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Class 333 v 331.

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modernrail

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Which do people think is the superior unit? One is quite old (and its sister fleet at Heathrow Express is about to be turned into cans). One is brand spanking new. Both will be running on the same routes in West Yorkshire. Both are by the same manufacturer.

My vote is the 333 because:

- the units always seem to have plenty of welly to get up to speed. So do the 331's to be fair;
- They are free of the very annoying noises on the 331.
- Unbelievably, I would take the 3+2 seating layout of the 333 over the 2+2 of the 331. The seats are pretty comfortable on a 333 but awful on a 331 (and thousands of other trains using the same seats). The 3+2 on a 333 is also one of the better 3+2 layouts.
- a big one for me - I have always liked the internal set-up of a 333. The sides are straight maximising internal volume, on the 331 they seem to come in towards the top. What is the logic for this approach on any UK train (other than tilters)? I think the electrostars do the same wheras the Desiro's make full use of available loading gauge?

It is in the roof I have always thought a trick is being missed in other fleets. The 333 unit seems to curve to the maximum headroom for the loading gauge at the top and then the housing for the A/C and lighting hangs down in the middle. This seems to give the unit a very roomy feel and not unlike MKI/II carriages (minus the AC housing in those obviously). By contrast the 331 feels cramped. I have always felt the 333 approach should be the standard interior layout for UK bearing in mind our restricted loading gauge.
- I prefer the external styling of the 333. It is sleeker whereas the 331 looks like something designed in the early 1980's to look all 'futurey'.
- I prefer the integrated PIS on the 333 to the 'looks like it was stuck on as an afterthought' PIS of the 331.

If the consensus is for the 333, how has CAF managed to produce a much newer but less pleasing train??
 
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Neptune

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As a regular on the Aire valley and as someone who signs both units as a guard then it has to be the 333.

For instance the 333 was designed for the triangle with high capacity seating and large roomy doorways. I totally agree that the loading gauge has been maximised to give a roomy feel.

The 331 is a compromise design for both commuter and semi fast services and it hasn’t quite succeeded in that respect. A low capacity seating layout with commuter style standing capacity and no large luggage capacity was never going to work.

The 333 is a much better ride too. The 331 seems to rock and roll at the slightest hint of a junction whereas the ride of a 333 is far smoother. The seats in the 333’s although narrower for the 3+2 layout are infinitely more comfy. Maybe the plan for the Metro style layout in the driving cars could have assisted with the most densely crushed peak hour services.

The PIS on the 333 does need upgrading to GPS based to cut down on ‘The next station is.....’ announcements and it would prevent it shifting on to the next station during a door test meaning a reset required and the additional TV screens on the saloon ends like the 331’s would be fine for me.

Lest we forget that CAF/Siemens offered 5 extra 333’s to replace the 321/9 fleet and the remaining diesel peak time diagrams on the triangle and also there was some mention of building a 5th car for some if not all of the units when the 4th cars were completed. Metro turned this down on cost grounds and the jigs were destroyed meaning the design was lost forever. The 333’s are a super unit which have just had a good refurbishment making them look as new (unlike the older units being done) and once the final phase is hopefully done (plugs and/or USB’s), cab refurbishment etc.... then they will show up many much newer trains.
 

J-2739

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Actually, I'd argue that it is the 333s that probably resembles a 90s industrial designer's wet dream. Whilst the 331s almost look... on trend?

I'm not sure what that strange noise that the Civities produce actually is, but isn't that a small tradeoff for the benefits of these trains, such as increased overall capacity? (should be realised when the East Side of the Pennies get back their 2×3 car 331s)

3+2 seating is always gonna be troublesome, as not everybody is willing to occupy the middle seat, matter the comfort levels.

The PIS on the 331s do look quite the afterthought (aesthetics wise), but that's the only disadvantage over the 333s PIS, as the colour screen can also display additional information, such as departure times of connecting trains, as well as subtle info, such as outdoor temperatures. Perhaps in the future, they could also be updated to display passenger loading per each car, and maybe even the station layouts for the next station, so passengers can plan their exit route upon arrival.

Try doing all that on the dot matrix PIS of the 333.

All in all, I think the 331s will improve the overall experience for the passengers of those lines, who have experienced chronic overcrowding for a while.
 

NoMorePacers

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Personally I prefer the 331s.

Although I’m not a local to the triangle, I have ridden on both and whilst the comfort of the 333 seats were slightly better, I still found the 331 seats more than tolerable. Also, I much prefer the 2+2 seats on 331s to the 3+2 seats on the 333s. Tables and plugs being on the 331s is also another plus over the 333. The extra legroom benefits me over the one on the 333 as someone who is 6ft tall.

I find 331s quite interesting from an enthusiast standpoint - their utterly rapid acceleration, their generally pleasant ambiance, and so on. The only fault is the deafening VCB thump when going through neutral sections - some passengers sat near me thought something had broken on the train! :lol:

However, the 333s are not interesting in the slightest. Not particularly nice to look at, don’t make an interesting sound, relatively unexceptional acceleration, mediocre seating, dodgy PIS; I found them really boring.

So my vote goes to the 331.
 

Neptune

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Personally I prefer the 331s.

Although I’m not a local to the triangle, I have ridden on both and whilst the comfort of the 333 seats were slightly better, I still found the 331 seats more than tolerable. Also, I much prefer the 2+2 seats on 331s to the 3+2 seats on the 333s. Tables and plugs being on the 331s is also another plus over the 333. The extra legroom benefits me over the one on the 333 as someone who is 6ft tall.

I find 331s quite interesting from an enthusiast standpoint - their utterly rapid acceleration, their generally pleasant ambiance, and so on. The only fault is the deafening VCB thump when going through neutral sections - some passengers sat near me thought something had broken on the train! :lol:

However, the 333s are not interesting in the slightest. Not particularly nice to look at, don’t make an interesting sound, relatively unexceptional acceleration, mediocre seating, dodgy PIS; I found them really boring.

So my vote goes to the 331.
The acceleration on a 333 is fantastic and more than adequate for the routes they operate. It doesn’t knock people off their feet like the 331 has been doing. The ride quality on a 333 is also vastly superior therefore combining the two makes for a far more comfortable and pleasant journey. Bear in mind the timetable is not going to be speeded up so no need for more than what they have.

Modern trappings such as plugs and better PIS screens can be added (look at the mkIV coaches) and the original plan for a Metro style layout in the driving coaches would have more or less sorted the overcrowding problem on the few services that suffer from it. Of course these things cost money which is why most of these won’t be done. Are tables a real necessity for a max 40 min journey?

I sat by the window on a 331 the other day and because of the intrusively high and curved floor level ducting I couldn’t get comfortable at all. Another massive minus. I’ve never been uncomfortable on a 333 in any seat. 3+2 isn’t perfect but of all units in this layout the 333’s seem to get the middle seat used more than any other class. This is possibly because the seat back is sculpted with a more private feeling definition between each seat.

I know it’s all down to personal opinion and choice and most people get caught up in the whole new train thing, but as a user of the route the 333 ticks far more boxes for the routes they work than the hybrid not quite commuter/not quite express unit that the 331 is.
 

modernrail

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I forgot about the floor level ducting! Dreadful on the 331 and worse than the already bad ducting on the 700's.

Why has this become an issue all of a sudden. It isn't on the 333's or original desiros, so why have newer trains from CAF and Siemens ended up creating a new problem they had already solved? Is there something going on like this being related to energy efficiency or even something more bizarre lilke trying to use bits and pieces from the UK supply chain? It just seems really odd that this has emerged as a new problem.
 

Prestige15

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For some reason despite the 333 is 20+ years older it does somehow looks more modern than the 331, It does also look like it belongs on the semi-fase/express service even though that will never happen.
 

class 9

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Had my first ride on a 331 yesterday, only Ilkley - Guiseley though.
My first thought was why has a commuter train got tables and seat numbers??
The seat are firm but ok for short journeys, the PIS wasn’t working and the ride wasn’t quite as smooth as a 333.
But head and shoulders above a 321/322.
 

XC victim

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I have always been a massive fan of the class 333, and despite being 20 years old they have a really modern feeling. It is strange that the 321/322 were only 10 years older yet the gulf in quality was amazing.

With their capacity and performance they are ideal for the Airedale & Wharfdale triangle services. And they are very comfortable too. Possibly the only train I know where 3+2 seating works.

The class 331 are adequate (their layout is probably better suited to longer distance connect services). And I do always appreciate a table, especially fold down ones in airline seating. They are certainly better than the 321 & 322 they replaced. But for me they are no where near as good as the class 333.
 

61653 HTAFC

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The 331s are fine units although I've not ridden one since their opening day. However they're not really ideal for the services they'll be used on in Yorkshire. The low-density seating layout will be nice for Skipton and Steeton passengers, but by Shipley they'll be packed to the rafters! They'll be good out West on the Blackpools though.

It would, with hindsight, have been preferable to specify two different sorts of layout for the 331 fleet- though if a suburban version for WY had been specified they'd have been 3-car units: and the whole issue with platforms at Leeds rears its head.
 

387star

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Can't be any complaints about northern seat comfort on new trains as they were chosen by the customers <D
 

61653 HTAFC

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Any chance of the 332s being procure to work alongside the 333s now that they are being retired?
As much as zero. They're owned by Heathrow Airport (or a connected holding company) and have been worked to death on Heathrow Express. Despite their visual similarity they have surprisingly little in common with the 333s.
 

route101

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Had my first ride on a 331 yesterday, only Ilkley - Guiseley though.
My first thought was why has a commuter train got tables and seat numbers??
The seat are firm but ok for short journeys, the PIS wasn’t working and the ride wasn’t quite as smooth as a 333.
But head and shoulders above a 321/322.

I think Northern will be offering seat reservations on its connect routes at somepoint . Not sure if any 331 routes will offer this . Not sure how this will go down , as many see these as commuter trains .
 

Llama

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Can't be any complaints about northern seat comfort on new trains as they were chosen by the customers <D
Yes, the customers chose a certain seat design from a few alternatives offered. Then Northern just ordered the cheapest of the lot anyway...
 

class 9

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I think Northern will be offering seat reservations on its connect routes at somepoint . Not sure if any 331 routes will offer this . Not sure how this will go down , as many see these as commuter trains .
It’s fair enough for the 195s to have seat numbers, but there’s no need on a 331, a purely commuter train.
 

ash39

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The 333's are fantastic units. It's hard to believe they are nearly 20 years old.

The 331's don't seem like bad trains either, but until the platform work has been done on the triangle to allow them to run as 6-car formations, it's hard to see where they improve over the 333's.
 

Grumpy

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As much as zero. They're owned by Heathrow Airport (or a connected holding company) and have been worked to death on Heathrow Express. Despite their visual similarity they have surprisingly little in common with the 333s.
I have some difficulty understanding this. I accept they may might need some work such as fitting TPWS. They are a similar vintage to the class 170's. I would have thought class 170 DMU's in Scotland had a pretty tough life up and down hills and thrashed between Edinburgh and Glasgow, but now seem to be ok for Yorkshire. A 5 car 332 reseated like a 333 ( or a 333 with a 332 trailer added)would seem to be a very useful Aire Valley commuter mover and much more sensible than 2*331's.
 

supervc-10

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My understanding was that there has been a lot of deferred maintenance recently on the 332s, and as such they're pretty tatty. I'm sure someone on here was talking about corrosion below the solebar?
 

61653 HTAFC

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I have some difficulty understanding this. I accept they may might need some work such as fitting TPWS. They are a similar vintage to the class 170's. I would have thought class 170 DMU's in Scotland had a pretty tough life up and down hills and thrashed between Edinburgh and Glasgow, but now seem to be ok for Yorkshire. A 5 car 332 reseated like a 333 ( or a 333 with a 332 trailer added)would seem to be a very useful Aire Valley commuter mover and much more sensible than 2*331's.
My understanding was that (besides the deferred maintenance, and heavy workload put on them over the last two decades) that quite a few components were updated or redesigned between the 332s and the 333s. So whilst some shared components would be useful for the spares float, for the most part if they came North they'd have to be on a different maintenance schedule and only a limited number of parts would be suitable for both fleets.
 

Bantamzen

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The 331s are fine units although I've not ridden one since their opening day. However they're not really ideal for the services they'll be used on in Yorkshire. The low-density seating layout will be nice for Skipton and Steeton passengers, but by Shipley they'll be packed to the rafters! They'll be good out West on the Blackpools though.

It would, with hindsight, have been preferable to specify two different sorts of layout for the 331 fleet- though if a suburban version for WY had been specified they'd have been 3-car units: and the whole issue with platforms at Leeds rears its head.

The 321/322s that they are replacing are already full by Shipley, as are the 333s. The plan obviously was the 3 car car variants running in multiple, but thanks to a lack of platform capacity that just isn't possible. So for now I'll take the 331s over the 321/322s, as the latter are really showing their age and becoming unreliable.
 

61653 HTAFC

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The 321/322s that they are replacing are already full by Shipley, as are the 333s. The plan obviously was the 3 car car variants running in multiple, but thanks to a lack of platform capacity that just isn't possible. So for now I'll take the 331s over the 321/322s, as the latter are really showing their age and becoming unreliable.
My point was that low-density seating in the 331s is the wrong choice for packed commuter services. A layout closer to the 333s and 323s is needed there. Even if you're going all the way to Skipton, a table isn't really necessary.
 

NorthernSpirit

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Any chance of the 332s being procure to work alongside the 333s now that they are being retired?

There more chance of the class 332's being stripped for spares for the 333's - such as light fittings, windows, doors, seats, grab handles, toilet door, etc. Out of both the 333 and the 331, I'd say both as the 333 looked more futuristic when pressed into service back in 2000 and the 331 as it has tables and a full colour screen rather than dot matrix.
 

mde

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It’s fair enough for the 195s to have seat numbers, but there’s no need on a 331, a purely commuter train.
Numbers are useful for fault reporting and for flexibility over future usage…
 

Bantamzen

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My point was that low-density seating in the 331s is the wrong choice for packed commuter services. A layout closer to the 333s and 323s is needed there. Even if you're going all the way to Skipton, a table isn't really necessary.

I understand, but my point was most of the 331s were supposed to be running around in 6 car formations, which would compensate for the lower density seating. The fact that this just isn't possible right now became an issue after the units were ordered.

And in all honesty, an awful lot of the time middle seats in rows of three are ignored & people just tend to stand on the triangle services. This seems to be more of an issue on morning peaks than evening, but is a product of the very tight arrangements on the 333s. Put 6 people all over 6" or so in those bays and you rapidly run out of room anyway, hence people often preferring to stand. Of course all this can be mitigated by not putting the 331s on the busiest of diagrams for now, although admittedly there will always be some times when circumstances play out that see them working them. But I'll wager that on these occasions, a packed 331 will still be less cosy than a packed 321/322, which are after all the units they are replacing.
 

xotGD

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OK, I am now on a 331 for the first time so can finally pass judgement. This is way better than a 333. 2+2 seating with tables, bright and airy feel. Seats are firm but much more comfortable than those curved things on 333s.

Of course, if I end up standing in the morning peak due to the reduced seat count I might take a different view.

Unit is 106, btw.
 

Deerfold

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But I'll wager that on these occasions, a packed 331 will still be less cosy than a packed 321/322, which are after all the units they are replacing.

Are they though? I keep seeing 331s, but I'm catching more 321s and 322s than ever.
 

Bantamzen

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Are they though? I keep seeing 331s, but I'm catching more 321s and 322s than ever.

I've been catching lots of 321/322s for months now on my commute, especially since the 333 refurbs started. But yes, the 331s will replace them, indeed 321901 is reported to have left Yorkshire to Heaton where it is in warm storage.
 

xotGD

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Post script to last night's 331 run. A woman in the toilet had failed to lock the door and was rather embarrassed when a chap thought it was vacant and pressed the 'Open' button.
 

Aictos

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The Class 333s are a good design and well built for their duties, what would have been nice is if Metro ordered the extra Class 333s that CAF were offering to displace the Class 321/9s elsewhere ie standardise their EMU fleet for operational flexibility but that boat has long sailed.
 
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