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Southeastern revenue staff making an appearance

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Antman

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The vast majority of SE travellers have tickets, usually in the form of season tickets; these people are commuters, and it's a commuter railway. London and return journeys at peak times are this railway's stock in trade.

SE-gated exits are at all its main London termini, and that's where the people and the money are.

No daily commuter can rely on gates being open and unmanned on a regular basis, it's just not sustainable.

Fare dodgers exist, I've seen them, but set against the big broad rivers of commuters daily paying their way, the dodgers make a small trickle.

Remember, in any one rush hour somewhere between 240 and 400 carriages pass through London Bridge, each rammed with 100 passengers, as I've shown. You need to show several substantial and sustainable flows of traffic in use constantly to reveal anything other than a tiny percentage of travellers dodging fares.

The situation at several of the larger destinations out of London like Medway towns, Dartford, Orpington and the like, is designed to deter fare dodgers. Ticket barriers at all these places, dodgers just can't rely on a sustainable means of avoiding ticket checks and barriers.

It amuses me at Lower Sydenham to see a man and his bike and four teenagers get on an offpeak service, when they likely haven't a ticket. But I haven't seen (and you haven't shown) any evidence of anything other than an unreliable opportunity for small traffic streams to avoid paying fares. For example, no Canary Wharf worker is going to go to work each day in the expectation of avoiding paying his or her fare for an up and a down journey at Woolwich Arsenal. There will be opportunities to do so, but it's not sustainable.

And the revenue lost from such streams can be nowhere near enough to fund gates at, for instance, all the ungated stations on the Hayes lines, and then man those gate lines from 5.30am to 1am the next day.

To conclude; SE captures the vast majority of revenue across its network with manned gates at most of the heavily-used destinations for most of the time.

You seem to be making a lot of assumptions here, yes many commuters do have tickets but do they cover the entire journey?

A guard was telling me that there has been a crackdown around Ashford recently with on train ticket checks but such is the lack of respect for any sort of authority nowadays fare dodgers don't even bother with a lame excuse anymore, just an attitude of 'no I haven't got a ticket and what are you gonna do about it anyway'!
 
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ComUtoR

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The benchmark for ticketless travel on Southeastern was to be set at an initial 4% with a reduction to 2.5%. Not forgetting that with penalty fares, part of those costs will be recouped.
 

sprunt

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Yes Elephant & Castle is ungated and it's likely to remain that way unless the whole place is rebuilt.

Is there any kind of station rebuild plan incorporated into the wider plans around the demolition of the shopping centre?
 

DVD

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I have used Southeastern's Sidcup line for twenty five years, the first twenty two as a peak hours commuter, the last three as a predominantly off peak traveller three or four times a week. My local stations Sidcup and New Eltham are gated, Sidcup gates seem to be manned for much of the day, New Eltham's less so. New Eltham has gates in the station building but no gates on the stairs where most passengers from down trains alight.

The next three stations, Mottingham, Lee and Hither Green, are ungated. There may be occasional ticket inspections there, although I have never observed them from the train.

I cannot remember the last on board ticket inspection I witnessed on the Sidcup line. But I am pretty sure it was well over ten years ago, probably longer.

I have also witnessed passengers doubling up to go through the gates at Charing Cross without tickets. The gate staff seem to ignore it. I do understand the risks of challenging potentially hostile fare evaders. I once asked a chap on the gates about this just after this happened and he just shrugged his shoulders.

Much to my surprise there was an onboard ticket inspection on my Sidcup line train this afternoon (the 15.48 LCX to Dartford service). Perhaps Southeastern revenue protection bosses read this this thread ?
 

hwl

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Or maybe the terms of the new direct award specify (inc. how it is paid for) for checking and blocks?
 

lancastria

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You seem to be making a lot of assumptions here, yes many commuters do have tickets but do they cover the entire journey?

A guard was telling me that there has been a crackdown around Ashford recently with on train ticket checks but such is the lack of respect for any sort of authority nowadays fare dodgers don't even bother with a lame excuse anymore, just an attitude of 'no I haven't got a ticket and what are you gonna do about it anyway'!
Just think, how many commuters would need to have bought season tickets that are short to make any measurable impact?
I can see how a commuter from a non-barrier station could buy a short ticket for regular travel but are you really telling me this is anything more than a trivial number? There would need to be 800 and 1600 in each rush hour for it to be significant enough for SE to take notice, according to an earlier poster on here. I just can't see how that's possible.
Fare dodging certainly takes place, but the totals involved are truly tiny compared with SE's daily business.
 

bionic

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There are some real experts on here, plucking statistics out of thin air of then using them to "prove" sweeping generalisations.

Assume conservatively that these 40 trains are eight cars long and carry 75 passengers per car. That's about 24,000 passengers. More realistically these trains average 10 cars and each car has 100 commuters or more. That's about 40,000 passengers. And of course the same back home in the evening.
None of these travellers will be ticketless.

Er, ok.

There's clearly fare evasion going on, but it's a tiny number. And that's my point -- the river of people getting on and off at Deptford and Greenwich at peak times are almost all heading or coming from central London, and they all have tickets.

...Right.

There are literally a hundred off some peak trains at Deptford and none of them will be fare dodgers

None of them. Okay.

For example, no Canary Wharf worker is going to go to work each day in the expectation of avoiding paying his or her fare

No, Canary Wharf is famed for the honesty and integrity of those who work there. None of them, 0% of them, not a soul among them, would ever consider evading a fare.
 

Antman

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Just think, how many commuters would need to have bought season tickets that are short to make any measurable impact?
I can see how a commuter from a non-barrier station could buy a short ticket for regular travel but are you really telling me this is anything more than a trivial number? There would need to be 800 and 1600 in each rush hour for it to be significant enough for SE to take notice, according to an earlier poster on here. I just can't see how that's possible.
Fare dodging certainly takes place, but the totals involved are truly tiny compared with SE's daily business.
Sorry but this is nonsense. Just more sweeping statements that you can't possibly substantiate because nobody knows how knows how many people aren't paying the correct fare. Or do you personally know everyone that works at Canary Wharf?
 
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Skimpot flyer

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Wasn’t the person in the infamous £43k-out-of-Court settlement case a person who worked in Financial Services in the City of London? Not in Canary Wharf, I agree, but he WAS willing to take the risk of travelling without a ticket all the way from Stonegate, merely tapping-out on Oyster to pay only the maximum daily charge?
 

lancastria

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Sorry but this is nonsense. Just more sweeping statements that you can't possibly substantiate because nobody knows how knows how many people aren't paying the correct fare. Or do you personally know everyone that works at Canary Wharf?
If you read what I've written you'll see that I recognize fare dodging takes place, and I want to put it into its correct context; which is, it's not much of a problem set againt SE's revenue and its traveller figures.
Why am I able to assert this? Because I've demonstrated that SE is a commuter railway; that most of its traffic is commuter traffic; that most commuter destinations are gated for almost all the day; that many important stations outside London used for interchange or as destinations for significant traffic -- Dartford and Lewisham for example -- are gated.
In a gated environment most of the revenue streams will be collected most of the time.
This string has identified three areas where chronic fare dodging is alleged:
1. Brixton
2. Woolwich Arsenal
3. Short ticketing among regular commuters.

I have seen evidence of at least two of these, yet I cannot see the totals of lost fares and fare dodgers in these three areas being anything more than tiny.

In the last financial year 18/19 SE had 183.2 milion passengers. Do you think fare dodging is endemic? Do you think it is significant? How many of those 183.2 million passengers are short ticketing? How many are missed altogether from the figures?

You are taking this personally. Please don't, it's not intended as such. I think you may be emotionally confused, as there's nowhere in your quote of my post where I mention Canary Wharf.
 

lancastria

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There are some real experts on here, plucking statistics out of thin air of then using them to "prove" sweeping generalisations.



Er, ok.



...Right.



None of them. Okay.



No, Canary Wharf is famed for the honesty and integrity of those who work there. None of them, 0% of them, not a soul among them, would ever consider evading a fare.

I know my assertions seem not credible to you, but they are based on reality.

Deptford and Greenwich bound passengers in the evening peak on SE services will all have tickets. How do I know this? Because they can't get on at London terminals without one. How do I know they aren't short ticketing? I don't. But if they are short ticketing, then Oyster will see this -- there will be unfinished zone 1 journeys starting at Cannon St but registered to someone who likely lives in walking distance of Deptford or Greenwich station.

Similarly, commuters into and out of London terminals will also all have tickets. How do I know this? Because there are not crowds of commuters trapped at the barriers of Cannon St or Blackfriars unable to leave the station and go to work.

And even without knowing every Canary Wharf worker I can tell you that none of them are going to work every day in the expectation of not paying a fare. I carefully worded that; if you break it down, you'll see that I mean fare dodgers will be dodging fares in the knowledge that they are likely to be caught, and in the context of Woolwich Arsenal that they will have to pass through a barrier and in so doing have to pay. This would cover short ticketers too; they have, after all, paid a fare. My point is there is no obvious large hole through which commuters pour without paying, and down which SE loses revenue.
But it is not possible to know very much about short ticketers is it?
 

Antman

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If you read what I've written you'll see that I recognize fare dodging takes place, and I want to put it into its correct context; which is, it's not much of a problem set againt SE's revenue and its traveller figures.
Why am I able to assert this? Because I've demonstrated that SE is a commuter railway; that most of its traffic is commuter traffic; that most commuter destinations are gated for almost all the day; that many important stations outside London used for interchange or as destinations for significant traffic -- Dartford and Lewisham for example -- are gated.
In a gated environment most of the revenue streams will be collected most of the time.
This string has identified three areas where chronic fare dodging is alleged:
1. Brixton
2. Woolwich Arsenal
3. Short ticketing among regular commuters.

I have seen evidence of at least two of these, yet I cannot see the totals of lost fares and fare dodgers in these three areas being anything more than tiny.

In the last financial year 18/19 SE had 183.2 milion passengers. Do you think fare dodging is endemic? Do you think it is significant? How many of those 183.2 million passengers are short ticketing? How many are missed altogether from the figures?

You are taking this personally. Please don't, it's not intended as such. I think you may be emotionally confused, as there's nowhere in your quote of my post where I mention Canary Wharf.
I am certainly not emotionally confused, whatever that means, and much of what you say makes little sense at all.
 

jopsuk

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But it is not possible to know very much about short ticketers is it?
I doubt this guy (story was previously extensively covered on these forums) who evaded to the tune of ~£43,000 is that rare, to be honest- as you say, knowing about this behaviour is hard.
 

bionic

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Well they certainly make fare evasion more difficult.

Not really. Go and stand by some busy London gates for 15 minutes and count how many people double gate. You might need a tally counter.
 

DynamicSpirit

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If you read what I've written you'll see that I recognize fare dodging takes place, and I want to put it into its correct context; which is, it's not much of a problem set againt SE's revenue and its traveller figures.
Why am I able to assert this? Because I've demonstrated that SE is a commuter railway; that most of its traffic is commuter traffic; that most commuter destinations are gated for almost all the day; that many important stations outside London used for interchange or as destinations for significant traffic -- Dartford and Lewisham for example -- are gated.
In a gated environment most of the revenue streams will be collected most of the time.
This string has identified three areas where chronic fare dodging is alleged:

I think you're probably correct that fare dodging is likely to be a small proportion of total journeys and total revenue. I think though I'd dispute that that makes it a small problem: I would strongly suspect that fare dodgers are much more likely to be people who would behave anti-socially on trains, making other passengers feel less safe. And allowing even a minority to fare-dodge feeds into a wider sub-culture that encourages people to feel they can get away with crime generally. Also, remember that even if it's only something like 2% or 3% of revenue - that can easily make the difference between a company being profitable or not. Or pay for some small-scale improvements to stations etc.

A couple of people have mentioned Woolwich Arsenal. I think it's true that there are barriers there, but the barriers are usually open in the evenings. There are sometimes RPI checks on the bridge between national rail and the DLR. I would also mention that I often change from DLR to national rail there, and there always seems to be a few people touching in or out at the Oyster Reader as they change trains - and I can't see that there would be many legitimate reasons to do that (Having a paper ticket from Woolwich Arsenal to a destination outside London and using Oyster on the DLR is the only legitimate reason I can think of, but that must be a tiny number of people).
 

joncombe

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Just a quick anecdote but I can remember when ticket gates were put in at London Victoria and the ticket machines were the old Quickfare machines with a button for each destination. Very quickly Battersea Park became by far the most worn button on the machines. I think I can guess why.
 

Antman

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Not really. Go and stand by some busy London gates for 15 minutes and count how many people double gate. You might need a tally counter.
I'm fully aware of that but they still mean a lot of people buying tickets who wouldn't otherwise bother. I don't think anybody has suggested that they eliminate fare evasion completely.
 

ScotGG

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All rail systems in London are predominantly commuter but many still have very healthy numbers of local trips. It's a growth area and why many TOCs and LU have barriers now. SE are little different in terms of usership so if it's worthwhile to have barriers across other London networks why is SE different with so few on Metro aside from terminals?

Another example is Erith. 5 years ago there was no big college which now exists next to the station. That sees students from the local area travelling in.

Take your pick with stations with similar changes regarding new homes, shops, jobs and more. Massive change the past decade inducing local journeys.
 
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paul1609

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Ticket gates do not stop people fare evading.
No but they do hugely reduce it. I was shown ticket office receipts before and after barriers were introduced at Chichester in West Sussex a relatively affluent area. The increase in revenue was shocking and would have paid for the barriers in a couple of months.
 

ScotGG

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Abbey Wood doubled i was told last year. Clearly the argument that only central London needs them and a few interchange stations is not the case.
 

tsr

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What is the point in having them then?

1. They make it easier to detect some types of fraud (eg. child tickets used by adults)
2. They are one of many types of deterrent for opportunistic fare evaders and criminals
3. They’re useful (although not foolproof) for crowd control

Where there is a culture of fare evasion, they do NOT prevent everything, although most people will purchase some sort of ticket. (Dishonest passengers can usually find some way to get a £2 single-stop ticket which lets them through, sadly.)

However, even at stations with multiple gateline staff and regular police attendance, people do often vault or push through barriers. Funnily enough, London Bridge (one of the busiest commuter stations and served copiously by Southeastern) is one of the worst major stations in the area for this type of misuse.
 

lancastria

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I think you're probably correct that fare dodging is likely to be a small proportion of total journeys and total revenue. I think though I'd dispute that that makes it a small problem: I would strongly suspect that fare dodgers are much more likely to be people who would behave anti-socially on trains, making other passengers feel less safe. And allowing even a minority to fare-dodge feeds into a wider sub-culture that encourages people to feel they can get away with crime generally. Also, remember that even if it's only something like 2% or 3% of revenue - that can easily make the difference between a company being profitable or not. Or pay for some small-scale improvements to stations etc.

A couple of people have mentioned Woolwich Arsenal. I think it's true that there are barriers there, but the barriers are usually open in the evenings. There are sometimes RPI checks on the bridge between national rail and the DLR. I would also mention that I often change from DLR to national rail there, and there always seems to be a few people touching in or out at the Oyster Reader as they change trains - and I can't see that there would be many legitimate reasons to do that (Having a paper ticket from Woolwich Arsenal to a destination outside London and using Oyster on the DLR is the only legitimate reason I can think of, but that must be a tiny number of people).
I think you make a very good point about the connection between fare evasion and about anti-social behavior.
Any investment in staff -- RPI, guards, manned ticket lines -- is the kind of expense that SE might very well want to avoid because it appears as a cost, but the benefits of having these people is not measured on a balance sheet.
I have made the point on here that on a commuter railway, which SE largely is in terms of passenger totals and revenue, fare dodging is a tiny issue if the significant streams of revenue and passengers are checked for revenue.
But it occurs to me that on SE which has 183.2m passengers a year, then most things will appear insignificant against such a huge figure.
Earlier on the string, the user commutor referenced TOC target of 4% baseline figure for fare evasion to be targeted down to 2.5%.
If you make assumptions that this has already been done, and that the 2.5% is directly relatable to passenger figures, then you get more than 3 million people dodging fares each year. Suddenly, what I described before as a tiny problem looks more serious.
But that is perspective!

Pretty much most days I see examples of fare dodging -- four teenagers waiting for an early evening train at Chiselhurst, for example, with two bikes, they haven't bought tickets they are on a lark! But they make no dint whatsoever in the passenger figures.
So it seems to me this is a matter of perspective.
From the SE perspective it has maximised revenue as efficiently as it thinks it can, and the rest is not worth the trouble and expense.
But from a passenger perspective, every time we see fare dodging it is a qualitative example of petty crime paying off and of unfairness.
 

lancastria

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All rail systems in London are predominantly commuter but many still have very healthy numbers of local trips. It's a growth area and why many TOCs and LU have barriers now. SE are little different in terms of usership so if it's worthwhile to have barriers across other London networks why is SE different with so few on Metro aside from terminals?

Another example is Erith. 5 years ago there was no big college which now exists next to the station. That sees students from the local area travelling in.

Take your pick with stations with similar changes regarding new homes, shops, jobs and more. Massive change the past decade inducing local journeys.
You make a good point about barriers on inner suburban lines. TfL put barriers in on the New Cross Gate to West Croydon line, and they are manned for most of the day. The stations feel safer, and it must be harder to dodge fares.
I can contrast this with the Hayes line. That's almost entirely SE, and most of the stations are ungated. It certainly feels less safe, and I see fare dodging on it in the evening quite often.

But this is a qualitative experience. And that's a problem; I can't prove much from it, except that it reinforces my uninformed assumptions.
I want manned barriers because it seems safer, and fairer and makes for a better travel experience. But how realistic is that viewpoint? Are the trains really unsafe? Or do I just jump to that assumption? Is fare dodging robbing the public purse, or is it the kind of low level abuse that every system experiences?
 

lancastria

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I doubt this guy (story was previously extensively covered on these forums) who evaded to the tune of ~£43,000 is that rare, to be honest- as you say, knowing about this behaviour is hard.
Yes, I agree. I think the £43k fare dodger is not alone. And by it's very nature, short ticketing is hard to know about.
It should certainly be possible for a daily commuter from somewhere an hour from London to buy an oyster zone 1 season ticket and just wing it, if the station they use is ungated and tickets are not checked regularly onboard train.
But that will have several costs; anxiety, guilt, humiliation if caught and prosecuted, and the cost of the zone 1 ticket and any penalty fares.
Anybody got any information onboard ticket checks for longer journeys? I used to use the Chatham Main Line frequently, and was always checked each way between Longfield and Bromley South. Is this typical?
 
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