each bus would need to be able to have a system fitted that tracks every bus behind it too on the same route and that could be expensive to come up with and install

The 'Ticketer' brand of ticket machines many bus companies use these days have tracking built in, and larger companies that use other machines (such as Stagecoach) also have the facility.

PaulMc7 · 19 Sep 2019

Flange Squeal said:
The 'Ticketer' brand of ticket machines many bus companies use these days have tracking built in, and larger companies that use other machines (such as Stagecoach) also have the facility.

Interesting. In Glasgow, our timing boards at bus stops are fairly basic and that's where the problem is. It can say a bus is due when in reality it's about 6/7 stops and 5mins away

Flange Squeal · 19 Sep 2019

PaulMc7 said:
Interesting. In Glasgow, our timing boards at bus stops are fairly basic and that's where the problem is. It can say a bus is due when in reality it's about 6/7 stops and 5mins away

Sounds like the boards may be linked to the timetable rather than the vehicle tracking system, which obviously isn't much use! The mix of vehicles with and without live feeds see the public transport screens in my town display a mix of a due time (non-tracked) or 'xx mins' (tracked).

PaulMc7 · 19 Sep 2019

Flange Squeal said:
Sounds like the boards may be linked to the timetable rather than the vehicle tracking system, which obviously isn't much use! The mix of vehicles with and without live feeds see the public transport screens in my town display a mix of a due time (non-tracked) or 'xx mins' (tracked).

Yeah I think they are like that here. Certainly with the services I know the timetables of really well anyway. Yeah that would be frustrating. There's been days I've caught a bus that said due in 1 minute after walking for 5 minutes near my house yet there's other days where I've missed them massively. Doesn't help that my bus ticket is also on my phone so I can't really keep switching on First buses app for tracking and then go back onto my ticket constantly

njlawley · 20 Sep 2019

Naturally, it depends on if you have a scheduled time or live tracking. With live tracking, systems use an algorithm taking the position of the bus, the timetable, and how previous journeys fared. So if the last four or five buses were, say, held up due to school drop-off traffic, your bus might read that it is 5 minutes away even though in reality it is a minute or two away.

What you also have is a slight time delay because the data goes from the bus to the data handler (such as Vix, 21st Century, Trapeze etc), then back to the bus stop. And displays only tend to refresh every 30 seconds.

I'm afraid it is one of those things. Naturally, that will only improve in time as the technology improves.

jamesst · 20 Sep 2019

Flange Squeal said:
Sounds like the boards may be linked to the timetable rather than the vehicle tracking system, which obviously isn't much use! The mix of vehicles with and without live feeds see the public transport screens in my town display a mix of a due time (non-tracked) or 'xx mins' (tracked).

Most of them in Merseyside seem to be the same, buses will come and go on the screen with no sign of the actual bus!

Tetchytyke · 20 Sep 2019

The general rule seems to be if the display lists a time (e.g 1432) it's running off the timetable and if it lists a wait (e.g. 3 mins) it's running off live data.

At intermediate stops the wait is always just estimated, based on various conditions, and how well these have been set up affects how accurate it is. At the stop next to my parents' in Bradford the wait is always about 3 mins longer than the display says as, for some reason, the assumption in the system is that it takes 30 seconds not 3 minutes to get through the very busy traffic lights.

PaulMc7 · 20 Sep 2019

Arctic Troll said:
The general rule seems to be if the display lists a time (e.g 1432) it's running off the timetable and if it lists a wait (e.g. 3 mins) it's running off live data.

At intermediate stops the wait is always just estimated, based on various conditions, and how well these have been set up affects how accurate it is. At the stop next to my parents' in Bradford the wait is always about 3 mins longer than the display says as, for some reason, the assumption in the system is that it takes 30 seconds not 3 minutes to get through the very busy traffic lights.

Yeah in Glasgow when it shows the timetable time and not the number of minutes it's practically the sign for this bus is either very late or not coming at all except on a Sunday service here as some stops don't track anything at all

matt_world2004 · 20 Sep 2019

Some buses in london have software with an headway caclulation. If the bus gets to close to the bus in front it shows how much deviation from headway the driver is experiancing in seconds for any deviation over a minute. If the driver has correct headway or is too far away from the bus in front it just shows the time. I have only ever seen it used once.

PaulMc7 · 20 Sep 2019

matt_world2004 said:
Some buses in london have software with an headway caclulation. If the bus gets to close to the bus in front it shows how much deviation from headway the driver is experiancing in seconds for any deviation over a minute. If the driver has correct headway or is too far away from the bus in front it just shows the time. I have only ever seen it used once.

That's actually a really smart system tbh. Something I've never experienced having never been to London though

PeterC · 20 Sep 2019

The only ones that I have had occasion to study are in Bucks and Oxford. Neither seem to be "smart". Arrivals at Chesham seem to be based on driving by the direct route down the High Street which has been pedestrianised for years while in Oxford the Park&Ride times don't seem to allow for the extended dwell time loading at St Aldates as buses at Queens Lane are generally one minute away for well over a minute.

Ken H · 20 Sep 2019

maybe bus companies who dont have tracking should look at Google maps to update their PIS. Its quite accurate for delays when i am driving.

goldisgood · 20 Sep 2019

PeterC said:
The only ones that I have had occasion to study are in Bucks and Oxford. Neither seem to be "smart". Arrivals at Chesham seem to be based on driving by the direct route down the High Street which has been pedestrianised for years while in Oxford the Park&Ride times don't seem to allow for the extended dwell time loading at St Aldates as buses at Queens Lane are generally one minute away for well over a minute.

I use Oxontime on the app and on displays every day and I find it to be hugely accurate, apart from when a bus has just started a route (but even that seems to work quite well, with interworking seemingly recognised by the system).
Personally I think that once buses are every 8 minutes or more frequent then timetables become unnecessary - the buses don't seem to run to them for most of the time, and they often bunch. Regulation of services ideally works better than a frequent timetabled service.

PaulMc7 · 20 Sep 2019

goldisgood said:
I use Oxontime on the app and on displays every day and I find it to be hugely accurate, apart from when a bus has just started a route (but even that seems to work quite well, with interworking seemingly recognised by the system).
Personally I think that once buses are every 8 minutes or more frequent then timetables become unnecessary - the buses don't seem to run to them for most of the time, and they often bunch. Regulation of services ideally works better than a frequent timetabled service.

Yeah definitely. Because of how bad Glasgow is for congestion it's even likely for buses that are every 10/12 mins to bunch a lot. If someone wanted to put the money into a good tracking system it could definitely work. Works well enough with our subway service too

johnnychips · 20 Sep 2019

The First live tracking app in Doncaster works really well, and kindly shows other companies’ buses as well. As others have said, if it shows minutes it’s live, if a time then it’s according to the timetable. Strangely, the display at bus stops can differ by a minute or two from the app: I would have thought they used the same system.

PaulMc7 · 20 Sep 2019

johnnychips said:
The First live tracking app in Doncaster works really well, and kindly shows other companies’ buses as well. As others have said, if it shows minutes it’s live, if a time then it’s according to the timetable. Strangely, the display at bus stops can differ by a minute or two from the app: I would have thought they used the same system.

Yeah I've noticed that in Glasgow too. The displays are very rarely the same as First's app. It is weird but up here it's not First who have anything to do with the boards so it makes sense in a way

Deerfold · 27 Sep 2019

matt_world2004 said:
Some buses in london have software with an headway caclulation.

*All TfL buses.

As to whether drivers are supposed to take any notice of it...

njlawley · 30 Sep 2019

Going back to the original question, I would say no.

The reason being is because you need a timetable for the following reasons:

1) Drivers
A timetable helps you plan how many drivers you need. Drivers need to work to duties, so that they can work under domestic hours regulations. The timetable will also help schedule driver duties, particularly their sign on, sign off and break times.

2) PVR
A timetable will allow a company to work out how many buses they need, otherwise they may have too many or too few. For some companies, it would also allow for efficiencies, such as inter-working.

3) Mileage
You need a timetable to work out the total mileage of a service. This will help plan fuel costs, but more importantly BSOG. My reason for saying about BSOG is because of how the DfT works. Part of a company's BSOG payment is paid during the year, so they work off estimates for the year ahead based on the previous year. Only after the end of the year is the remaining payment made, as this is based on the actual mileage run so they can adjust this payment accordingly.

Could a bus network without set timetables succeed?

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