some bloke
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Or at least a potential reason, and hopefully they'd consider it bad PR!
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Failure to Pay Penalty Charge
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Haywain
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And it wasn't their publicity to start with - it was a local MP and a local newspaper. There isn't even a comment from the TOC.
Response from Great Northern Twitter:
“Firstly you will receive a reminder letter advising you of the money that you owe us. You can appeal against a penalty fare in writing or online within 21 days starting the day after the issue date.Written appeals should be sent to the address shown on the notice you were given.”
“Firstly you will receive a reminder letter advising you of the money that you owe us. You can appeal against a penalty fare in writing or online within 21 days starting the day after the issue date.Written appeals should be sent to the address shown on the notice you were given.”
some bloke
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Sounds good. Can they tell you how to pay now and make it go away?
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
But you don't have a Penalty Fare - you refused to pay it. Am I missing something?
I’ve tried to explain it to them but I don’t quite think they understand. If I think the first thing they'll send is a bill, I’m happy to wait for that and pay it when it arrives
That’s what I thought too. Heard this both on the phone and in writing from their customer service. Their FAQ says they send a letter with the amount owed to them first
some bloke
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Good - I'm glad if you can relax now.
AmicableMan
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Exactly this, If you refuse to pay then the person you're speaking to will have no option but to complete a witness statement. Hence asking for your details and asking you questions about your journey. It's likely the first letter you will receive will be an "Intention to Prosecute" letter where you be given the opportunity to give your version of events on the day.
That's what I thought (and still have at the back of my mind). However on their FAQ, it says they send a letter reminding you of the money you owe. I also heard this on the phone to them and have it in writing in my Twitter communications with them.
AmicableMan
Member
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Where it states "If you refuse to pay a penalty fare" I appreciate that this could probably be clearer, but I would take that as ONCE ISSUED a penalty fare and then refuse to pay. In these circumstances it appears a penalty fare was not issued, there was no amount discussed at the time therefore how can they remind you?
That makes sense, I wish they'd have explained this process and why we were being charged £20, there was no obvious signage anywhere either. I guess I'll have to wait for their correspondence and reply with my mitigation etc. and plead with them to settle out of court. I can't believe they'd try and prosecute many festival-goers in this position over what was a £3.90 fare. Do you think they'll settle out of court?
AmicableMan
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Thameslink have shown previous form for being one of the companies that does settle cases, the signage regarding being charged the £20.00 are the bright yellow posters at all of their stations. It would be similar to the attached image.
Attachments
I wouldn't have seen those at either NSG or Hatfield. We didn't think we were travelling without tickets! You live and learn! Thanks for your help. Do you know the charges against you they pursue and whether they bring a criminal record?
AmicableMan
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It's entirely the choice of the people who bring the prosecution to which Byelaw or Regulation of Railways Act offence they summons you for. Byelaws being the more lenient offences, but carry to "Intent" aspect to them, all the railway would have to prove it that upon inspection, you could not produce a valid ticket.
Well, the big day has arrived, rather glad I extended my post forwarding. Got the Notice of Intention to Prosecute letter through dated from the 12th. They also spelt my name wrong on the letter...
I'm currently drafting my letter to respond to them. I'll post it in here shortly if anyone could give me some advice?
I'm currently drafting my letter to respond to them. I'll post it in here shortly if anyone could give me some advice?
Haywain
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Your letter is, I’m afraid to say, far too long. You really don’t want the person reading it to get bored.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Far too long, too much waffle. It needs a concise explanation- "I mistakenly believed Hatfield accepted Contactless and mistakenly believed the Penalty Fare was issued unfairly"- and an apology.
Indeed. I stopped reading about half way through the third paragraph...
Here's my updated letter:
Dear Sir/Madam,
I am writing in response to receiving a Notice of Intention to Prosecute Letter on 12/09/2019, Reference: XXXX.
Please note that my name is <NAME>, not <INCORRECT> as your correspondence reads.
On 26/05/2019, I travelled from New Southgate (NSG) to Hatfield on the 10:52 service in order to attend “Slam Dunk Festival'. On reaching the platform at New Southgate, I used Contactless to start the journey. Upon reaching Hatfield, the station was very busy as lots of festival-goers had arrived to attend said festival. Upon attempting to ’tap out' so at the Hatfield barriers, the gate did not open and I was informed that I must pay £20 to exit through the gate. I mistakenly believed that Hatfield accepted Contactless due to it’s proximity to London and mistakenly believed the Penalty Fare was issued unfairly. I thought I had already paid via the Contactless machines (I was charged the full day fare from Transport for London on this date as my TfL journey from NSG was not terminated).
The member of staff explaining the situation was dealing with multiple people in the same position as I was, and in the large crowds of people being denied access through the gates, raised noise levels and commotion, communication broke down and the information was not relayed clearly to me (another member of the party I was with was told this information and subsequently paid the fine).
This was a clear error of judgement on my behalf and refusing to pay the Penalty Fare was a regrettable course of events that I am extremely remorseful for. As an IT contractor, I would need to disclose a criminal record to my employer and this may result in me losing my job. I fully understand your motivation to take this to court however I implore you to reconsider, I have never been charged with any criminal offence before and a criminal conviction would negatively affect my career prospects.
It was never my intention to deny The Great Northern any fare, I genuinely believed I had paid for my fare when I used my Contactless card at New Southgate station to start my journey, and again when I walked up to the barriers at Hatfield station and placed my card on the Contactless reader. I am an infrequent traveller to London, and I had never travelled on that line or between those stations before and believed that due to it's proximity to London, I would be able to use my contactless card to complete my journey when I arrived in Hatfield. I regrettably refused to pay the Penalty Fare, as I genuinely believed I had paid for my journey, for which I send my sincerest apologies. When asked if I had set out to deliberately avoid paying my fare I replied that I had not. This was a genuine misunderstanding and I will endeavor to fully research the rules and regulations regarding travel between my destinations in the future.
I would like to apologise unreservedly, and settle this matter if I may. I am prepared to offer you the full single fare for my journey from New Southgate to Hatfield, the Penalty Fare, plus any reasonable costs incurred in pursuing your claim against me.
Since this incident, I have moved address. My mail is being forwarded, but please send further correspondence to:
<NEW ADDRESS>
Yours faithfully,
<NAME>
I am writing in response to receiving a Notice of Intention to Prosecute Letter on 12/09/2019, Reference: XXXX.
Please note that my name is <NAME>, not <INCORRECT> as your correspondence reads.
On 26/05/2019, I travelled from New Southgate (NSG) to Hatfield on the 10:52 service in order to attend “Slam Dunk Festival'. On reaching the platform at New Southgate, I used Contactless to start the journey. Upon reaching Hatfield, the station was very busy as lots of festival-goers had arrived to attend said festival. Upon attempting to ’tap out' so at the Hatfield barriers, the gate did not open and I was informed that I must pay £20 to exit through the gate. I mistakenly believed that Hatfield accepted Contactless due to it’s proximity to London and mistakenly believed the Penalty Fare was issued unfairly. I thought I had already paid via the Contactless machines (I was charged the full day fare from Transport for London on this date as my TfL journey from NSG was not terminated).
The member of staff explaining the situation was dealing with multiple people in the same position as I was, and in the large crowds of people being denied access through the gates, raised noise levels and commotion, communication broke down and the information was not relayed clearly to me (another member of the party I was with was told this information and subsequently paid the fine).
This was a clear error of judgement on my behalf and refusing to pay the Penalty Fare was a regrettable course of events that I am extremely remorseful for. As an IT contractor, I would need to disclose a criminal record to my employer and this may result in me losing my job. I fully understand your motivation to take this to court however I implore you to reconsider, I have never been charged with any criminal offence before and a criminal conviction would negatively affect my career prospects.
It was never my intention to deny The Great Northern any fare, I genuinely believed I had paid for my fare when I used my Contactless card at New Southgate station to start my journey, and again when I walked up to the barriers at Hatfield station and placed my card on the Contactless reader. I am an infrequent traveller to London, and I had never travelled on that line or between those stations before and believed that due to it's proximity to London, I would be able to use my contactless card to complete my journey when I arrived in Hatfield. I regrettably refused to pay the Penalty Fare, as I genuinely believed I had paid for my journey, for which I send my sincerest apologies. When asked if I had set out to deliberately avoid paying my fare I replied that I had not. This was a genuine misunderstanding and I will endeavor to fully research the rules and regulations regarding travel between my destinations in the future.
I would like to apologise unreservedly, and settle this matter if I may. I am prepared to offer you the full single fare for my journey from New Southgate to Hatfield, the Penalty Fare, plus any reasonable costs incurred in pursuing your claim against me.
Since this incident, I have moved address. My mail is being forwarded, but please send further correspondence to:
<NEW ADDRESS>
Yours faithfully,
<NAME>
Haywain
Veteran Member
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As above, still far too long. About half that, or even a bit less, should be the target. Look at other prosecution threads on the forum and you should find a succinct letter that can form the basis of what you now need. The target of your letter have no interest in why you were at Hatfield or how your future could be affected, so most of that can go.
Llanigraham
On Moderation
Dear Sir/Madam,
I am writing in response to receiving a Notice of Intention to Prosecute Letter on 12/09/2019, Reference: XXXX.
Please note that my name is <NAME>, not <INCORRECT> as your correspondence reads.
On 26/05/2019, I travelled from New Southgate (NSG) to Hatfield on the 10:52 service in order to attend “Slam Dunk Festival'. On reaching the platform at New Southgate, I used Contactless to start the journey. Upon reaching Hatfield, the station was very busy Upon attempting to ’tap out' so at the Hatfield barriers, the gate did not open and I was informed that I must pay £20 to exit through the gate. I mistakenly believed that Hatfield accepted Contactless due to it’s proximity to London and mistakenly believed the Penalty Fare was issued unfairly. I thought I had already paid via the Contactless machines (I was charged the full day fare from Transport for London on this date as my TfL journey from NSG was not terminated).
This was a clear error of judgement on my behalf and refusing to pay the Penalty Fare was a regrettable course of events that I am extremely remorseful for. I fully understand your motivation to take this to court however I implore you to reconsider, I have never been charged with any criminal offence before and a criminal conviction would negatively affect my career prospects.
I am an infrequent traveller to London, and I had never travelled on that line or between those stations before and believed that due to it's proximity to London, I would be able to use my contactless card to complete my journey when I arrived in Hatfield. I regrettably refused to pay the Penalty Fare, as I genuinely believed I had paid for my journey, for which I send my sincerest apologies.
I would like to apologise unreservedly, and settle this matter if I may. I am prepared to offer you the full single fare for my journey from New Southgate to Hatfield, the Penalty Fare, plus any reasonable costs incurred in pursuing your claim against me.
Since this incident, I have moved address. My mail is being forwarded, but please send further correspondence to:
<NEW ADDRESS>
Yours faithfully,
<NAME>
I am writing in response to receiving a Notice of Intention to Prosecute Letter on 12/09/2019, Reference: XXXX.
Please note that my name is <NAME>, not <INCORRECT> as your correspondence reads.
On 26/05/2019, I travelled from New Southgate (NSG) to Hatfield on the 10:52 service in order to attend “Slam Dunk Festival'. On reaching the platform at New Southgate, I used Contactless to start the journey. Upon reaching Hatfield, the station was very busy Upon attempting to ’tap out' so at the Hatfield barriers, the gate did not open and I was informed that I must pay £20 to exit through the gate. I mistakenly believed that Hatfield accepted Contactless due to it’s proximity to London and mistakenly believed the Penalty Fare was issued unfairly. I thought I had already paid via the Contactless machines (I was charged the full day fare from Transport for London on this date as my TfL journey from NSG was not terminated).
This was a clear error of judgement on my behalf and refusing to pay the Penalty Fare was a regrettable course of events that I am extremely remorseful for. I fully understand your motivation to take this to court however I implore you to reconsider, I have never been charged with any criminal offence before and a criminal conviction would negatively affect my career prospects.
I am an infrequent traveller to London, and I had never travelled on that line or between those stations before and believed that due to it's proximity to London, I would be able to use my contactless card to complete my journey when I arrived in Hatfield. I regrettably refused to pay the Penalty Fare, as I genuinely believed I had paid for my journey, for which I send my sincerest apologies.
I would like to apologise unreservedly, and settle this matter if I may. I am prepared to offer you the full single fare for my journey from New Southgate to Hatfield, the Penalty Fare, plus any reasonable costs incurred in pursuing your claim against me.
Since this incident, I have moved address. My mail is being forwarded, but please send further correspondence to:
<NEW ADDRESS>
Yours faithfully,
<NAME>
Would the forum experts accept the above?
Start by deleting the quoted text and you're much closer to the appropriate length.
Haywain
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 3 Feb 2013
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- 15,170
Still too long for my liking. As I said above too much of what they (the TOC) don’t want to know. A couple of paragraphs worth could be taken out without any negative effect.
I need to send the letter off tomorrow, this is the closest I've got:
Dear Sir/Madam,
I am writing in response to receiving a Notice of Intention to Prosecute Letter on 12/09/2019, Reference: XXXX.
Please note that my name is <NAME>, not <INCORRECT> as your correspondence reads.
On 26/05/2019, I travelled from New Southgate (NSG) to Hatfield on the 10:52 service in order to attend “Slam Dunk Festival'. On reaching the platform at New Southgate, I used Contactless to start the journey. Upon reaching Hatfield, the station was very busy and I attempted to ’tap out' at the Hatfield barriers. The barriers did not open and I was informed that I must pay £20 to exit through the gate. I mistakenly believed that Hatfield accepted Contactless and mistakenly believed the Penalty Fare was issued unfairly. I thought I had already paid via the Contactless machines (I was charged the full day fare from Transport for London on this date as my TfL journey from NSG was not terminated).
This was a clear error of judgement on my behalf and refusing to pay the Penalty Fare was a regrettable course of events that I am extremely remorseful for. I am an infrequent traveller to London, had never travelled on that line or between those stations before and believed that due to it's proximity to London, I would be able to use my Contactless card to complete my journey when I arrived in Hatfield. I regrettably refused to pay the Penalty Fare, as I genuinely believed I had paid for my journey, for which I send my sincerest apologies.
I would like to apologise unreservedly, and settle this matter if I may. I am prepared to offer you the full single fare for my journey from New Southgate to Hatfield, the Penalty Fare, plus any reasonable costs incurred in pursuing your claim against me.
Since this incident, I have moved address. My mail is being forwarded, but please send further correspondence to:
<NEW ADDRESS>
Yours faithfully,
<NAME>
Dear Sir/Madam,
I am writing in response to receiving a Notice of Intention to Prosecute Letter on 12/09/2019, Reference: XXXX.
Please note that my name is <NAME>, not <INCORRECT> as your correspondence reads.
On 26/05/2019, I travelled from New Southgate (NSG) to Hatfield on the 10:52 service in order to attend “Slam Dunk Festival'. On reaching the platform at New Southgate, I used Contactless to start the journey. Upon reaching Hatfield, the station was very busy and I attempted to ’tap out' at the Hatfield barriers. The barriers did not open and I was informed that I must pay £20 to exit through the gate. I mistakenly believed that Hatfield accepted Contactless and mistakenly believed the Penalty Fare was issued unfairly. I thought I had already paid via the Contactless machines (I was charged the full day fare from Transport for London on this date as my TfL journey from NSG was not terminated).
This was a clear error of judgement on my behalf and refusing to pay the Penalty Fare was a regrettable course of events that I am extremely remorseful for. I am an infrequent traveller to London, had never travelled on that line or between those stations before and believed that due to it's proximity to London, I would be able to use my Contactless card to complete my journey when I arrived in Hatfield. I regrettably refused to pay the Penalty Fare, as I genuinely believed I had paid for my journey, for which I send my sincerest apologies.
I would like to apologise unreservedly, and settle this matter if I may. I am prepared to offer you the full single fare for my journey from New Southgate to Hatfield, the Penalty Fare, plus any reasonable costs incurred in pursuing your claim against me.
Since this incident, I have moved address. My mail is being forwarded, but please send further correspondence to:
<NEW ADDRESS>
Yours faithfully,
<NAME>
I've cut out what I consider to be 'fluff' whilst leaving the important stuff in there.
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