Unable to buy ticket

Hadders · 7 Sep 2019

Belperpete said:
Where is this stipulated? I can't see this requirement anywhere in the NRCoT. If you board at a station without ticket-issuing facilities, then you are required to purchase a ticket at the first opportunity, but it doesn't appear to stipulate anything about having to physically obtain it.

You've been a bit selective with what you've quoted there so let me try and be a bit clearer.

If you purchase a ticket via an online system then you must be in possession of it before you commence your journey. What you cannot do is travel using the booking reference number and collect your ticket en-route unless the TVM at your origin station is out of order meaning that you are unable to collect your ticket.

Not every station has a TVM which is why you have to select the station you wish to collect your ticket from during the purchase process. You are only able to select stations with ticket collecting facilities.

Belperpete said:
I am not convinced that the position is that clear. The guard was clearly not happy to let me travel all the way to New Street without a ticket (and I was also concerned what position I might be in if I refused to buy a ticket and was then caught travelling without a ticket in the Penalty Fare Zone), and TfW are clearly regarding the 10-15 minute station stop at Mach as reasonable opportunity to get off, buy a ticket, and get back on again. It will be interesting to see how Llanigraham gets on: will they insist that he gets off at Shrewsbury to buy his ticket?

Section 6 of the NRCoT covers this.

6.1. You must have a valid Ticket to travel before you board a train where there was the opportunity to buy one unless one of the following circumstances applies:

6.1.1. At the station where you start your journey, there is no means of purchasing a Ticket, either because there is no Ticket office open or self-service Ticket machine in working order; and where notices indicate that you are in a Penalty Fares area you purchase a Permit to Travel if there is a working Permit to Travel issuing machine at the station where you start your journey – see Condition 10 for more information about Penalty Fares; or

6.1.2. Where you are specifically permitted to board a train service by an authorised member of staff or notice of the Train Company whose service you intend to board; or

6.1.3. You have a disability and Ticket purchasing arrangements at the station you are departing from are not suitably accessible.

In these cases, you must, as soon as you are reasonably able, buy an appropriate Ticket to complete your journey. The price of the Ticket you purchase will be the same as if you had bought a Ticket at the station from which you first departed.

Although not forming part of the NRCoT the 'information box' included under this condition is intended to clarify the position.

INFORMATION: This means that you should buy a ticket from the conductor on the train if there is one available; at an interchange station provided there is sufficient time before your connecting service; or, if neither of these is possible, at your destination.

There is no guidance as to what constitutes sufficient time to purchase a ticket en-route. That said you are not required to delay your journey if the railway is unable to issue the ticket you require, using your chosen payment method. A useful guide would be to consider the station interchange time which at Machynlleth is 4 minutes. If you had 15 minutes at Machynlleth then in theory you have an additional 11 minutes in which you could purchase a ticket which in most cases would be sufficient. Having said that consideration also needs to be made for passengers who might be vulnerable or infirm and not necessarily able to get to purchase the tickets in the time available.

It might be worth contacting TfW asking what you should do if faced with this issue in future, it would be interesting to know their response.

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Starmill · 7 Sep 2019

Belperpete said:
So if I purchase a ticket on-line before I board, am I OK to then collect it at the first opportunity (Birmingham or Euston)?

No. Don't do this. To use your ticket you must collect it before boarding.

Starmill · 7 Sep 2019

Belperpete said:
She first tried to suggest I should split-ticket: she would sell me a ticket to London, and I should buy separate tickets for the rest of the journey. I refused this suggestion as it would be significantly more expensive.

Poor advice. Sone people would call this overcharging.

Belperpete said:
She then tried to persuade me to buy a Club 50 ticket to Birmingham, and then pay the excess at the booking office there. However, I was a bit dubious about that, as I have had difficulty getting New Street to issue an excess ticket in the past (and I don't believe you can get Club 50 tickets to London, so would they be able to excess a Club 50 ticket to London?), and what would happen if there wasn't time?

That's astonishingly bad advice.

Belperpete said:
I must admit I was a bit dubious about leaving my luggage unattended on the train while I crossed over the footbridge to the booking office to buy the ticket.

Again, bad advice. You're warned constantly not to do this.

Belperpete said:
I know that you are required to obtain a ticket if changing trains (provided that there is adequate time), but can you really be required to leave the train you are on to go and buy a ticket?

No.

Starmill · 7 Sep 2019

Belperpete said:
The guard was clearly not happy to let me travel all the way to New Street without a ticket (and I was also concerned what position I might be in if I refused to buy a ticket and was then caught travelling without a ticket in the Penalty Fare Zone)

It doesn't seem to me that you refused to buy a ticket. It seems to me that TfW chose not to sell the ticket you asked for by declining to provide a printer capable of doing so. In the past they could issue tickets on their trains with a cross-London marker. Now they can't. What's the cause of that? They wanted to save some money. This is their problem.

Porthmadog isn't a Penalty Fare station, so talk of Penalty Fares is irrelevant.

Belperpete · 23 Sep 2019

Apologies for the delay in replying, but I have had limited internet and proper key-board access. Just to recap, this query covers a journey starting from a Transport for Wales station with no ticket-issuing facilities and involving cross-London travel, so e and m tickets are not available, collect at station is not available, and it is not possible for the guard to sell a ticket as TFW guards are unable to sell tickets for journeys involving x-London travel.

Hadders said:
If you purchase a ticket via an online system then you must be in possession of it before you commence your journey. ..... Section 6 of the NRCoT covers this.

The section you quote specifically says that the requirement to have a ticket before you board does NOT apply if you board at a station where there is no means of purchasing a ticket.

Hadders said:
What you cannot do is travel using the booking reference number and collect your ticket en-route unless the TVM at your origin station is out of order meaning that you are unable to collect your ticket.

Again, I have to ask, where is this stated in the NRCoT?

As noted above, the generic requirement to be in possession of a ticket before boarding does NOT apply if you board at a station where there is no means of purchasing a ticket. And I can find nothing in the NRCoT that over-rides this if buying tickets on-line.

Hadders said:
Not every station has a TVM which is why you have to select the station you wish to collect your ticket from during the purchase process.

So I put Birmingham New Street as that is where I wish to collect my ticket. I have also been told by TFW staff that I should put New Street if I wish to collect at Machynlleth, as Machynlleth does not appear on the list.

What you appear to be saying is that I am perfectly entitled to board the train without a ticket, provided that I have not already paid the fare. If I have paid the fare, then I am not entitled to board. The obvious conclusion is that if I have bought a ticket on-line, then I should say nothing about it, as I am then entitled to travel without a ticket to the first interchange station in order to buy a ticket, where I can then collect the ticket that I have already bought!

But what if I do tell the guard that I have already bought a ticket on-line? He can hardly insist that I buy another ticket, as he is unable to sell me a ticket for the journey!

yorkie · 23 Sep 2019

You are entitled to board without a ticket, but TfW should be selling you the fare on board the train. We now have the bizarre situation where TfW are wanting you to buy the wrong ticket while you want to be able to collect a ticket from an interchange station. I do not believe either of these positions is correct. However if TfW customer relations agree you can collect the ticket at Birmingham, get that in writing.

If it was me, I'd state my intention to pay the fare due on the train or any other appropriate opportunity and not pay for any higher fare or combination of fares. To reinforce this right, I'd be bringing cash (and any rail travel vouchers I have) up to the value of the total sum I was expecting to pay for the journey. I would not agree to delay my journey nor would I agree to leave heavy bags unattended on the train.

Starmill · 23 Sep 2019

Belperpete said:
I have also been told by TFW staff that I should put New Street if I wish to collect at Machynlleth, as Machynlleth does not appear on the list.

How did they recommend you travel from Machynlleth to Birmingham New Street in order to collect your ticket?

Belperpete said:
The obvious conclusion is that if I have bought a ticket on-line, then I should say nothing about it, as I am then entitled to travel without a ticket to the first interchange station in order to buy a ticket, where I can then collect the ticket that I have already bought!

I would certainly not recommend this course.

Starmill · 23 Sep 2019

Belperpete said:
What you appear to be saying is that I am perfectly entitled to board the train without a ticket, provided that I have not already paid the fare.

You're entitled to buy the correct ticket for your journey, at the first available opportunity. This is in accordance with NRCoT and is no different to anywhere else.

If you cannot buy a ticket:
- At your origin station because it has no ticket office or machine
- From the guard on the first train
- At your interchange station at Birmingham New Street, because there is insufficient time onboard your train

You would be directed to buy your ticket either from the staff onboard the onward service from Birmingham New Street, or, if this is not possible, upon your arrival at London Euston.

I am not sure that I understand where the problem is arising here? If you used a different route or trains, just keep repeating the concept.

If it were me, I would refuse to pay for anything other than the correct ticket for my journey too, as this is bound to leave you out of pocket. It's wrong of any staff to ask you to pay for any ticket other than the correct one. I would probably make a complaint to customer relations if they did.

Belperpete · 23 Sep 2019

An update:
Last weekend I had to make a journey from Porthmadog to East Croydon, the return fare for which (using a Senior Railcard) should be £56.90 route via Birmingham. Once again, the guard (a different one) was unable to sell me a ticket. He insisted that I purchase a return ticket to Euston, which also cost £56.90. He said that I should go to the booking office when changing trains at Birmingham or Euston, and request an Excess ticket for the remainder of the journey, for which there should be no charge as the fares are the same.

I was unable to go to the booking office at Birmingham as I only just had time to make the connection. When I went to the booking office at Euston and explained what I had been told by the guard, I was told by two of the booking clerks there that it was not possible for them to issue an Excess ticket. I therefore had to purchase a separate ticket at a cost of £5.95 to complete my journey. I similarly explained the situation at East Croydon booking office, who also told me it was not possible to issue an Excess ticket, and I likewise had to purchase a separate ticket at a cost of £5.95 for my return journey.

The booking clerk at East Croydon told me to complain to TFW, and get them to repay the additional £11.90 I had to pay as a result of the guard selling me the wrong ticket. Which I will be doing. I will also be asking them to confirm that the correct course of action would be for the guard to let me travel without a ticket to the first interchange station where I can purchase the correct ticket for the journey.

I was told by the guard on my first trip that issuing a ticket to London and having the passenger get an excess ticket for the remainder of the journey was their standard procedure to cover this situation. So I wonder how many other passengers have also been caught out by this, and had to pay over the odds?

Belperpete · 23 Sep 2019

Starmill said:
How did they recommend you travel from Machynlleth to Birmingham New Street in order to collect your ticket?

Travelling from Porthmadog, Mac comes before New St.

Starmill · 23 Sep 2019

Belperpete said:
I was unable to go to the booking office at Birmingham as I only just had time to make the connection. When I went to the booking office at Euston and explained what I had been told by the guard, I was told by two of the booking clerks there that it was not possible for them to issue an Excess ticket. I therefore had to purchase a separate ticket at a cost of £5.95 to complete my journey. I similarly explained the situation at East Croydon booking office, who also told me it was not possible to issue an Excess ticket, and I likewise had to purchase a separate ticket at a cost of £5.95 for my return journey.

This is almost certainly a breach of consumer law :rolleyes:

Hadders · 23 Sep 2019

Belperpete said:
Apologies for the delay in replying, but I have had limited internet and proper key-board access. Just to recap, this query covers a journey starting from a Transport for Wales station with no ticket-issuing facilities and involving cross-London travel, so e and m tickets are not available, collect at station is not available, and it is not possible for the guard to sell a ticket as TFW guards are unable to sell tickets for journeys involving x-London travel.

The section you quote specifically says that the requirement to have a ticket before you board does NOT apply if you board at a station where there is no means of purchasing a ticket.

Again, I have to ask, where is this stated in the NRCoT?

As noted above, the generic requirement to be in possession of a ticket before boarding does NOT apply if you board at a station where there is no means of purchasing a ticket. And I can find nothing in the NRCoT that over-rides this if buying tickets on-line.

So I put Birmingham New Street as that is where I wish to collect my ticket. I have also been told by TFW staff that I should put New Street if I wish to collect at Machynlleth, as Machynlleth does not appear on the list.

What you appear to be saying is that I am perfectly entitled to board the train without a ticket, provided that I have not already paid the fare. If I have paid the fare, then I am not entitled to board. The obvious conclusion is that if I have bought a ticket on-line, then I should say nothing about it, as I am then entitled to travel without a ticket to the first interchange station in order to buy a ticket, where I can then collect the ticket that I have already bought!

But what if I do tell the guard that I have already bought a ticket on-line? He can hardly insist that I buy another ticket, as he is unable to sell me a ticket for the journey!

What you can't do is board the train relying on the ToD reference number and collect your ticket en-route. If you choose to purchase tickets online in advance then you must be in possession of them before you board the train. The only exception to this would be if you intended to collect your tickets at the station where you commence your journey and the ticket machine is not working.

Starmill · 23 Sep 2019

Belperpete said:
I was told by the guard on my first trip that issuing a ticket to London and having the passenger get an excess ticket for the remainder of the journey was their standard procedure to cover this situation.

Sounds to me like they made that up because they wanted your money.

As you have discovered, it is either very difficult or completely impossible to persuade ticket office staff to issue zero excesses.

Belperpete · 23 Sep 2019

Starmill said:
You're entitled to buy the correct ticket for your journey, at the first available opportunity. This is in accordance with NRCoT and is no different to anywhere else. ..... I am not sure that I understand where the problem is arising here?

So, if I buy the ticket on-line before I board, then I will have bought a ticket at the first opportunity. The question then arises: when do I have to collect it? As far as I can see, I am perfectly entitled to board the train without the ticket, as the starting station has no ticket-issuing facilities. However, I was told this is not allowed. I was querying: where does it say that this is not allowed?

Belperpete · 23 Sep 2019

Hadders said:
What you can't do is board the train relying on the ToD reference number and collect your ticket en-route. If you choose to purchase tickets online in advance then you must be in possession of them before you board the train.

You keep saying this, but where in the NRCoT does it say that? As I have already pointed out, the general requirement to be in possession of a ticket before boarding does NOT apply at a station without ticket-issuing facilities, and there are no specific conditions regarding buying on-line to over-ride that exemption.

Hadders · 23 Sep 2019

Section 6.1 of the NRCoT says that you must have a ticket to travel before you board the train unless:

- the ticket machine isn't open or TVM isn't working (section 6.1.1)

It does not say that you may board the train and collect tickets that have been purchased on-line during the journey. I appreciate that you want it so say this but it doesn't. If it did allow this then there would be nothing to stop people travelling on a reference number saying they couldn't collect their tickets.

Starmill · 23 Sep 2019

Belperpete said:
You keep saying this, but where in the NRCoT does it say that? As I have already pointed out, the general requirement to be in possession of a ticket before boarding does NOT apply at a station without ticket-issuing facilities, and there are no specific conditions regarding buying on-line to over-ride that exemption.

It seems that you chose to agree to purchase the incorrect ticket for your journey on a recent trip, on an assurance that the railway industry then decided it wasn't going to honour. So I am confused as to why you are now being confrontational at the suggestion that you might not want to try to collect your ticket part-way through your journey when you know you will be unable to collect it before boarding?

Belperpete said:
So, if I buy the ticket on-line before I board, then I will have bought a ticket at the first opportunity.

I don't see what buying online has to do with any of this. Regardless, if you buy online and then select collect at a station, you won't be able to select Porthmadog. So the entire thing seems an irrelevance. If you buy online and select ticket on departure, you are told you must collect your ticket before boarding. The email confirmation will also explain this.

Belperpete · 23 Sep 2019

Starmill said:
Sounds to me like they made that up because they wanted your money.

Quite possibly. I suspect that it may be something that one of the guards thought-up to solve the situation they have been put in, and others have copied. At least next time I can tell the guard that their solution doesn't work.

Starmill said:
As you have discovered, it is either very difficult or completely impossible to persuade ticket office staff to issue zero excesses.

It is also very difficult to persuade a guard insistent that you have to buy "a ticket" from them that you are in the right not to do so. Quoting "rules and regs" can often make the situation worse. If they decide to call BTP, you are likely to come over as the "stroppy customer". It is usually better to play along, and protest later.

Starmill · 23 Sep 2019

Belperpete said:
It is also very difficult to persuade a guard insistent that you have to buy "a ticket" from them that you are in the right not to do so.

Technically, you would insist that you must buy the correct ticket for your journey. You wouldn't say or do anything that implied that you were refusing to pay your fare. If they drew that conclusion themselves, from you insisting that you must buy the correct ticket for your journey, that would be illogical, but I wouldn't put it past a company like TfW to make illogical claims.

Belperpete said:
It is also very difficult to persuade a guard insistent that you have to buy "a ticket" from them that you are in the right not to do so. Quoting "rules and regs" can often make the situation worse. If they decide to call BTP, you are likely to come over as the "stroppy customer".

Sadly the railway industry does rather like to cast people who are acting reasonably as 'stroppy customers' when they wish to ignore the law in their favour, I agree. This is something I've experienced myself, although not in any other industry. I've never had any firm other than a rail one threaten or actually deploy the police to give me instructions when they decided they disliked my ticket (and then later admit that the ticket was indeed valid and be forced to apologise).

There are less 'rules and regs' to quote as the basic point of contract law that you cannot charge for the delivery of the same service twice. Clearly Virgin Trains and GTR were complicit with TfW in arguing that you must pay twice for the same service, or they would not allow you to travel.

Belperpete · 23 Sep 2019

Hadders said:
Section 6.1 of the NRCoT says that you must have a ticket to travel before you board the train unless: - the ticket machine isn't open or TVM isn't working (section 6.1.1)

It actually says:
6.1.1. At the station where you start your journey, there is no means of purchasing a Ticket, either because there is no Ticket office open or self-service Ticket machine in working order;
which covers a station where there is no ticket office or TVM at all.

Hadders said:
It does not say that you may board the train and collect tickets that have been purchased on-line during the journey. I appreciate that you want it so say this but it doesn't.

I agree that it doesn't say that, but then it doesn't have to. It specifically says that the requirement to have a ticket before boarding does NOT apply if the station at the start of the journey has no means of purchasing a ticket. It does NOT say that this exemption doesn't apply if you have already purchased your ticket on-line. I appreciate that YOU want it to say so but it doesn't.

furlong · 23 Sep 2019

I'd suggest an escalation to the DfT to determine whether any franchise agreement was breached and if so to ask for action to be taken against the operator(s) concerned.

For example, part of the journey involved a different operator but according to TSA 6-30 (1)

(a) An Operator which Sells Fares, or provides information about them, on a train or at an Impartial Point of Sale or an Impartial Information Centre must act fairly and impartially between Operators. Any such information that is provided must be factual, accurate and impartial.
(d) Operators must accurately Sell to Purchasers the Fares appropriate for the journey described by the Purchasers.

Did one operator (on the train) knowingly sell the OP an inappropriate fare and another fail to sell the appropriate fare (over-distance excess)?

Hadders · 23 Sep 2019

Belperpete said:
I agree that it doesn't say that, but then it doesn't have to. It specifically says that the requirement to have a ticket before boarding does NOT apply if the station at the start of the journey has no means of purchasing a ticket. It does NOT say that this exemption doesn't apply if you have already purchased your ticket on-line. I appreciate that YOU want it to say so but it doesn't.

If you purchase a ticket online but haven't collected it before you board then you haven't got a ticket!

@Starmill puts it better than me:

Starmill said:
Regardless, if you buy online and then select collect at a station, you won't be able to select Porthmadog. So the entire thing seems an irrelevance. If you buy online and select ticket on departure, you are told you must collect your ticket before boarding. The email confirmation will also explain this.

MarlowDonkey · 24 Sep 2019

Hadders said:
If you purchase a ticket online but haven't collected it before you board then you haven't got a ticket!

My local station now has a (card only) ticket machine. That gives a resolution to the issue as to whether or not it was permissible to join the train without a ticket with a view to collecting the ticket at the next station or the junction with the main line.

As it happened, I was collecting the tickets tonight for future travel and the train was in the platform. I was asked by the Guard/Conductor whether I was intending to travel, which I wasn't. The train departed before I was able to complete the ticket collection transaction.

Increasingly TOCs would like an extra fee for sending tickets in the post.

Belperpete · 24 Sep 2019

furlong said:
I'd suggest an escalation to the DfT to determine whether any franchise agreement was breached and if so to ask for action to be taken against the operator(s) concerned.
For example, part of the journey involved a different operator but according to TSA 6-30 (1)
Did one operator (on the train) knowingly sell the OP an inappropriate fare and another fail to sell the appropriate fare (over-distance excess)?

I think it reasonable to allow TFW a chance to respond before escalating it. Based on their current response times, this is likely to be a month or so.

TFW charged me the correct fare - but gave me an inappropriate ticket. I am not convinced either Virgin or Southern were in breach by refusing to give me an over-distance excess, as I don't think there is any obligation to sell over-distance excesses (unlike, for example, a first-class or different-route excess).

Haywain · 24 Sep 2019

Belperpete said:
I am not convinced either Virgin or Southern were in breach by refusing to give me an over-distance excess, as I don't think there is any obligation to sell over-distance excesses (unlike, for example, a first-class or different-route excess).

I agree that there is no obligation to sell an overdistance excess at the conclusion of the originally ticketed journey, as was the case here. It would be an appropriate excess to sell at Birmingham New Street but not at Euston.

Belperpete · 24 Sep 2019

Hadders said:
If you purchase a ticket online but haven't collected it before you board then you haven't got a ticket!

Yes I do! Just because I leave my car in a car park while I go shopping doesn't mean that I haven't got a car.

The NRCoT patently haven't been properly reviewed to take into account on-line ticketing. A bit has been tacked-on about e and m tickets, but that is it. For example, it says:
you must, as soon as you are reasonably able, buy an appropriate Ticket to complete your journey.
This could perfectly well be satisfied by getting on the train, and then buying a ticket on-line before the guard comes round. OK, you won't be in possession of the ticket, but it doesn't require that - it only says you must "buy" the ticket! There still seems to be an underlying assumption in the NRCoT that you will be in possession of a ticket once you buy it, which patently doesn't apply if you buy on-line.

Even "have before you board" is very vague - what exactly does "have" mean, particularly with respect to on-line purchases?

The important point I am making is that the NRCoT explicitly say that the requirement to have a ticket before boarding does NOT apply if the starting station does not have ticket-issuing facilities. There is no exemption - it applies to anybody and everybody, of whatever race, religion, etc., whatever they may or may not buy on-line.

Hadders said:
@Starmill puts it better than me:
If you buy online and select ticket on departure, you are told you must collect your ticket before boarding. The email confirmation will also explain this.

SOME TOCs do this, but no means all. The TOC that I used to use (EMT) certainly didn't. ATW didn't use to say it anywhere during the booking process, only in the email - which you never had to refer to anyway, as you could simply print the on-screen details at completion of booking. I am not sure what TFW do, as I haven't yet booked on-line. However, as I have previously noted, I have been told by TFW staff that it doesn't matter what station I select, and some TOCs even say this on the booking details. What station you select for collection is totally irrelevant.

Importantly, I am not aware of any TOC that specifies you must collect your ticket before boarding BEFORE you purchase the ticket. Legally, they cannot enforce a condition that has not been stated at the time of purchase.

Belperpete · 24 Sep 2019

Haywain said:
I agree that there is no obligation to sell an overdistance excess at the conclusion of the originally ticketed journey, as was the case here. It would be an appropriate excess to sell at Birmingham New Street but not at Euston.

I was told at Euston that they wouldn't issue an over-distance excess once the journey had commenced, let alone concluded!

I was under the impression that over-distance excesses were discretionary, unlike first-class and different-route excesses where the passenger is entitled to purchase them, even en-route.

Llanigraham · 24 Sep 2019

I'm finding it difficult to understand why you couldn't get the relevant tickets at Machynlleth. They still issue tickets on card stock and I have used them on the Tube in London.

MikeWh · 24 Sep 2019

Hadders said:
If you purchase a ticket online but haven't collected it before you board then you haven't got a ticket!

Belperpete said:
Yes I do!

Not on your person you haven't!

It's the same as if you left it at home. You have a ticket, but you need to be able to prove that by showing it when requested.

furlong · 25 Sep 2019

Haywain said:
I agree that there is no obligation to sell an overdistance excess at the conclusion of the originally ticketed journey, as was the case here. It would be an appropriate excess to sell at Birmingham New Street but not at Euston.

I think the test is whether or not the fare the passenger actually required was capable of being sold as an alternative to the fare the passenger actually obtained. The over-distance excess is available to deal with circumstances when the passenger couldn't obtain the fare they actually needed and instead had to get one that covered only the first part of their journey.

Unable to buy ticket

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