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Thameslink services at Rainham

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bionic

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I think the point is that the Rainham service was a last minute tack-on after the Bermondsey diveunder was already under construction. Its purely to get trains from the core out of the way because they can't get them through Windmill Bridge and East Croydon as things stand. That's the thinking that drove the decision to run 700s to Rainham. Do not be misled into thinking that the service is actually there out of some altruistic desire on the part of GTR to benefit the good people along the southern bank of the Thames.

It also did SE a favour, allowing them to get rid of the DOO metro work beyond Gravesend (the Gillinghams), which presumably makes it easier for TFL to run it when they inevitably take it over.
 
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NorthKent1989

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bionic said:
I think the point is that the Rainham service was a last minute tack-on after the Bermondsey diveunder was already under construction. Its purely to get trains from the core out of the way because they can't get them through Windmill Bridge and East Croydon as things stand. That's the thinking that drove the decision to run 700s to Rainham. Do not be misled into thinking that the service is actually there out of some altruistic desire on the part of GTR to benefit the good people along the southern bank of the Thames.

It also did SE a favour, allowing them to get rid of the DOO metro work beyond Gravesend (the Gillinghams), which presumably makes it easier for TFL to run it when they inevitably take it over.
Click to expand...

I always wondered why the 375’s never worked the CX To Gillingham fasts? It was certainly a long enough journey to warrant them being used rather than the networkers, it was neither mainline or metro really it was regional/inter-urban
 
Mikey C

Mikey C

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bionic said:
I think the point is that the Rainham service was a last minute tack-on after the Bermondsey diveunder was already under construction. Its purely to get trains from the core out of the way because they can't get them through Windmill Bridge and East Croydon as things stand. That's the thinking that drove the decision to run 700s to Rainham. Do not be misled into thinking that the service is actually there out of some altruistic desire on the part of GTR to benefit the good people along the southern bank of the Thames.

It also did SE a favour, allowing them to get rid of the DOO metro work beyond Gravesend (the Gillinghams), which presumably makes it easier for TFL to run it when they inevitably take it over.
Click to expand...

It certainly didn't benefit SE passengers, losing 2 Cannon Streets via Greenwich when GTR were unable to run both the replacement Thameslink services...
 
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JonathanH

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NorthKent1989 said:
I always wondered why the 375’s never worked the CX To Gillingham fasts? It was certainly a long enough journey to warrant them being used rather than the networkers, it was neither mainline or metro really it was regional/inter-urban
Click to expand...

Were there ever fasts? Better described as semi-fast I suspect.

These services always appear to have been in the suburban bracket rather than main line, hence EPBs, not VEPs (although did the CAPs have a role on this route in the late 80s) which gave way to Networkers.

Not sure why 375s would have been ordered for the North Kent route when the Networker fleet was sufficient - peak Medway passengers can get to Cannon Street by 375s fast via Longfield so it's more about short distance travel.

Point remains that there wouldn't be enough 375s to operate this route.
 
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JonathanH

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bionic said:
Its purely to get trains from the core out of the way because they can't get them through Windmill Bridge and East Croydon as things stand.
Click to expand...

It isnt just Windmill Bridge - mixing 8 and 12 car trains on the route to East Croydon at peak times would have been a disaster and there aren't enough paths to run separate 8-cars to Caterham and Tattenham Corner.
 
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youngpete

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JonathanH said:
Were there ever fasts? Better described as semi-fast I suspect.

These services always appear to have been in the suburban bracket rather than main line, hence EPBs, not VEPs (although did the CAPs have a role on this route in the late 80s) which gave way to Networkers.

Not sure why 375s would have been ordered for the North Kent route when the Networker fleet was sufficient - peak Medway passengers can get to Cannon Street by 375s fast via Longfield so it's more about short distance travel.

Point remains that there wouldn't be enough 375s to operate this route.
Click to expand...

Prior to the Kent Coast Electrification (1959) they were operated by 2HALs and then 2 HAPs. After Strood only called at Gravesend, Dartford, Woolwich Arsenal, London Bridge, Waterloo East and Charing Cross. Rochester to Charing Cross was 60 minutes. Picked up and dropped of a Maidstone West portion at Strood. Immediately after electrification they were extended from Gillingham calling at all stations to Ramsgate. And then the rot set in. More stops brought in progressively, Rerouted from the Greenwich line to call at Lewisham and then handed over to Thameslink but restored to the Greenwich route.
Reduced the choice of trains for the accompanied off peak Kids for a Quid promotion from some stations and removed them totally from Higham. I wonder how many stations will lose this feature when (if) Thameslink are extended to Maidstone East/Ashford. In that connection there is a wheelchair loading/unloading ramp specifically for Class 700s already in place at Hollingbourne.
 
43074

43074

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NorthKent1989 said:
Any CrossRail extension won’t be going any further than Gravesend/Ebbsfleet and even then we’re probably looking at the late 2030’s before any work will get started at the earliest, there has been no mention of CrossRail extending any further to Medway, though that would be great.

Thameslink just needs to speed up the service, if it’s to remain long term, then once East Croydon is sorted who knows what will happen.

One thing for certain I don’t think this Maidstone East service will materialise, GTR Have been very quiet on that front, I think best case scenario, it’ll be quietly delayed to 2020/2021, worst case scenario; it’ll be quietly and purposefully forgotten about by GTR.
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Quietly, purposefully and quote rightly forgotten about as operationally it will be very messy at Chislehurst Jns anyway, not to mention crossing to the Kent Fasts in the London Bridge/Blue Anchor area and the stabling situation shows no sign of resolving itself
 
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NorthKent1989

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youngpete said:
Prior to the Kent Coast Electrification (1959) they were operated by 2HALs and then 2 HAPs. After Strood only called at Gravesend, Dartford, Woolwich Arsenal, London Bridge, Waterloo East and Charing Cross. Rochester to Charing Cross was 60 minutes. Picked up and dropped of a Maidstone West portion at Strood. Immediately after electrification they were extended from Gillingham calling at all stations to Ramsgate. And then the rot set in. More stops brought in progressively, Rerouted from the Greenwich line to call at Lewisham and then handed over to Thameslink but restored to the Greenwich route.
Reduced the choice of trains for the accompanied off peak Kids for a Quid promotion from some stations and removed them totally from Higham. I wonder how many stations will lose this feature when (if) Thameslink are extended to Maidstone East/Ashford. In that connection there is a wheelchair loading/unloading ramp specifically for Class 700s already in place at Hollingbourne.
Click to expand...

I never understood why the semi fasts weren’t kept to run via Greenwich? Greenwich I would have thought had far more going on that Lewisham and Blackheath to warrant the these services to call there.

In the 2000s this service called at Greenwich rather than Lewisham/Blackheath, and it was much faster, the timetable change in 2009 reverted them back to Lewisham
 
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NorthKent1989

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43074 said:
Quietly, purposefully and quote rightly forgotten about as operationally it will be very messy at Chislehurst Jns anyway, not to mention crossing to the Kent Fasts in the London Bridge/Blue Anchor area and the stabling situation shows no sign of resolving itself
Click to expand...

The Maidstone service was originally planned to call at Swanley, Bromley South, Elephant & Castle then into the core, which would have been a better route, the same should be for the Medway service too.

Kent Thameslink trains should enter the core via E&C while Sussex Thameslink’s should use London Bridge in an ideal world
 
Mikey C

Mikey C

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NorthKent1989 said:
I never understood why the semi fasts weren’t kept to run via Greenwich? Greenwich I would have thought had far more going on that Lewisham and Blackheath to warrant the these services to call there.

In the 2000s this service called at Greenwich rather than Lewisham/Blackheath, and it was much faster, the timetable change in 2009 reverted them back to Lewisham
Click to expand...

Running via Lewisham does give a useful link between Lewisham/Blackheath and Woolwich though (no other trains used that route) and with the Greenwich Line going to a 6 an hour to Cannon Street, Greenwich was well served anyway
 
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NorthKent1989

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Mikey C said:
Running via Lewisham does give a useful link between Lewisham/Blackheath and Woolwich though (no other trains used that route) and wive the Greenwich Line going to a 6 an hour to Cannon Street, Greenwich was well served anyway
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True.

I often think that the Thameslink should have been routed via Lewisham anyways, since it would really replace the 2tph North Kent Line service rather than having it cut back to Dartford.
 
brad465

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NorthKent1989 said:
I always wondered why the 375’s never worked the CX To Gillingham fasts? It was certainly a long enough journey to warrant them being used rather than the networkers, it was neither mainline or metro really it was regional/inter-urban
Click to expand...

JonathanH said:
Were there ever fasts? Better described as semi-fast I suspect.

These services always appear to have been in the suburban bracket rather than main line, hence EPBs, not VEPs (although did the CAPs have a role on this route in the late 80s) which gave way to Networkers.

Not sure why 375s would have been ordered for the North Kent route when the Networker fleet was sufficient - peak Medway passengers can get to Cannon Street by 375s fast via Longfield so it's more about short distance travel.

Point remains that there wouldn't be enough 375s to operate this route.
Click to expand...
As well as that 375s purpose is long-distance, not Metro. The Networkers that used to run it have better acceleration and shorter dwell times compared to 375s in a Metro environment, so were more suitable for the calling pattern. The service also ran (and TL service now runs over), lines that never go above 70mph, so using 375s there is not as effective as prioritising them on mainline workings, where they almost all come across the 80-100mph stretches Networkers can't get to.
 
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bionic

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700007 said:
Can someone please remind me where the old SE Gillingham service called at after Lewisham towards Gillingham - been so long since I took this service I have already forgotten.
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Blackheath, Charlton, Woolwich Arsenal, Abbey Wood, Dartford, Greenhithe, Gravesend, Higham, Strood, Rochester, Chatham, Gillingham.

In the rush hour they used to throw in the odd additional curveball just to keep us on our toes but that was the standard off-peak pattern.
 
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NorthKent1989

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bionic said:
Blackheath, Charlton, Woolwich Arsenal, Abbey Wood, Dartford, Greenhithe, Gravesend, Higham, Strood, Rochester, Chatham, Gillingham.

In the rush hour they used to throw in the odd additional curveball just to keep us on our toes but that was the standard off-peak pattern.
Click to expand...

Didn’t these use to run via Greenwich in the morning rush hour? I recall there were a few until 2015 at least when used to live in Rochester.
 
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carriageline

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bionic said:
I think the point is that the Rainham service was a last minute tack-on after the Bermondsey diveunder was already under construction. Its purely to get trains from the core out of the way because they can't get them through Windmill Bridge and East Croydon as things stand. That's the thinking that drove the decision to run 700s to Rainham. Do not be misled into thinking that the service is actually there out of some altruistic desire on the part of GTR to benefit the good people along the southern bank of the Thames.
Click to expand...

I agree! The aim was to have “24 trains an hour” through the core, but you need somewhere for these trains to go! Most of the other infrastructure probably wouldn’t take that level of service

43074 said:
Quietly, purposefully and quote rightly forgotten about as operationally it will be very messy at Chislehurst Jns anyway, not to mention crossing to the Kent Fasts in the London Bridge/Blue Anchor area and the stabling situation shows no sign of resolving itself
Click to expand...

I believe they would cross to the Fast lines at Parks Bridge, then run through St Johns. Blue Anchor wouldn’t work. I believe the original plan was to use Edward Street (just outside New Cross) but that would be really disruptive too, and a pain operationally.
 
Horizon22

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NorthKent1989 said:
Any CrossRail extension won’t be going any further than Gravesend/Ebbsfleet and even then we’re probably looking at the late 2030’s before any work will get started at the earliest, there has been no mention of CrossRail extending any further to Medway, though that would be great.

Thameslink just needs to speed up the service, if it’s to remain long term, then once East Croydon is sorted who knows what will happen.

One thing for certain I don’t think this Maidstone East service will materialise, GTR Have been very quiet on that front, I think best case scenario, it’ll be quietly delayed to 2020/2021, worst case scenario; it’ll be quietly and purposefully forgotten about by GTR.
Click to expand...

Off-topic a tad but, it does appear that this has been delayed: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-49768040
 
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