Carrying heavy items for passengers

Ivor · 21 Sep 2019

MDB1images said:
If you find it a struggle you shouldn't be doing it.
You are putting yourself at risk which no TOC would allow/accept.
Is there a station/area manager you can chat to as it's something they need making aware of if this passenger is a regular.

We don’t as agency workers have contact with an area manager & told recently by a TOC employee following an agency staff member being badly assaulted apparently the area manager said...
“I have enough problems with my own staff without getting involved with agency staff issues”

On many shifts we are filling in covering TOC staff holidays/sickness so as one finishes & ticket office closes we are then on shift alone involving unlocking & locking up when we finish at night”

Many stations along the line that are often manned by a ticket office member who is at least locked away to work where as we turn up & take over the manning of the station just have the small mess room/kitchen access but if push comes to shove we can get in there & lock the door. I’m sure this is true of many stations across the UK.

That sounds like the Bronx which I’m not indicating but as you know on occasion stations can attract the ‘fools’ to use a term that’s not deemed rude.

RailUK Forums

Comstock · 21 Sep 2019

FWIW in my experience only about 10% of people who say they're going to make a complaint actually do.

May the odds be ever in your favour.....

hooverboy · 21 Sep 2019

Ivor said:
We don’t as agency workers have contact with an area manager & told recently by a TOC employee following an agency staff member being badly assaulted apparently the area manager said...
“I have enough problems with my own staff without getting involved with agency staff issues”

On many shifts we are filling in covering TOC staff holidays/sickness so as one finishes & ticket office closes we are then on shift alone involving unlocking & locking up when we finish at night”

Many stations along the line that are often manned by a ticket office member who is at least locked away to work where as we turn up & take over the manning of the station just have the small mess room/kitchen access but if push comes to shove we can get in there & lock the door. I’m sure this is true of many stations across the UK.

That sounds like the Bronx which I’m not indicating but as you know on occasion stations can attract the ‘fools’ to use a term that’s not deemed rude.

doesn't matter that you don't have much in the way of contact.

the Toc has subcontracted out work, it still means they bear ultimate responsibility to the staff they have doing the job.agency or not.

Ivor · 21 Sep 2019

Comstock said:
FWIW in my experience only about 10% of people who say they're going to make a complaint actually do.

May the odds be ever in your favour.....

Thanks, yep no ‘fall out’ yet so as I thought after the event ‘hot air’

After assisting 8 times the past couple of weeks & very politely explaining the problem I know I did what I could.

As they say you can’t please all of the people all of the time!

trainophile · 21 Sep 2019

Is there another station down the track that would avoid her having to make this manoeuvre? If it were a wheelchair user they might be permitted to travel onwards one stop and come back on the next service, although in this woman's case she could probably have taken the ten minute walk rather than mess around with that. Anyway presumably all stations would have either a bridge or an underpass (unless there's an island platform), so nothing much to be gained.

I expect when she thinks about it she realises how unreasonable she is being. I bet she doesn't make a formal complaint.

GrimShady · 21 Sep 2019

I'm not sure they could discipline you anyway of you work for an agency as technically they are your employers.

Comstock · 21 Sep 2019

No, but they don't need to. They simply call the agency and say they don't need you anymore and in most (but not all) cases you have little or no comeback.

Ivor · 21 Sep 2019

trainophile said:
Is there another station down the track that would avoid her having to make this manoeuvre? If it were a wheelchair user they might be permitted to travel onwards one stop and come back on the next service, although in this woman's case she could probably have taken the ten minute walk rather than mess around with that. Anyway presumably all stations would have either a bridge or an underpass (unless there's an island platform), so nothing much to be gained.

I expect when she thinks about it she realises how unreasonable she is being. I bet she doesn't make a formal complaint.

There is one 4 minutes but same problem of wanting to go over the footbridge. To her wouldn’t make sense.

I shouldn’t have driven myself mad with this scenario but like all of us I suppose if we are conscientious you do your best.

Ivor · 21 Sep 2019

Comstock said:
No, but they don't need to. They simply call the agency and say they don't need you anymore and in most (but not all) cases you have little or no comeback.

Exactly, the pitfalls of agency. As I say sometimes needs must.

MDB1images · 21 Sep 2019

Ivor said:
We don’t as agency workers have contact with an area manager & told recently by a TOC employee following an agency staff member being badly assaulted apparently the area manager said...
“I have enough problems with my own staff without getting involved with agency staff issues”

On many shifts we are filling in covering TOC staff holidays/sickness so as one finishes & ticket office closes we are then on shift alone involving unlocking & locking up when we finish at night”

Many stations along the line that are often manned by a ticket office member who is at least locked away to work where as we turn up & take over the manning of the station just have the small mess room/kitchen access but if push comes to shove we can get in there & lock the door. I’m sure this is true of many stations across the UK.

That sounds like the Bronx which I’m not indicating but as you know on occasion stations can attract the ‘fools’ to use a term that’s not deemed rude.

Be careful taking what the TOC employee said as being fact.
The Area Manager may think it privately but he will know he can't ignore things raised on his patch particularly around safe working regardless of who raised it.

I will guarantee you the local area managers views won't be shared by his superiors or the companies Head of safety....

the sniper · 22 Sep 2019

Ivor providing a depressing insight into the future of most front line railway employment...

All the best to you fella.

GrimShady · 22 Sep 2019

Comstock said:
No, but they don't need to. They simply call the agency and say they don't need you anymore and in most (but not all) cases you have little or no comeback.

Yes that it's a risk however they don't really have a leg to stand on if the OP does as I said in my previous post.

paddington · 22 Sep 2019

I saw something like this at Preston yesterday. Not sure who the people wearing the Northern polo shirts hanging around the stairs to Platforms 1 and 2 are (they never seem to check tickets or sell them, are they drivers??) but a lady approached them and asked for luggage help, someone said "we're not insured to carry luggage" but one of their colleagues said "oh come on" and just took it for the lady. Both of these staff were big men, not that it should make a difference but just to give a picture of the scenario.

trainophile · 22 Sep 2019

As another thought, what would the position be if a staff member helping a passenger unofficially were to drop a case or bag, and an expensive laptop or something got damaged? I would hope the onus wouldn't fall on the railway to pay for such a situation.

theironroad · 22 Sep 2019

trainophile said:
As another thought, what would the position be if a staff member helping a passenger unofficially were to drop a case or bag, and an expensive laptop or something got damaged? I would hope the onus wouldn't fall on the railway to pay for such a situation.

I could easily see the person suffering the damage would complain and seek compensation from the railway. I'd imagine that the railway would pay out even it was a goodwill payment.

tpjm · 22 Sep 2019

I manage a team of platform staff who probably do similar work to you @Ivor

We currently have a situation at another TOCs station where my team are based where there are NO working lifts. I expect my team to dynamically risk assess the items of luggage/buggies/prams/kitchen sink, and determine if it is safe to be moved via the stairs. Sometimes customers are insistent and will attempt to use the stairs, with or without help, so it's important that we get the level of assistance right to mitigate customers putting themselves into dangerous situations, even against our advice, as we still have a duty of care to others on the station.

I would argue that in your circumstance, the lady in question could have taken an alternative route which would have been safer for her, the child and importantly, you. For this reason, regardless of what 'other colleagues' would have done, you were right to recommend this option. I do not see how any sane employer could advise you to have done differently. Professionally, I would advise you to inform the manager on the station (i.e. whoever you report to with issues whilst on shift) if anything like this happens again, not so much of 'I refused this' but more 'the customer said she would complain because I wouldn't help her do something dangerous'. It might also be worth throwing this question out to your manager, e.g. "what do I do if...?" and just play a bit dumb. My personal opinion on this issue would be to keep quiet as experience tells me that she won't complain about you because it's too much trouble.

When you conduct a risk assessment, the process is simple: identify the risk then establish how to remove it. The first step is always, can you 'just not do it'? If the answer is no, that is when you then look to use mitigations, i.e. training staff in manual handling, providing extra staff, providing equipment like trolleys and barrows. Here the risk is to you, the lady and the child, if she takes the longer route, the risk is removed. Risk assessment is happy and everyone goes home safely.

Ivor · 22 Sep 2019

tpjm said:
I manage a team of platform staff who probably do similar work to you @Ivor

We currently have a situation at another TOCs station where my team are based where there are NO working lifts. I expect my team to dynamically risk assess the items of luggage/buggies/prams/kitchen sink, and determine if it is safe to be moved via the stairs. Sometimes customers are insistent and will attempt to use the stairs, with or without help, so it's important that we get the level of assistance right to mitigate customers putting themselves into dangerous situations, even against our advice, as we still have a duty of care to others on the station.

I would argue that in your circumstance, the lady in question could have taken an alternative route which would have been safer for her, the child and importantly, you. For this reason, regardless of what 'other colleagues' would have done, you were right to recommend this option. I do not see how any sane employer could advise you to have done differently. Professionally, I would advise you to inform the manager on the station (i.e. whoever you report to with issues whilst on shift) if anything like this happens again, not so much of 'I refused this' but more 'the customer said she would complain because I wouldn't help her do something dangerous'. It might also be worth throwing this question out to your manager, e.g. "what do I do if...?" and just play a bit dumb. My personal opinion on this issue would be to keep quiet as experience tells me that she won't complain about you because it's too much trouble.

When you conduct a risk assessment, the process is simple: identify the risk then establish how to remove it. The first step is always, can you 'just not do it'? If the answer is no, that is when you then look to use mitigations, i.e. training staff in manual handling, providing extra staff, providing equipment like trolleys and barrows. Here the risk is to you, the lady and the child, if she takes the longer route, the risk is removed. Risk assessment is happy and everyone goes home safely.

Thanks for this, I’ve learned more from all your replies than I ever have from the Agency, across 2 weeks I’ve done ‘my bit’ 8 times but last week when my back went I had to politely say something & yes for her it’s all about a 2 minute walk v a 10 minute one.

A cliche I know but for a few bob above the minimum wage working solo the cleaning up after the drunkards, the occasional abuse (which I know this stuff we all deal with at times) I thought no got to put my well-being up high on the list & like many of you out there I know we all go above & beyond.

Have a great coming week all & thanks again everyone!

NorthernSpirit · 23 Sep 2019

Taunton said:
Do none of you know how to handle potentially heavy items? You don't need an employer's course and certificate, it's even on YouTube. One of the basics of life, like walking without stepping on doggy-doos.

I'm manual handling trained and can easily lift up to 30 kilogram bags provided that I have one on each shoulder, as part of my job I am expected to do this up to four times a day six days a week but I don't expect someone in their late 50's and onwards to manage the same as someone in their 30's.

Bletchleyite said:
She could if she could be bothered walking round on the road. She sounds lazy and obnoxious and deserving of no help whatsoever.

This woman to me comes across as one of these that expects everything done for them but gives none in return. They'll be a cut off point where no member of staff will help her (and others like her) at the railway station.

Carrying heavy items for passengers

Ivor

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Comstock

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