Carrying heavy items for passengers

hooverboy · 19 Sep 2019

twpsaesneg said:
Firstly, I sympathise with the situation you find yourself in!

I would suggest that unless you have received formal training in manual handling by your employer you should not be carrying out manual handling tasks.

Also there are certain requirements for carrying items around the railway which you should be briefed on as well (I'm not sure if you're north or south of the Thames, but if you're in OLE land long items need to be carried horizontally for instance).

It sounds as if GTR have given you a very poor briefing on your roles and responsibilities but based on what I see other "customer services" type people doing around the UK I wouldn't expect your role to extend to more than giving passengers basic guidance on what trains are going where and which platform they are going from, and providing a "presence" on the platform.

There are some that will undoubtedly say that this is being snowflakey etc. but you need to look after your own health and wellbeing and cover your own back - for instance you could also be opening yourself up to allegations of theft or damage from unscrupulous people especially if you are on your own.

There's nothing unreasonable about asking for a written job description and appropriate training for your role.

I agree.
yes,health and safety is very finicky as a group, but there will be lots of loopholes here with regards to training,especially if you are agency work.

irrespective of who has hired you,the employer has a duty to ensure your wellbeing when performing duties, so appropriate training for the job should be on record.
stuff like pre-existing medical conditions which may affect your ability to carry out certain tasks should also be taken into account.

you say you are also over retirement age, then your employer should most certainly be making sure that you are not subjected to onerous or seriously demanding labour.
if you've said "look, sorry my dear, this is too much for me", then if it comes to a chat with the line manager then just be honest and say so.

They wouldn't have a leg to stand on if it came to dismissal/tribunal.A good manager would take note of your physical condition and may redeploy you to a less customer facing role instead.(frankly that doesn't require a written job description, just a bit of common sense)
..the woman in question might get a letter from the company saying,

"Dear Ms/Mrs x,We have noted your complaint,but mr abc has some medical ailments that we have been aware of. The health and safety of our employees is paramount, and in this instance we fully support his decision to decline further assistance to you.

We aplologise for any inconvenience caused..blah.blah...blah..

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Ivor · 19 Sep 2019

hooverboy said:
I agree.
yes,health and safety is very finicky as a group, but there will be lots of loopholes here with regards to training,especially if you are agency work.

irrespective of who has hired you,the employer has a duty to ensure your wellbeing when performing duties, so appropriate training for the job should be on record.
stuff like pre-existing medical conditions which may affect your ability to carry out certain tasks should also be taken into account.

you say you are also over retirement age, then your employer should most certainly be making sure that you are not subjected to onerous or seriously demanding labour.
if you've said "look, sorry my dear, this is too much for me", then if it comes to a chat with the line manager then just be honest and say so.

They wouldn't have a leg to stand on if it came to dismissal/tribunal.A good manager would take note of your physical condition and may redeploy you to a less customer facing role instead.(frankly that doesn't require a written job description, just a bit of common sense)
..the woman in question might get a letter from the company saying,

"Dear Ms/Mrs x,We have noted your complaint,but mr abc has some medical ailments that we have been aware of. The health and safety of our employees is paramount, and in this instance we fully support his decision to decline further assistance to you.

We aplologise for any inconvenience caused..blah.blah...blah..

Thanks for this insight, I’ve had great advice today via the site.

30907 · 19 Sep 2019

May I just clarify - when you carry this load over the footbridge, what is the woman doing? Is she helping?
(Speaking as one whose buggy-and-baggage days are long past, but who does remember how my wife nad I did it!)

Ivor · 19 Sep 2019

30907 said:
May I just clarify - when you carry this load over the footbridge, what is the woman doing? Is she helping?
(Speaking as one whose buggy-and-baggage days are long past, but who does remember how my wife nad I did it!)

She carries the toddler.

I’m a grandparent & since back in the day with my kids some of these buggy items have become huge with chunky wheels plus the full bags strapped to them it’s a small load!

Of course if I was still 25-30 it may not be a problem but I can’t even remember that far back, ok I can but you’ll know what I mean. Strength, stamina, balance etc however you look after yourself just isn’t the same.

bunnahabhain · 19 Sep 2019

I absolutely never lift a pushchair or buggy when it is heavily laden with children and shopping, it isn't worth the risk and I only have one back. I have refused before, and I'd happily back other staff if they refused as well. I am however happy to get the ramp out for somebody in such a situation but as always the rule of thumb should always be don't carry more than you can manage yourself.

Bletchleyite · 20 Sep 2019

Some parents are incredibly self-entitled, on the other hand.

In this case the parent has the option to walk for ten minutes on the road which allows her step-free access to and from the station. She should do that - that is the step-free access provided at the station for all users. She is presumably capable of it, she is just too bone-idle. My parents, when I was a baby, had only one car and my mother pushed my pram (an old style Silver Cross style one, not one of these easy-to-use modern ones) often for miles in order to visit family members who lived in the area e.g. grandparents - you couldn't take it on the bus back then, and our local station was accessed via long flights of stairs with no lift so that wasn't an option either.

There is no harm in politely asking for help - but the complaint is beyond vexatious and shows her to be a self-entitled, obnoxious individual. The refusal, assuming it was polite which I have no reason to believe it wasn't (the OP sounds reasonable enough), should be accepted gracefully.

I'd imagine another passenger may have also been willing to help if asked nicely. Personally, I always refuse impolite, self-entitled demands for help (whatever that help might be, unless it's a life-threatening emergency when one could understand the requestor being panicked), but if asked nicely I will put myself out for near enough anyone.

theironroad · 20 Sep 2019

Ivor said:
She carries the toddler.

I’m a grandparent & since back in the day with my kids some of these buggy items have become huge with chunky wheels plus the full bags strapped to them it’s a small load!

Of course if I was still 25-30 it may not be a problem but I can’t even remember that far back, ok I can but you’ll know what I mean. Strength, stamina, balance etc however you look after yourself just isn’t the same.

Sounds like I'm a fair bit younger, but I wouldn't be hauling all this gear over a bridge when there is a perfectly accessible alternative route. I will help with a suitcase if needed however.

The ZHC and email of work shifts sounds horrendous and it's the precarious nature of work and not wanting to upset the applecart that stops people from putting their head above the parapet when it comes to raising health and safety issues etc, in realtor the fact they may never get any more shifts as they are seen as a troublemaker.

As long as you're willing and happy to deploy the ramp to help the lady on and off the train, then all's good.

theironroad · 20 Sep 2019

Bantamzen said:
And to the OP, I trust you have filed a H&S report detailing the incident & what injuries you sustained? This might prove important should a complaint be made against you.

Good point. To the OP, the station manager responsible for the station will have an accident book and any injury should be entered into it as soon as possible.

Ivor · 20 Sep 2019

Bantamzen said:
What a condensing comment, the OP has already stated that they put their back out as a result & is only asking what they should do if the lady in question makes a formal complaint. There are a lot of rules, regulations and even laws determining what workers may be expected to do & what not to do in the workplace, and they are designed to try to stop the kind of injuries that the OP sustained. Personally I would have no problem carrying some excessive loads for myself, but I would never expect anyone else to do the same for me. The injury sustained thankfully seems to be minimal, but could easily have been career ending. Are you suggesting that the OP should have risked this to save a parent a few minutes walk?

And to the OP, I trust you have filed a H&S report detailing the incident & what injuries you sustained? This might prove important should a complaint be made against you.

No I haven’t done a report, in fairness didn’t realise they exist plus without sounding ‘wimpish’ don’t want to ‘rock the boat’

I’m not on my last legs as such (well I hope not) & really will pull out all the stops to complete the customer service position fully but two & a half weeks Mon-Fri helping this lady since rostered at this station I hold my hands up & got to say “I ain’t up to it” equally I’m sure a younger staff member would also puff a bit with this buggy & bags with 60 steps in total up/down over the footbridge.

Thanks for the tip-off re H&S paperwork.

Not had any come back yet so maybe she was just sounding off, haven’t been there since as been working at another station but back there from Monday.

Ivor · 20 Sep 2019

theironroad said:
Good point. To the OP, the station manager responsible for the station will have an accident book and any injury should be entered into it as soon as possible.

Thanks, will do.

Bantamzen · 20 Sep 2019

Ivor said:
No I haven’t done a report, in fairness didn’t realise they exist plus without sounding ‘wimpish’ don’t want to ‘rock the boat’

I’m not on my last legs as such (well I hope not) & really will pull out all the stops to complete the customer service position fully but two & a half weeks Mon-Fri helping this lady since rostered at this station I hold my hands up & got to say “I ain’t up to it” equally I’m sure a younger staff member would also puff a bit with this buggy & bags with 60 steps in total up/down over the footbridge.

Thanks for the tip-off re H&S paperwork.

Not had any come back yet so maybe she was just sounding off, haven’t been there since as been working at another station but back there from Monday.

There's nothing whimpish about it, and you certainly should not feel like you are rocking the boat. Employers have a duty of care, and need to understand everything that happens to help advise and protect. And in your case a report may help if any complaint is made, although hopefully the lady in question chose not to take it forward.

Taunton · 20 Sep 2019

Well I wonder why anyone would take a job they had an issue with.

I know that the platform staff have worked through various job titles in recent years, we have had Station Assistant, Railman (scrubbed as being gender-specific), etc. But a generation back, and from then all the way back through history, the grade was known as Porter. Nothing disparaging about that title. But what does a Porter do? Among other assistance rendered to customers, they carry things. But we seem to be saying here that although we want the job, we don't want its responsibilities.

Now if you feel I am being harsh here, in my youth there was an older Porter at Taunton station. Only one arm - if you must know he lost the other one in the landings at Anzio in 1944. Anyone remember him? He'd been a Porter before the war too, and was welcomed back. He did just about anything around the station, including handling luggage (one at a time). Now if anyone could say they "shouldn't have to", it was him, first. But he never did.

bunnahabhain · 20 Sep 2019

Taunton said:
Well I wonder why anyone would take a job they had an issue with.

I know that the platform staff have worked through various job titles in recent years, we have had Station Assistant, Railman (scrubbed as being gender-specific), etc. But a generation back, and from then all the way back through history, the grade was known as Porter. Nothing disparaging about that title. But what does a Porter do? Among other assistance rendered to customers, they carry things. But we seem to be saying here that although we want the job, we don't want its responsibilities.

Now if you feel I am being harsh here, in my youth there was an older Porter at Taunton station. Only one arm - if you must know he lost the other one in the landings at Anzio in 1944. Anyone remember him? He'd been a Porter before the war too, and was welcomed back. He did just about anything around the station, including handling luggage (one at a time). Now if anyone could say they "shouldn't have to", it was him, first. But he never did.

the railway did away with porters as a cost saving measure and the role hasn't been in existence in the UK for quite some years now. The only porters I have seen in living memory who aren't dressing up on preserved lines were at Milano Centrale, and you had to pay them a few euros to cart your luggage around the station.

With your chap from Taunton, its very difficult to compare somebody with a missing arm to, for example, me with scoliosis. As the popular sticker for toilets says, 'Not every disability is visible'. You shouldn't be judging somebodies ability or not on how many limbs they have, and suggesting somebody with more limbs must surely be capable. Its quite an obnoxious suggestion.

Darandio · 20 Sep 2019

Taunton said:
Well I wonder why anyone would take a job they had an issue with.

I don't think they really have an issue. What they have is someone placing completely unreasonable demands on them when an alternative provision has already been provided for them.

Taunton said:
I know that the platform staff have worked through various job titles in recent years, we have had Station Assistant, Railman (scrubbed as being gender-specific), etc. But a generation back, and from then all the way back through history, the grade was known as Porter. Nothing disparaging about that title. But what does a Porter do? Among other assistance rendered to customers, they carry things. But we seem to be saying here that although we want the job, we don't want its responsibilities.

Now if you feel I am being harsh here, in my youth there was an older Porter at Taunton station. Only one arm - if you must know he lost the other one in the landings at Anzio in 1944. Anyone remember him? He'd been a Porter before the war too, and was welcomed back. He did just about anything around the station, including handling luggage (one at a time). Now if anyone could say they "shouldn't have to", it was him, first. But he never did.

I'm really not sure of the relevance of a wartime Porter with one arm, @bunnahabhain sums up my thoughts on it fairly well.

Wychwood93 · 20 Sep 2019

bunnahabhain said:
the railway did away with porters as a cost saving measure and the role hasn't been in existence in the UK for quite some years now. The only porters I have seen in living memory who aren't dressing up on preserved lines were at Milano Centrale, and you had to pay them a few euros to cart your luggage around the station.

With your chap from Taunton, its very difficult to compare somebody with a missing arm to, for example, me with scoliosis. As the popular sticker for toilets says, 'Not every disability is visible'. You shouldn't be judging somebodies ability or not on how many limbs they have, and suggesting somebody with more limbs must surely be capable. Its quite an obnoxious suggestion.

I agree with your comments - the OP, #1, said a 'customer service role' - this, at least to me, means helping and advising - not lugging stuff around for a younger person. I am sure he would have helped if possible. I am of a possibly similar age and would help if I felt up to it. When myself and 'Mrs. me' had the children things were a lot lighter and pushchairs (shock and horror moment! - could actually be folded up!). We often carried more, even then, than we could really cope with - but managed to get on and do it without help. Do not start me off with young mums, buggys, not folding and buses!

trainophile · 20 Sep 2019

I wonder what her attitude would be if a female "passenger assistant" was on duty one day. She would presumably just have to take the alternative option then.

ComUtoR · 20 Sep 2019

trainophile said:
I wonder what her attitude would be if a female "passenger assistant" was on duty one day.

A woman ! in the workplace !!! Not in my youth I'm afraid. God forbid a woman would turn up, but if she did, she should go get her supervisor.

Taunton · 20 Sep 2019

trainophile said:
I wonder what her attitude would be if a female "passenger assistant" was on duty one day. She would presumably just have to take the alternative option then.

That in itself does not represent current reality. One notices how other women are often the first to offer assistance to those having difficulty manoeuvring their pushchairs.

AlterEgo · 20 Sep 2019

Taunton said:
Well I wonder why anyone would take a job they had an issue with.

Who has an issue with their job in this thread?

I know that the platform staff have worked through various job titles in recent years, we have had Station Assistant, Railman (scrubbed as being gender-specific), etc. But a generation back, and from then all the way back through history, the grade was known as Porter. Nothing disparaging about that title. But what does a Porter do? Among other assistance rendered to customers, they carry things. But we seem to be saying here that although we want the job, we don't want its responsibilities.

Porters don't exist any more.

Now if you feel I am being harsh here, in my youth there was an older Porter at Taunton station. Only one arm - if you must know he lost the other one in the landings at Anzio in 1944. Anyone remember him? He'd been a Porter before the war too, and was welcomed back. He did just about anything around the station, including handling luggage (one at a time). Now if anyone could say they "shouldn't have to", it was him, first. But he never did.

Nice story, but it has nothing to do with the thread.

fishtastic · 21 Sep 2019

Personally if you did get pulled up over this there's 2 angles, your health and safety, and the customer's. Many people have covered the first, as far as the second is concerned would you be making your employer liable if you drop the buggy etc. on the stairs, damaged her property or injured her or her children doing something you probably shouldn't be doing....

cambsy · 21 Sep 2019

I dont work on the railways, but in my job have to deal with luggage etc, so ill help lift luggage if of reasonable size and weight, but if one of those dreadful half the size of a house wheeled suitcases, ill give a hand but expect the customer to do most of the lifting as I’m not putting my back out, as who pay my wage etc if I’m off work for weeks, I think one should only take luggage etc that you can lift yourself, not expect others to injure themselves lifting etc, I think the poster was absolutely right to say no, I’d have helped but expected her to do a large degree of the lifting, she took the pram so she should be prepared to deal with it and do any lifting necessary, if she was struggling of course offer help, but if she demanded etc then I’d say ill help a bit, I’d definitely not do it all for her.

GrimShady · 21 Sep 2019

It's quite simple. You made a dynamic risk assessment where the risk of you causing injury to yourself was to high compared to alternative which was risk free.

Also do they have a standard risk assessment for lifting heavy prams over the footbridge? I very much doubt it in which case I wouldn't worry.

They can't argue with that.

Bantamzen · 21 Sep 2019

Taunton said:
Well I wonder why anyone would take a job they had an issue with.

I know that the platform staff have worked through various job titles in recent years, we have had Station Assistant, Railman (scrubbed as being gender-specific), etc. But a generation back, and from then all the way back through history, the grade was known as Porter. Nothing disparaging about that title. But what does a Porter do? Among other assistance rendered to customers, they carry things. But we seem to be saying here that although we want the job, we don't want its responsibilities.

Now if you feel I am being harsh here, in my youth there was an older Porter at Taunton station. Only one arm - if you must know he lost the other one in the landings at Anzio in 1944. Anyone remember him? He'd been a Porter before the war too, and was welcomed back. He did just about anything around the station, including handling luggage (one at a time). Now if anyone could say they "shouldn't have to", it was him, first. But he never did.

Interesting story, but I'm not sure what it adds to the discussion. Under Health & Safety regulations, both employer and employee have responsibility for safety. If an employee finds themselves being over-exerted to the point of injury, then they have a responsibility to make their employer aware, just as an employer would have to make an employee aware & sufficiently train them when asking for them to undertake work that has an increased risk of injury.

And before any hits the "Health & Safety gone mad button", there are very good reasons for these regs. Prior to them, people often sustained life changing injuries in the workplace, often rendering them unable to work again & as a result unable to sustain their families. In today's world no-one ought to be expected to suffer such injuries simply to convenience someone else. The worst case for the lady asking for the OP to carry her buggy was a few minutes more walking, the worst case scenario for the OP was to permanently damage their back, be unable to work again, and perhaps suffer a lifetime of pain.

GrimShady said:
It's quite simple. You made a dynamic risk assessment where the risk of you causing injury to yourself was to high compared to alternative which was risk free.

Also do they have a standard risk assessment for lifting heavy prams over the footbridge? I very much doubt it in which case I wouldn't worry.

They can't argue with that.

Is the correct answer!

142blue · 21 Sep 2019

As a railway employee and also a Health and Safety Rep I refer you to the HSE advice

http://www.hse.gov.uk/msd/manualhandling.htm

I would also request to examine the relevent company risk assessment on manual handling with the TOC and I ask what training you are given in regard to lifting and carrying as part of any recruitment and training and how it compares to that provided by the TOC to its own staff

For those whom ask regards what happens when there are no lifts we have a contingency plan which is to send to another location and back again should this happen.

A read of the 1999 Management of Health and Safety at Work Act could also be favourable, easier reading than the 1974 legislation.

Does your location have a Safety Rep. Could you find out?

al78 · 21 Sep 2019

hooverboy said:
They wouldn't have a leg to stand on if it came to dismissal/tribunal.A good manager would take note of your physical condition and may redeploy you to a less customer facing role instead.(frankly that doesn't require a written job description, just a bit of common sense)
..the woman in question might get a letter from the company saying,

"Dear Ms/Mrs x,We have noted your complaint,but mr abc has some medical ailments that we have been aware of. The health and safety of our employees is paramount, and in this instance we fully support his decision to decline further assistance to you.

We aplologise for any inconvenience caused..blah.blah...blah..

It wouldn't suprise me if the manmagement followed up with a letter to the employee saying something along the lines of "your medical ailments mean you are unfit for the job, you're fired". Plenty of nasty people in authority who would try that.

Ivor · 21 Sep 2019

142blue said:
As a railway employee and also a Health and Safety Rep I refer you to the HSE advice

http://www.hse.gov.uk/msd/manualhandling.htm

I would also request to examine the relevent company risk assessment on manual handling with the TOC and I ask what training you are given in regard to lifting and carrying as part of any recruitment and training and how it compares to that provided by the TOC to its own staff

For those whom ask regards what happens when there are no lifts we have a contingency plan which is to send to another location and back again should this happen.

A read of the 1999 Management of Health and Safety at Work Act could also be favourable, easier reading than the 1974 legislation.

Does your location have a Safety Rep. Could you find out?

Training for lifting, safety assessments re helping passengers has been zero.

Safety rep I don’t know. GTR staff would have access to all information but as agency how can I say.....we don’t cause problems as we want to hang on to any work as & when & if we receive it.

As agency staff we have little information given to us & many of us are cautious as they have a two strikes & you're out policy & some staff have even received a strike for it being noticed that someone has had a hood on their winter coat (attached but not up) which is a no no regards uniform but we buy our own uniform based on their requirements, white shirts, black trousers, safety boots, black winter attire.....they supply a hi viz & a lanyard. Not complaining about that as we are aware of ‘their terms’ when we sign up.

Ivor · 21 Sep 2019

al78 said:
It wouldn't suprise me if the manmagement followed up with a letter to the employee saying something along the lines of "your medical ailments mean you are unfit for the job, you're fired". Plenty of nasty people in authority who would try that.

I know what you mean, in my case I don’t have medical ailments other than I’m an older guy of pensionable age but as I replied to another that even someone half my age would like me get the task done & with a higher level of strength at that age would help yes but I’m convinced upon completion their breathing & heart rate would be quite raised only due to the awkward size & weight with attached bags.

With these ‘huge’ contraptions nowadays which are great for keeping the child comfortable but gone are the days you can even fold them as they are a complete unit.

If you work directly for a TOC I’m sure they are not perfect as no company is but I’ve only encountered agency & zero hour contracts the last couple of years & I've had some great feedback here but to all the ladies & gents in the industry as you reach a similar age if you have to work on please don’t get involved in the world of zero hour contracts & ‘subbed out agency work’

Stigy · 21 Sep 2019

Ianno87 said:
It's safer to leave the child in the pushchair (if they are settled); avoids the hazard of the 'gap'; that can be huge to a 3 year old's little legs. You just go on forwards and off backwards.

However, as someone who takes a double pram with luggage on a train from time to time, I do not travel with any expectation of staff carrying my stuff for me (unless they happen to offer off their own initiative). I expect to take longer routes is necessary, and plan my journey accordingly.

The only exception may be if a lift etc. is out of service, so I'm only able to use a staircase as a result.

Agreed about the keeping children in the pushchairs. However, they should always be removed before staff help carry the pushchairs up any stairs.

It always strikes me as strange how a lot of people insist on boarding and alighting forwards when common sense surely says that alighting backwards is easier? I guess common sense isn’t so common.

MDB1images · 21 Sep 2019

Ivor said:
Thanks, your first paragraph gives a good pointer.

I’m not afraid to get ‘stuck in’ but got to hold my hands up to say this item plus the bags with it I have found a struggle.

The right to refuse is a difficult area as I suppose all of us that want to ‘do our job’ but like anything limitations have to kick in.

If you find it a struggle you shouldn't be doing it.
You are putting yourself at risk which no TOC would allow/accept.
Is there a station/area manager you can chat to as it's something they need making aware of if this passenger is a regular.

Bantamzen · 21 Sep 2019

al78 said:
It wouldn't suprise me if the manmagement followed up with a letter to the employee saying something along the lines of "your medical ailments mean you are unfit for the job, you're fired". Plenty of nasty people in authority who would try that.

They could try it, but if done on the basis on someone getting injured at work they could find themselves in very hot water.

Carrying heavy items for passengers

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