Great Northern 313 Withdrawals

notverydeep said:

Assuming only one pair of diagrams have gone over to 717s today - that is HE007, HE008, HE54, then the remaining four diagrams for pairs work the following services from Moorgate after 11:00. The diagram numbers are the two single units followed by the pair diagram (actually taken from a set of 717 diagrams). I haven't seen HE51 or HE69 diagrams, so cannot be sure that these remain 313s, but they were still all last week...

• 1110 to Watton At Stone (HE023, HE024, HE62) today: seen as pair of 313s

• 1140 to Watton At Stone (HE041, HE042, HE71) today: 313049 + 313048

• 1200 to Welwyn Garden City (HE037, HE038, HE69)

• 1350 to Welwyn Garden City (HE023, HE024, HE62) today: seen as pair of 313s

• 1355 to Hertford North (HE037, HE038, HE69)

• 1420 to Welwyn Garden City (HE041, HE042, HE71) today: 313049 + 313048

• 1600 to Welwyn Garden City (HE037, HE038, HE69)

• 1610 to Hertford North (HE023, HE024, HE62) today: seen as pair of 313s

• 1640 to Hertford North (HE041, HE042, HE71) today: 313049 + 313048

• 1709 to Gordon Hill (HE001, HE002, HE51)

• 1750 to Watton At Stone (HE037, HE038, HE69)

• 1810 to Hertford North (HE023, HE024, HE62) today: seen as pair of 313s

• 1825 to Hertford North (HE041, HE042, HE71) today: 313049 + 313048

• 1832 to Welwyn Garden City (HE001, HE002, HE51)

• 2020 to Welwyn Garden City (HE037, HE038, HE69)

• 2025 to Hertford North (HE001, HE002, HE51)

• 2030 to Welwyn Garden City (HE041, HE042, HE71) today: 313049 + 313048

• 2225 to Hertford North (HE041, HE042, HE71) today: 313049 + 313048

• 2230 to Welwyn Garden City (HE001, HE002, HE51)

• 2240 to Watton At Stone (HE037, HE038, HE69)

I hope this is useful and doesn't contain any errors!

HE001, HE002, HE51 also cover some interesting early morning trains: 2R99 04:12 King's Cross to Letchworth - this is an unadvertised, presumably staff train. Does anyone know whether passengers are allowed to travel if they turn up - as the stations served are open at that time? If so, there is still technically an opportunity to traverse the direct line across Digswell Viaduct with a pair of 313s, albeit in the dark. After that, the sets runs empty to work 2J12 06:06 Stevenage to Moorgate via Herford North.

One other working continues from Stevenage on weekdays, 2J07, 0532 Stevenage to Moorgate which should be part of HE69 above. However, this might be the most likely other diagram to have gone over to 717 today or tomorrow. That is because HE54 (which as noted above is a 717 today) ends at Letchworth Carriage Sidings and forms HE69 the next day...

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313037 + 051 are on CW HE001 + 002. 313064 + 134 remain on Hornsey depot.
The 313 still retains relatively lowish Carriage working numbers, Numbers listed for examples HE051 & 069 are 717 carriage working diagrams.

HE001 + 002 - 313037 + 051 this carriage working starts at Hornsey at 03+52 5R00 Hornsey EMUD - London Kings Cross which in turn works 2R99 Staff Train ONLY 04:12 Kings Cross - Letchworth, this carriage working finishes at Welwyn GC CSD, after working 2V69 22:30 Moorgate - Welwyn GC.
HE023+ 024 - 313039 + 061 this carriage working starts at Welwyn GC, works the 04:00 Welwyn - Kings Cross, this carriage working finishes at Hertford North CHS at 19:20
HE037+038 - 313052 + 059 this carriage working starts at Letchworth CSD, works 5J07 04+50 Letchworth CSD - Stevenage to from 2J07 05:32 Stevenage via Hertford - Moorgate, this carriage working finishes at Hornsey EMUD after working 22:40 2F70 Moorgate - Watton & 23+40 5E87 Watton via Langley Junction - Hornsey EMUD, this working will be replaced as listed by member 'notverydeep'
HE041 + 042 - 313048 + 049 this carriage working starts at Hertford North CHS as 5J15 at 06+22 to form the 06:32 2J15 Hertford North - Moorgate, this carriage working finishes at Hornsey at 01:16 after working 2J83 23:33 Hertford North - Moorgate & 5E44 00+33 Moorgate - Hornsey EMUD.

2K37 0824 Welwyn Garden City to Moorgate hanging on to its 313s with 313061 and 313039 this morning (HE041, HE042 / HE71). 10 minutes walk to the station and I got soaked! HE007, HE008 / HE54 717 again as expected.

notverydeep said:

2K37 0824 Welwyn Garden City to Moorgate hanging on to its 313s with 313061 and 313039 this morning (HE041, HE042 / HE71). 10 minutes walk to the station and I got soaked! HE007, HE008 / HE54 717 again as expected.

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It's usually wetter inside a 313 than outside!

St. Paddy said:

The 04:12 is indeed a staff train and not available to the general public. The doors aren’t released at stations and staff are admitted through the single leaf cab door.

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Thanks for clarifying. One restless night last week, I contemplated coming in and seeing if I could join the train - Just as well I didn't in the end...

jon0844 said:

It's usually wetter inside a 313 than outside!

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Dry and warm(ish) this morning thankfully at least in the Moorgate end driving car of 039)...

Edit this evening: probably my last pair of 313s home after a night out: 313049 and 313048 on 2V69 2230 Moorgate to Welwyn Garden City. These are 5 minutes behind 313039 and 313061 working 2B68 2225 Moorgate to Hertford North. As noted previously 2F70, the 2240 Moorgate to Watton At Stone is a 717 for the first time on HE69 diagram (HE037 and HE038 as was)...

This morning’s pair on 2K37 (0824 WGC to Moorgate) is 313051 with 313037 which should carry on with the rest of HE041, HE042 / HE71. From last night’s observations (previous post) the consecutively numbered set 313049 and 313048 will have started at Welwyn Garden City on HE023, HE024 / HE62, leaving any two of 39, 52, 59, 61, 64 or 134 forming HE001, HE002 / HE51 (confirmed as 313s by the WGC Supervisor, for which thanks). Even down to three diagrams WGC still has three consecutive pairs of 313s on morning peak services, which depart at 0754, 0808 and 0824 ...

I have just past one pair at Hornsey of which one is 313061 and the other has high backed seats (so possibly still 313039 as yesterday).

Earlier versions of this post contained an error (I had 52 with 51 rather than 37), plus I had more sent for scrap in my mind than so far reported and as a result, jumped to a conclusion not supported by what I have observed so far - apologies to anyone misled by that!

Here is the (presumably) final 3 diagram version of the Moorgate departures still using 313s, now including the early morning workings:
0700 to Welwyn Garden City (HE023, HE024, HE62) today: 313048 + 313049 assumed
0715 to Welwyn Garden City (HE001, HE002, HE51)
0730 to Welwyn Garden City (HE041, HE042, HE71) today: 313037 + 313051
0920 to Welwyn Garden City (HE041, HE042, HE71) today: 313037 + 313051
1110 to Watton At Stone (HE023, HE024, HE62) today: 313048 + 313049 assumed
1140 to Watton At Stone (HE041, HE042, HE71) today: 313037 + 313051
1350 to Welwyn Garden City (HE023, HE024, HE62) today: 313048 + 313049 assumed
1420 to Welwyn Garden City (HE041, HE042, HE71) today: 313037 + 313051
1610 to Hertford North (HE023, HE024, HE62) today: 313048 + 313049 assumed
1640 to Hertford North (HE041, HE042, HE71) today: 313037 + 313051
1709 to Gordon Hill (HE001, HE002, HE51)
1810 to Hertford North (HE023, HE024, HE62) today: 313048 + 313049 assumed
1825 to Hertford North (HE041, HE042, HE71) today: 313037 + 313051
1832 to Welwyn Garden City (HE001, HE002, HE51)
2025 to Hertford North (HE001, HE002, HE51)
2030 to Welwyn Garden City (HE041, HE042, HE71) today: 313037 + 313051
2225 to Hertford North (HE041, HE042, HE71) today: 313037 + 313051
2230 to Welwyn Garden City (HE001, HE002, HE51)

There is also one remaining passenger train at 0506 from King's Cross to Hertford North, which is part of diagram HE023, HE024, HE62.

As described by Class315 above (thanks also for your clarifications), these three diagrams effectively work as a 3 day 'plan' (to use European Railway parlance) with Day 1 being HE001, HE002, HE51 starting at Hornsey and finishing at WGC, forming HE023, HE024, HE62 from there on Day 2 and stabling at Hertford North before forming HE041, HE042, HE71 on Day 3 returning to Hornsey at the end of that day's working. Presumably it is intended to keep this going until the weekend and return the remaining units to Hornsey over the weekend by way of diagrams that start in the appropriate location and return to Hornsey. If anyone (not who doesn't have to rely on observation) has details of what is planned for this weekend, particularly Sunday, I would be grateful for any information. Confirmation that Sunday is intended to be the last day of normal passenger workings for 313s on the GN would also be much appreciated...

What about a final class 313 charity railtour in November?

"The Newport Challenge"

Ride a class 313 behind a class 37 from Hornsey to Newport. No food, no toilets, one way trip only! Maybe put buckets in the cabs for relief and let people get off at random stations to escape. Bring your own tools to collect souvenirs en route!

Sound ideal for prostate cancer, the pee challenge!!

Meanwhile southerns soldier on in a frankly appalling state...

Mouldy window surrounds
Filthy ironing board seats with ingrained dirt and dirty feet marks
Broken PA
Shuddery acceleration
No air-con and toilets for one hour plus journeys
Overcrowded At peak times

Plus they are breaking down a lot

387star said:

Meanwhile southerns soldier on in a frankly appalling state...

Mouldy window surrounds
Filthy ironing board seats with ingrained dirt and dirty feet marks
Broken PA
Shuddery acceleration
No air-con and toilets for one hour plus journeys
Overcrowded At peak times

Plus they are breaking down a lot

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it is inevitable that a cascade of so much stock becoming available will relieve us of 313s in 2020-21

What rolling stock would you prefer to replace the 313/2s? I've heard SWR are releasing the 458/5s first, once their 701s enter traffic.

Ex SWR 455s with the 508 trailer removed?

I'll put my crayolas away now.

adc82140 said:

Ex SWR 455s with the 508 trailer removed?

I'll put my crayolas away now.

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That is a good option, considering they have been refurbished with AC motors. Maybe SWT 455s will replace the original older southern 455s?

Be good to see all PEP stock gone, ghastly damned things should have never been built, should have gone straight for Mk3 EMUs.

mic505 said:

What rolling stock would you prefer to replace the 313/2s? I've heard SWR are releasing the 458/5s first, once their 701s enter traffic.

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They'd be huge step up

Today l had 059 + 052 037 + 057 and 061+ 39 didn't see any more but did disappear for a while thought it may be my last chance for an in and out of Moorgate with 313s

D.K.TAYLOR said:

Today l had 059 + 052 037 + 057 and 061+ 39 didn't see any more but did disappear for a while thought it may be my last chance for an in and out of Moorgate with 313s

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Don't think you'll see more than that since there are only three diagrams left.

If you're at Welwyn Garden City from 0754 to 0824 you'll see all three depart successively.

D.K.TAYLOR said:

Today l had 059 + 052 037 + 057 and 061+ 39 didn't see any more but did disappear for a while thought it may be my last chance for an in and out of Moorgate with 313s

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037 was paired with 051, I know as I drove them in what appears to be my last 313 in passenger service earlier on today.

Did the 0808 WGC - Moorgate make it in today or get terminated at Finsbury Park?

a 717 broke down earlier in morning causing the knock on delays.

Failed Unit said:

Did the 0808 WGC - Moorgate make it in today or get terminated at Finsbury Park?

a 717 broke down earlier in morning causing the knock on delays.

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Two 313s failed this morning I believe. Not bad given how few are operating! The quicker they're gone the better because they're on their last legs and not getting the required attention (not that I think anyone would expect them to).

jon0844 said:

Two 313s failed this morning I believe. Not bad given how few are operating! The quicker they're gone the better because they're on their last legs and not getting the required attention (not that I think anyone would expect them to).

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But when you consider how many delay minutes their replacements have caused - I wish they were staying. The 717s were the cause of my problems getting into work this morning.

It will be a sad day when the 313s go. They are reliable when looked after. The 700 / 717 just don’t work.

have the 313s ever blocked the ECML for over 6 hours like the 7xx’s did in August? Progress hey?

Class315 said:

037 was paired with 051, I know as I drove them in what appears to be my last 313 in passenger service earlier on today.

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Cheers will amend my workings book

Failed Unit said:

But when you consider how many delay minutes their replacements have caused - I wish they were staying. The 717s were the cause of my problems getting into work this morning.

It will be a sad day when the 313s go. They are reliable when looked after. The 700 / 717 just don’t work.

have the 313s ever blocked the ECML for over 6 hours like the 7xx’s did in August? Progress hey?

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I guess by that we shouldn’t invest in new rolling stock and just patch up ancient rolling stock? Mmmm....

The 313s should have been retired over a decade ago so replacing them is long overdue!

313059 and 313052 are 2K37 this morning (presumably my penultimate 313 morning commute) on the 0824 to Moorgate. Back to the 700 on 2C13, 0727 Cambridge to King’s Cross next week (at least I can get a fast pair of 365s to Welwyn North in the evenings). 2C13 is late today and holding me up at the south end of the WGC flyover. The WGC supervisor again advised that the two previous Moorgate trains were both pairs of 313s, as per the three remaining diagrams (thanks again). I’ll post numbers if I see them...

59 and 52 put in some spirited running, especially on the longer links and the non-stop New Barnet to Alexandra Palace run, regaining from 7 late at Hatfield to 3 late at Moorgate!

notverydeep said:

313059 and 313052 are 2K37 this morning (presumably my penultimate 313 morning commute) on the 0824 to Moorgate. Back to the 700 on 2C13, 0727 Cambridge to King’s Cross next week (at least I can get a fast pair of 365s to Welwyn North in the evenings). 2C13 is late today and holding me up at the south end of the WGC flyover. The WGC supervisor again advised that the two previous Moorgate trains were both pairs of 313s, as per the three remaining diagrams. I’ll post numbers if I see them...

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I think you’re very much confused to what a supervisor does?

Just to point out but there is no such thing as a supervisor at Welwyn Garden City in much the same way there isn’t one at Gordon Hill, Letchworth GC or Hertford North.

They are simply platform staff with no staff supervisory duties so to call them supervisor is quite wrong.

If you go to Stevenage, Finsbury Park, Kings Cross then yes they do have a supervisor on duty.

I had my last ride on 313s today, on the 0754 WGC - Moorgate. The 3 in a row was broken however by yet another 717 failure, which caused the 0738 WGC - Moorgate to depart after the 0754. Made the 0754 busier than normal as it in effect had 2 train loads of passengers on it.

Sorry didn't grab the numbers.

It will be sad to see the 313s go - but nothing last forever. Lets hope they can get the 717s working reliably before too long.

Failed Unit said:

I had my last ride on 313s today, on the 0754 WGC - Moorgate. The 3 in a row was broken however by yet another 717 failure, which caused the 0738 WGC - Moorgate to depart after the 0754. Made the 0754 busier than normal as it in effect had 2 train loads of passengers on it.

Sorry didn't grab the numbers.

It will be sad to see the 313s go - but nothing last forever. Lets hope they can get the 717s working reliably before too long.

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One thing I will say from using the 700s frequently is that Thameslink or Siemens seem shy about fixing issues quickly such as broken bins, missing fire extinguishers, vandalised plug sockets, graffiti, out of order toilets, faulty air con etc

I’m not sure who’s responsible as neither seem to care which is why I hate to say it but I fear the same will happen with the Class 717s.

Course it’s also to do with where they get stabled overnight but they as in fleet really need to step up their game and fix issues more quicker as well as making the fleets far more reliable.

On the assumption that today is the last weekday of planned class 313s in normal operation, my last journey to work aboard a pair was with 313061 and 313039 on 2K37 0824 Welwyn Garden City to Moorgate.

The remaining workings should be as follows, assuming the above pair sets identified as working the other diagrams by user 37078xotTE (for which thanks again) on the TOPS thread:
1110 to Watton At Stone 313048 + 313049
1140 to Watton At Stone 313061 + 313039
1350 to Welwyn Garden City 313051 + 313037
1420 to Welwyn Garden City 313061 + 313039
1610 to Hertford North 313051 + 313037
1640 to Hertford North 313061 + 313039
1709 to Gordon Hill 313048 + 313049
1810 to Hertford North 313051 + 313037
1825 to Hertford North 313061 + 313039
1832 to Welwyn Garden City 313048 + 313049
2025 to Hertford North 313048 + 313049
2030 to Welwyn Garden City 313061 + 313039
2225 to Hertford North 313061 + 313039
2230 to Welwyn Garden City 313048 + 313049

Any information about the plan for this weekend and whether any workings from outstabling locations will see some 313s in service on Monday 30th would be much appreciated! By Diagram, 313048 + 313049 should finish at WGC Sidings and 313051 + 313037 should finish at Hertford North, so those two pairs at least will presumably work tomorrow and / or Sunday. Finally, I assume that of the four still available at Hornsey, 313064 (last built or at least highest numbered) and 313134 (nearest to original condition) are being 'held back' for the October rail tour, but perhaps 313059 and 313052 have worked their last trains...?

Failed Unit said:

It will be a sad day when the 313s go. They are reliable when looked after. The 700 / 717 just don’t work.

have the 313s ever blocked the ECML for over 6 hours like the 7xx’s did in August? Progress hey?

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Wasn't that to do with the major power cuts? You can't blame the rolling stock...

notverydeep said:

On the assumption that today is the last weekday of planned class 313s in normal operation

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Are they not going out on Monday? It would appear consistent with the way they have done previous swaps for them to be out on diagrams that start Welwyn or Hertford and finish Hornsey on Monday.

JonathanH said:

Are they not going out on Monday? It would appear consistent with the way they have done previous swaps for them to be out on diagrams that start Welwyn or Hertford and finish Hornsey on Monday.

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I have been trying to establish what they intend for Monday, as I too have seen that Tuesdays have often been the change day for diagrams. If there is a unit outstabled at Hertford North, then diagrams HE041, HE042 / HE71 will return it to Hornsey at the end of Monday and I would say this is the diagram most likely to still be 313s on Monday. However, if either of the other diagrams that have been 313s this week are 313s on Monday, then that would suggest further workings on Tuesday (and beyond the nominal 30th of September finish). If a pair outstabled at WGC, they would end up either on diagrams that have otherwise already changed to 717s or in the case of HE023, HE024 / HE042, would end up at Hertford North, meaning that in order to avoid 313 workings on Tuesday, they would have to be swapped at some point. I would expect that the units that finish at WGC tonight (048 and 049) will be worked back to Hornsey by Sunday night.

There are two AM Peak only parts of diagrams that start at and then return to Hornsey including HE001, HE002 / HE51, which is still 313s today, but the PM Peak half of this ends up outstabled at WGC. The other of these is HE54; that did go over to 717s from last Monday. There are some other start Hornsey to stable Hornsey all day diagrams, but they are all now covered by 717s. I would speculate that they have had sufficient 717s ready for all the work for a while, but that 313s have continued to provide duties for the drivers still awaiting their conversion course and that the 30th of September is roughly the point at which the last course for existing drivers starts meaning that workings for 313 only drivers are no longer needed. Having said that, I will be at WGC to see if either of the first part of HE51 or HE71 are still 313s...

No more 313s after Monday night.