• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Northern Class 331: Construction/Introduction Updates

Status
Not open for further replies.

Bovverboy

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
1,930
Who's said anything about DMUs? My point was, a 3-car 331 would appear to be much more crowded than a 4-car 319, even with the same number of passengers, simply as a consequence of the significant drop in capacity.

You seem to be working to an assumption that it is never valid to reduce the capacity of stock used on a service.

Perhaps you'd care to point to where I've said, or even implied, that.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Bovverboy

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
1,930
Who's said anything about DMUs? My point was, a 3-car 331 would appear to be much more crowded than a 4-car 319, even with the same number of passengers, simply as a consequence of the significant drop in capacity.

It would depend on how busy the 319s are on the route.

No, it wouldn't, what I've said applies however busy they are. A 3-car 331 would appear to be more crowded than a 4-car 319 whether there were three passengers on board, or three hundred and three.
Poster L & Y made the point that when he used to travel on the route and it was 319s the train was never full, but when he travelled yesterday, and it was a 331/0, it was full and standing. Well if there were, say, 220 passengers on board, a 331/0 would be full and standing, but a 319 would be nowhere near full.

If a 2 car DMU would cope with the majority of the loadings then a 3 car 331 will be fine, however if the 319s are busy then a significant drop in seats could cause issues

I haven't made any comment in respect of whether I think a 3-car 331 will be fine or not.
 
Last edited:

Islandexpress

Member
Joined
3 Mar 2016
Messages
57
At peak times.

I'm wondering if Northern will class the 2320 Leeds - Skipton on a Saturday night as a peak service? It can be quite a squeeze at the moment.

22:56 on Friday night was a 331. First ride for me. Yes it was standing room only. 1st impressions - not sure had had a beers!
 

theblackwatch

Established Member
Joined
15 Feb 2006
Messages
10,714
No 331s out on the Leeds-Doncaster route yesterday afternoon. In the morning is was a 321 or 322 and 331106 - the latter failed after working the 11.26 Doncaster-Leeds, so the 12.21 return and 13.26 ex Doncaster were cancelled. Another 321/322 was rustled up for the 331s next working (14.21 ex Leeds).
 

KevinTurvey

Member
Joined
9 Oct 2016
Messages
205
I have been out a few times over the last fortnight looking at and indeed travelling on some of the 331's recently introduced. My first observations are very impressive acceleration, although with all the other CAF stock I have been on, the ride over the coach ends is not quite to my liking.

What struck me though was the overcrowding already - full all seats taken leaving Liverpool, and full and standing leaving Preston. Never witnessed this on a 319, although did on a 156 on several occasions.

I think there has been significant long term growth on this route over the last 30 years. I recall travelling on the Wigan stoppers years ago and there were maybe a few dozen on board, certainly not enough to overcrowd a pacer unless at peak time. Now some of these same services using 319s are full to bursting, on a Saturday especially, so much so that they have had to open all the ticket gates at Lime St to let everyone out quickly.

I think our new 2 and 3 car units are already showing symptoms of Voyager disease. A similar thing is happening on the CLC with the 195s replacing double 156s.
 

Redmike

Member
Joined
13 May 2018
Messages
124
I think our new 2 and 3 car units are already showing symptoms of Voyager disease. A similar thing is happening on the CLC with the 195s replacing double 156s.
I can't believe that 2 car 195s were ordered. Anything less than 3 cars is a recipe for overcrowding unless it's guaranteed to run as 2 x 2 cars and with Northern's record for shortforming thats not likely.
 

Smylers

Member
Joined
1 Jul 2010
Messages
30
Location
Ilkley
On a 331 Ilkley–Bradford Forster Square this morning. Snazzy new information screen declaring that the next stop is Ben Rhydding ... well after we've passed Ben Rhydding and are on our way to Burley. (It changed just as we were approaching Burley.)

The recorded announcements voice sounds both more natural and more northern than on the 333s. ‘Forster’ is still pronounced with the ‘R’ in it, unlike the manual announcements made before the 333s were introduced, where the conductors with local accents would generally say something that sounded more like ‘Foster’.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,555
Location
Mold, Clwyd
331 001 (3-car) on 0936 Liverpool-Blackpool today
Usual CAF rattly/bumpy ride, especially over the bogies.
Feels full compared to the old 319.
It had a good sprint away from Wigan on the WCML, doing 100mph I reckoned before Boars Head.

I changed into a full-and-standing 319 at Leyland for Manchester.
Because of security problems at Manchester Airport there were cancellations so this Airport train was packed.
It swallowed everything thrown at it, as 319s do, and managed a steady and comfortable run to Manchester with a better ride than the 331.
So 3-car 331 or 4-car 319? I know I prefer the latter.
 
Last edited:

Mollman

Established Member
Joined
21 Sep 2016
Messages
1,211
It would depend on how busy the 319s are on the route. If a 2 car DMU would cope with the majority of the loadings then a 3 car 331 will be fine, however if the 319s are busy then a significant drop in seats could cause issues

There was a move towards 2x156s on the route prior to electrification. Two coach units were nearly always full and standing.
 

Chris125

Established Member
Joined
12 Nov 2009
Messages
3,074
I can't believe that 2 car 195s were ordered.

A fleet that allows 2/3/4/5 and 6-car 195s makes perfect sense for Northern and is entirely logical for a diesel fleet likely to be cascaded to more rural routes in the coming decades.
 

Bovverboy

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
1,930
A fleet that allows 2/3/4/5 and 6-car 195s makes perfect sense for Northern and is entirely logical for a diesel fleet likely to be cascaded to more rural routes in the coming decades.

I agree, a 2-car 195 would be perfectly okay, for, say, CLC stoppers on a Sunday, or any other route which currently (satisfactorily) uses 2-car Pacers or Sprinters. Since having the 5-car set on Liverpool - Manchester Airport semi-fasts the other day, we've had all the above combinations, already!
 

Nymanic

Member
Joined
6 Jan 2014
Messages
146
Location
Manchester
A fleet that allows 2/3/4/5 and 6-car 195s makes perfect sense for Northern and is entirely logical for a diesel fleet likely to be cascaded to more rural routes in the coming decades.

The lack of corridor connections does little for revenue collection, already a sore point when dealing a franchise that receives such a large subsidy.

And I'm sure it's been quoted that the 195s are not nearly numerous enough to cover their prescribed routes without noticeable capacity reduction. In other words, multiple workings will be not nearly as commonplace as we'd like.

Still, the sad truth is that a larger order (and its associated costs) would have done little to curry favour with the DfT, and Arriva's franchise bid would likely have been overlooked.
 

js1000

Member
Joined
14 Jun 2014
Messages
1,011
Still, the sad truth is that a larger order (and its associated costs) would have done little to curry favour with the DfT, and Arriva's franchise bid would likely have been overlooked.
Additional carriages are being explored but will only happen if passenger numbers and satisfaction pick-up. I suspect it'll be part of the next franchise. The problem is I think any growth could take a few years as it'll take time for word to get around that Northern trains "aren't as bad as they used to be" - particularly after the May 2018 omnishambles which (in my view) did irrevocable damage for Arriva and the Northern franchise. TransPennine Express really went places following the introduction of the Desiros in 2005 so it's not unreasonable to expect passenger growth now Northern actually has trains people would want to travel on.
 

Deerfold

Veteran Member
Joined
26 Nov 2009
Messages
12,569
Location
Yorkshire
Are the 322s supposed to be disappearing from Skipton/Ilkley?

I keep seeing 331s.

And catching more 322s than ever.
 

agbrs_Jack

Member
Joined
28 Apr 2017
Messages
317
Location
Congleton / Milton Keynes
There is also the point of the bay platform still be required for the hourly 323 service, of which the 331 was directly behind meaning the bay would have been occupied when it was in Stoke-on-Trent

Most of them seem to be timed to arrived just after the Northern service has left P3.
I suppose this gives the option of using the bay should they need to.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,555
Location
Mold, Clwyd
319s also can do 100 mph by Boars Head.

The 331 was definitely faster off the mark than a 319, as you would expect.
I'm not wholly won over to 195/331, especially with 3-car versus 4-car.
But the creature comforts are nice (wifi, power sockets, decent window view, leg room, tables, PIS etc).
Sort the ride out and they will be good units.
 

ed1971

Member
Joined
14 Jan 2009
Messages
589
Location
Wigan
Sorry if it has already been mentioned earlier, but has the Sunday Blackpool North to Liverpool LS hourly service now Class 331 operated or still run with DMUs?
 

J4mez

Member
Joined
18 Aug 2019
Messages
27
Location
Wirral
Sorry if it has already been mentioned earlier, but has the Sunday Blackpool North to Liverpool LS hourly service now Class 331 operated or still run with DMUs?
If I remember correctly 331001 was running from Liverpool to Blackpool on Sunday.
 

ed1971

Member
Joined
14 Jan 2009
Messages
589
Location
Wigan
Additional carriages are being explored but will only happen if passenger numbers and satisfaction pick-up. I suspect it'll be part of the next franchise. The problem is I think any growth could take a few years as it'll take time for word to get around that Northern trains "aren't as bad as they used to be" - particularly after the May 2018 omnishambles which (in my view) did irrevocable damage for Arriva and the Northern franchise. TransPennine Express really went places following the introduction of the Desiros in 2005 so it's not unreasonable to expect passenger growth now Northern actually has trains people would want to travel on.

How much more growth do they need to justify more new units? I have travelled from Manchester Piccadilly to Wigan on a Saturday evening a few times recently. It was like a Friday night rush hour and was bedlam. The Blackpool North services from here despite being 319s were also stuffed to the gunnels. Passenger growth has certainly increased a lot since around 2010.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,555
Location
Mold, Clwyd
How much more growth do they need to justify more new units? I have travelled from Manchester Piccadilly to Wigan on a Saturday evening a few times recently. It was like a Friday night rush hour and was bedlam. The Blackpool North services from here despite being 319s were also stuffed to the gunnels. Passenger growth has certainly increased a lot since around 2010.

Nothing will happen before the current franchise ends in 2025.
Northern has yet to deliver against its franchise commitments in terms of fleet content, and recover from the commercial setbacks of the last couple of years.
You only have to look at XC to see how the DfT declines to increase resources during the lifetime of franchises.
The current Northern passenger/revenue predictions will be based on 2014/15 when the bids went in.
 

Bovverboy

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
1,930
Sorry if it has already been mentioned earlier, but has the Sunday Blackpool North to Liverpool LS hourly service now Class 331 operated or still run with DMUs?

IIRC the Sunday service went 319 when the Blackpool line was electrified, there was no further need for diesel operation.
 

ed1971

Member
Joined
14 Jan 2009
Messages
589
Location
Wigan
IIRC the Sunday service went 319 when the Blackpool line was electrified, there was no further need for diesel operation.

I think you are right. I was forgetting that the Preston to Blackpool North section of the route was only completed later. Due to this, the Sunday through service was DMU operated. The Monday to Saturday services were split at Preston.
 

Karl

On Moderation
Joined
16 Aug 2011
Messages
710
Location
Bamber Bridge
I nearly suffered whiplash each time my 331 departed the station stops to Liverpool from Preston yesterday. I was impressed with their speed. Nice units despite their slightly wobbly ride at times. I like them.
 

LeylandLen

Member
Joined
28 Oct 2013
Messages
779
Location
Leyland Lancs
How much more growth do they need to justify more new units? I have travelled from Manchester Piccadilly to Wigan on a Saturday evening a few times recently. It was like a Friday night rush hour and was bedlam. The Blackpool North services from here despite being 319s were also stuffed to the gunnels. Passenger growth has certainly increased a lot since around 2010.

There has been and still is a lot of new house building in the Leyland/south Preston area ; I assume its not the only place to experience this in the N/W.Obviously some will be commuters to from Liverpool/Manchester , both accesible direct from this area.Plus more being tempted to use 'new' trains,hence the rise in passengers !!
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
32,269
Location
A semi-rural part of north-west England
There has been and still is a lot of new house building in the Leyland/south Preston area ; I assume its not the only place to experience this in the N/W.Obviously some will be commuters to from Liverpool/Manchester , both accesible direct from this area.Plus more being tempted to use 'new' trains,hence the rise in passengers !!

When the term "commuters" is used, it should be remembered there are countless areas where business parks are situated and in many cases, these business parks are in places where no railways exist. Look at the car parking in the buildings in these business parks, supplied when the premises were built.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top