Could battery technology be used on Heritage Lines?

route:oxford · 22 Sep 2019

Does a heritage steam loco or heritage diesel loco have to be powered by a fossil fuel for a family to enjoy an "authentic" day out on a preserved line?

Looking at the thread concerning the abandoned Class 26s at Strathspey, I couldn't help but wonder if one would be better off being stripped and converted to battery operation. It basically needs to be able to do, say, 40 miles on a single charge for a round trip + spare capacity.

Likewise, we've all seen the pictures of the steam locos powered by overhead lines in Switzerland during WW2. Could a tender be built to accommodate a Tesla array to power electric heaters in a steam locomotive

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Flying Phil · 22 Sep 2019

Whilst I'm sure that existing battery technology is more than capable of operating most services on most preserved railway lines I think that the main attraction is the steam powered locomotive and increasingly the heritage diesel.
However, as the climate change lobby is getting increasingly strident and CO2 emissions an obvious target, we become a visible challenge to a certain sector of the public. The fact that there are probably more CO2 emissions from a weekend's premier league football matches with spectators than a year's heritage steam operations is conveniently ignored.
So an immersion heater element in the boiler and batteries in a tender or side tank, recharged by a solar cell array/wind turbine during the week may prove an environmentally friendly compromise??

NSEFAN · 22 Sep 2019

Are the CO2 contributions from heritage operations even significant in the grand scheme of things? I would have thought that regular mainline diesels, private car use, road freight and heavy industry are far, far worse offenders than steam traction.

That said, boosted battery capacity on an MLV would be interesting for fully electric operation of old Southern region EMUs (and perhaps variations thereof for former overhead AC units?) This is rather niche, but as electric cars become ubiquitous then second hand batteries might become quite cheap?

Bevan Price · 22 Sep 2019

The vast majority of visitors to heritage railway are "general public" rather than dedicated railway enthusiasts, and one of the main attractions is trains worked by steam locomotives. Take away "steam", and they would lose most of the visitors whose money keeps them in operation.....

UP13 · 22 Sep 2019

Very very long term we have to consider what to do once there is no oil or coal...

Bletchleyite · 23 Sep 2019

UP13 said:
Very very long term we have to consider what to do once there is no oil or coal...

Used chip fat?

Journeyman · 23 Sep 2019

The Heritage Railway Association has done quite a lot of research on this. The majority of coal use in this country at the moment is in the industrial sector, and the heritage railway sector's carbon emissions are very small in the grand scheme of things. They're small enough to be offset by things like tree-planting and energy efficiency measures taken elsewhere.

Given the economic benefit of heritage railways in the areas where they operate, there's a strong argument for allowing dispensations to continue burning coal, and it's getting discussed at fairly high levels within government.

trebor79 · 23 Sep 2019

The early Siemens electric loco at the North Tyneside Steam Railway has been battery operated for the past 20 years or so. The batteries (lead acid) are hidden in one of the waggons it trundles around with.
I don't think batteries powering an immersion heater is feasible. Remember steam locos are only about 6% efficient. So you need an enormous battery, far bigger than a battery powered EMU would require (and even they don't properly exist yet). The batteries would probably end up costing more than the loco overhaul cost. Plus all the fun of firing would be lost.

The Lad · 23 Sep 2019

I have wondered if the guts from a Motor Luggage Van could be used to provide part of the power to push a set around allowing the use of smaller loco's and possibly recovering some of the energy otherwise wasted in braking.

Alanko · 23 Sep 2019

If you converted one of Strathspey's defunct 26s to electric/hydrogen power then you would need to fit some sort of PA system to reproduce the lopsided clatter of a Sulzer engine.

route:oxford said:
Does a heritage steam loco or heritage diesel loco have to be powered by a fossil fuel for a family to enjoy an "authentic" day out on a preserved line?

The Strathspey railway is surrounded by miles of low quality quick-grown evergreen forest. Poor from an ecological standpoint (they tend to result in poor quality, acidic soil and the crowns are usually so crowded in that other species are shaded out on the forest floor). Could a Black 5 be converted to run on some form of fortified wood pellets? You would be releasing carbon trapped over the last ~40 years, rather than releasing 'virgin' carbon coal.

Kingspanner · 23 Sep 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Used chip fat?

Whilst initially skeptical, I'm now imagining chip fat being extruded at high pressure through a nozzle and sprayed through the firebox doors by a fireman with the slipperiest job on the railway.
Ah, the romance of steam...

Alanko · 23 Sep 2019

Wasn't used cooking oil used on a narrow gauge railway somewhere in England, with multiple complaints lodged about the resulting smell?

SquireBev · 23 Sep 2019

Alanko said:
Wasn't used cooking oil used on a narrow gauge railway somewhere in England, with multiple complaints lodged about the resulting smell?

That does ring a bell - Shropshire & Montgomeryshire Railway maybe?

Flying Phil · 23 Sep 2019

trebor79 said:
The early Siemens electric loco at the North Tyneside Steam Railway has been battery operated for the past 20 years or so. The batteries (lead acid) are hidden in one of the waggons it trundles around with.
I don't think batteries powering an immersion heater is feasible. Remember steam locos are only about 6% efficient. So you need an enormous battery, far bigger than a battery powered EMU would require (and even they don't properly exist yet). The batteries would probably end up costing more than the loco overhaul cost. Plus all the fun of firing would be lost.

It would be an interesting calculation, but I suspect the efficiency of a battery/immersion heater would be higher than a conventional steam locomotive, thinking of all the heat from the fire going up the funnel whereas there is much greater conversion of electricity to heat in a well insulated boiler. The steam output to atmosphere after the expansion in the cylinders would be the same though.

Terry Tait · 23 Sep 2019

Battery technology could be useful in future preservation projects, in twenty years or so there may calls to preserve a pendolino or 450 / 377 /375 ect battery power would be the only option to run these trains on heritage lines, I understand that electrification is fought with difficulty for heritage lines.

route:oxford · 23 Sep 2019

Flying Phil said:
It would be an interesting calculation, but I suspect the efficiency of a battery/immersion heater would be higher than a conventional steam locomotive, thinking of all the heat from the fire going up the funnel whereas there is much greater conversion of electricity to heat in a well insulated boiler. The steam output to atmosphere after the expansion in the cylinders would be the same though.

An average coal fired power station is 33% efficient. But that tends to be powdered coal blasted into a furnace rather than lumps of coal. So maybe assume 25% efficiency at turning the coal into steam on the rails. Then that steam is used to turn the wheels, at say 25% efficency, which brings us down to the claimed overall average 6% efficiency.

My expectation would be that it were mains connected to bring up steam at the start of each day, so it wouldn't be a cold-start on battery.

Heating of water by electricity must be in the region of upper 90% efficient if the heating process is well insulated.

So my rough maths is that a battery powered steam loco would be 22.5% efficient.

The next question is, at 22.5% efficiency, how much energy would be required to move a steam loco, battery tender and 6 mk1 coaches from Aviemore to Grantown on Spey (assumming the line is completed).

From there you can work out what size of battery would be needed.

Edders23 · 23 Sep 2019

UP13 said:
Very very long term we have to consider what to do once there is no oil or coal...

we can make oil from plastic or via GTL techniques from methane gas or even CO2

as for coal there are vast amounts sitting under ground

we will never run out.

The point is really about how far future generations will go in the drive to reduce and eliminate CO2 emissions although there are many other far more harmful gases getting pumped into the atmosphere. it might be that all use of fossil fuel will get banned or maybe a selective amount will be permitted in order to allow historical recreations such as a train ride or vintage bus ride

pdeaves · 23 Sep 2019

Edders23 said:
we will never run out.

... but we may run out of companies willing to extract the stuff in small quantities at a price we are prepared to pay.

M28361M · 23 Sep 2019

Terry Tait said:
Battery technology could be useful in future preservation projects, in twenty years or so there may calls to preserve a pendolino or 450 / 377 /375 ect battery power would be the only option to run these trains on heritage lines, I understand that electrification is fought with difficulty for heritage lines.

I do wonder how feasible it would be to install a battery on a preserved third rail EMU (older ones which are less power hungry) to effectively mimic a 750V DC third rail traction supply, so that you could run a train with authentic traction motor noises etc, and not have to hitch a diesel loco up to drag it. For the max speed of 25mph on most preserved lines, it must be doable, surely?

big all · 24 Sep 2019

an mlv is basically exactly the same gubbins as a standard 2 car motor coach
with an additional cab an exhauster for vacuum and a few batteries with around enough power to shunt a few vans for perhaps 15 mins off the juice but at very low speed

big all · 24 Sep 2019

An MLV is basically the same as a standard 2 car motor coach, with an additional cab, an exhauster for vacuum and a few batteries with enough power to shunt a few vans for perhaps 15 mins off the juice, but at very low speed

UP13 · 24 Sep 2019

pdeaves said:
... but we may run out of companies willing to extract the stuff in small quantities at a price we are prepared to pay.

Indeed. Coal will run out eventually (hundreds of years though). However it will be uneconomical to mine.

Meerkat · 24 Sep 2019

Aren’t there small scale (almost one man band) drift mines that could pull the amount of coal needed for heritage railways?

Belperpete · 24 Sep 2019

Alanko said:
Wasn't used cooking oil used on a narrow gauge railway somewhere in England, with multiple complaints lodged about the resulting smell?

The Ffestiniog Railway (in Wales, not England) used to burn old oil of various origins. People used to collect old sump oil from garages, cooking oil, and the like. There was a significant man-power requirement to blend and filter it, and even then batches of "unburnable" oil used to cause problems, or with impurities that used to block the burners. However, the days when you can burn what you like, without really knowing exactly what it is you are burning, are long gone.

Belperpete · 24 Sep 2019

UP13 said:
Indeed. Coal will run out eventually (hundreds of years though). However it will be uneconomical to mine.

I suspect that the real problem will be in getting hold of the right type of coal. Steam engines require a specific type of coal ("steam coal"), for which there is a small market. The "wrong type of coal" can cause big problems, with clinkering, for example, or the coal just going straight up the chimney if too powdery.

Tom B · 24 Sep 2019

Will it not be akin to the dispensation given to owners of motor cars over 40 years old. Providing that they are in the correct tax class, they are exempt from emission charges.

I'd hope that in a similar vain, efforts to reduce emissions focus more on bigger producers than a steam railway running every weekend in summer.

StoneRoad · 24 Sep 2019

Belperpete said:
The Ffestiniog Railway (in Wales, not England) used to burn old oil of various origins. People used to collect old sump oil from garages, cooking oil, and the like. There was a significant man-power requirement to blend and filter it, and even then batches of "unburnable" oil used to cause problems, or with impurities that used to block the burners. However, the days when you can burn what you like, without really knowing exactly what it is you are burning, are long gone.

Aye, sometimes the smell was "interesting" - at times in the late 1980s I remember a strong odour of mothballs hanging about.
And the unburnable stuff was another nightmare of a problem, sometimes too much was blended in by mistake and poor steaming / slippery rails was the certain result.

Edders23 · 24 Sep 2019

pdeaves said:
... but we may run out of companies willing to extract the stuff in small quantities at a price we are prepared to pay.

It may become expensive but split between a hundred tourists on a steam train I'm sure the cost will be borne

Ken H · 24 Sep 2019

UP13 said:
Indeed. Coal will run out eventually (hundreds of years though). However it will be uneconomical to mine.

why mine it? use underground coal gassification.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underground_coal_gasification

convert the kettles to run on gas.

madannie77 · 24 Sep 2019

Battery operated trains run on the third Sunday of each month from May to October** this year at the Eden Valley Railway, using two MLVs (with plenty of batteries) and a 4-CEP. A full day's service is over 26 miles.

(** except August, when an air leak prevented operation)

http://www.evr-cumbria.org.uk/Files/Other/Dubba Dubba Dubba Dubba v2.pdf
http://www.evr-cumbria.org.uk/Files/Other/The Cumbrian Boat Train v2.pdf

Could battery technology be used on Heritage Lines?

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