Share of saving fees charged by split ticket providers

Deafdoggie · 22 Sep 2019

Moderator note: split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/trainsplit-and-crosscountry-double-reservation.192450/

yorkie said:
...A third party retailer offering a combination of tickets for one journey is likely to back you up; you'd also have the benefit of a through itinerary on one booking confirmation email that details all tickets and all trains for your journey, making it difficult for anyone who seeks to deny you your rights and making it easier for you to assert your rights....

but you do, of course, have to pay a fee. They don’t call it that, but a fee is a fee. Everyone on here says avoid Trainline as it charges fees, but trainsplit is ok as it calls them something else. Personally I check what trainsplit offers, then book on XC for no fee.

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Hadders · 23 Sep 2019

Deafdoggie said:
but you do, of course, have to pay a fee. They don’t call it that, but a fee is a fee. Everyone on here says avoid Trainline as it charges fees, but trainsplit is ok as it calls them something else. Personally I check what trainsplit offers, then book on XC for no fee.

Trainline is best avoided as they charge a fee yet the tickets they sell are exactly price as can be purchased elsewhere.

Trainsplit is different in that it searches to see if a combination of tickets is available. Of course you can do this yourself but it's quite a tiresome process, especially for someone who isn't familiar with the minutiae of ticketing details.

Trainsplit charges a % of the saving. If there is no saving then there is no fee. This is a significant difference.

Deafdoggie · 23 Sep 2019

Hadders said:
Trainline is best avoided as they charge a fee yet the tickets they sell are exactly price as can be purchased elsewhere.

Trainsplit is different in that it searches to see if a combination of tickets is available. Of course you can do this yourself but it's quite a tiresome process, especially for someone who isn't familiar with the minutiae of ticketing details.

Trainsplit charges a % of the saving. If there is no saving then there is no fee. This is a significant difference.

The tickets that trainsplit sell, like Trainlines, are the same price and the same tickets. Just with a fee added like Trainline do. Trainsplit take the leg work out of it and make it easier and charge for that, albeit not calling it a charge, and merely saying it’s a percentage of the saving. Trainline saves you going to your local station and queuing up to buy a ticket, they charge for that ease too. Although at a flat rate. Still sounds very similar to me. Just some people fall for the marketing hype of it not being called a fee with trainsplit. A charge by any other name is still a charge. People avoid buying on XC website because it’s £1 to collect tickets. People don’t like extra charges, however you describe them. Trainsplit would have a lot more business if it were free.

yorkie · 23 Sep 2019

Deafdoggie said:
The tickets that trainsplit sell, like Trainlines, are the same price and the same tickets. Just with a fee added like Trainline do. Trainsplit take the leg work out of it and make it easier and charge for that, albeit not calling it a charge, and merely saying it’s a percentage of the saving. Trainline saves you going to your local station and queuing up to buy a ticket, they charge for that ease too. Although at a flat rate. Still sounds very similar to me. Just some people fall for the marketing hype of it not being called a fee with trainsplit. A charge by any other name is still a charge. People avoid buying on XC website because it’s £1 to collect tickets. People don’t like extra charges, however you describe them. Trainsplit would have a lot more business if it were free.

Do you agree that splitting sites offer cheaper fares for many XC journeys, and at worst the same price, compared to XC for the same overall journey?

Also do you admit the fee is not paid if you do the exact same procedure you advicate - adding each ticket manually - on the splitting site?

Joe Paxton · 23 Sep 2019

I think most people who understand the value-added service that Trainsplit offers will understand and appreciate their business model.

Creating and servicing the complex algorithms that Trainsplit uses doesn't just happen by magic. Nor are its calculations done by invisible fairies. An infrastructure is needed to deliver the service.

I doubt Trainsplit is making anyone behind it into overnight millionaires.

Bletchleyite · 23 Sep 2019

Deafdoggie said:
The tickets that trainsplit sell, like Trainlines, are the same price and the same tickets. Just with a fee added like Trainline do. Trainsplit take the leg work out of it and make it easier and charge for that, albeit not calling it a charge, and merely saying it’s a percentage of the saving. Trainline saves you going to your local station and queuing up to buy a ticket, they charge for that ease too. Although at a flat rate. Still sounds very similar to me. Just some people fall for the marketing hype of it not being called a fee with trainsplit. A charge by any other name is still a charge. People avoid buying on XC website because it’s £1 to collect tickets. People don’t like extra charges, however you describe them. Trainsplit would have a lot more business if it were free.

No, it's very different. They are charging for a value-added optional service (finding splits) not simply for selling tickets. Completely reasonable to me; you can always use another site and buy them yourself having worked them out yourself. It's more like the extra fee for one of the value-added postage options such as Special Delivery.

Hadders · 23 Sep 2019

Deafdoggie said:
The tickets that trainsplit sell, like Trainlines, are the same price and the same tickets. Just with a fee added like Trainline do. Trainsplit take the leg work out of it and make it easier and charge for that, albeit not calling it a charge, and merely saying it’s a percentage of the saving. Trainline saves you going to your local station and queuing up to buy a ticket, they charge for that ease too. Although at a flat rate. Still sounds very similar to me. Just some people fall for the marketing hype of it not being called a fee with trainsplit. A charge by any other name is still a charge. People avoid buying on XC website because it’s £1 to collect tickets. People don’t like extra charges, however you describe them. Trainsplit would have a lot more business if it were free.

Trainline charge a fee for doing exactly the same as train operating sites do without charging a booking fee.

Trainsplit works out if a combination of tickets for a journey is cheaper. You can of course do this yourself if you have access to the data and spend lots of time checking out different fares.

Of course it would be better if Trainsplit didn’t charge a fee, but it’s unlikely to exist if it did.

infobleep · 23 Sep 2019

Deafdoggie said:
but you do, of course, have to pay a fee. They don’t call it that, but a fee is a fee. Everyone on here says avoid Trainline as it charges fees, but trainsplit is ok as it calls them something else. Personally I check what trainsplit offers, then book on XC for no fee.

Won't don't you skip the Trainsplit site and go straight to XC in the first place, seeing as your booking through them?

Starmill · 23 Sep 2019

Deafdoggie said:
Personally I check what trainsplit offers, then book on XC for no fee.

This is know as the 'free rider problem'.

SickyNicky · 25 Sep 2019

I can assure everyone that the costs of running TrainSplit are very high and that it is still very much a niche site. There's no way it could exist unless either (a) it charged a fee of some sort, (b) suddenly it had hundreds of thousands of bookings per day so that the low margin on selling tickets is made up for by volume or (c) it was taken over by someone with deep pockets who wanted to grow the business or maybe put it into a mainstream (or TOC) booking engine.

So a fee is needed right now, or we can't exist. That's the reality.

If you choose to use the site to do your research and then book the tickets separately, so be it. I can't stop you, and wouldn't if I could. But please consider booking the individual tickets with us by putting them into the basket separately. There'll be no fee and it'll all still be on one CTR code. That way at least we still get some commission as the result of our work.

Bletchleyite · 25 Sep 2019

Starmill said:
This is know as the 'free rider problem'.

Well known for killing off small specialist shops (like outdoors shops) by people going and taking the advice for free then purchasing elsewhere, rather than paying the slightly higher prices at the store which cover the cost of the advice.

I don't see much of a way round it, to be honest, other than charging a fee for the advice which people wouldn't go for (despite the fact that they do for say financial advice).

paul1609 · 25 Sep 2019

SickyNicky said:
I can assure everyone that the costs of running TrainSplit are very high and that it is still very much a niche site. There's no way it could exist unless either (a) it charged a fee of some sort, (b) suddenly it had hundreds of thousands of bookings per day so that the low margin on selling tickets is made up for by volume or (c) it was taken over by someone with deep pockets who wanted to grow the business or maybe put it into a mainstream (or TOC) booking engine.

So a fee is needed right now, or we can't exist. That's the reality.

If you choose to use the site to do your research and then book the tickets separately, so be it. I can't stop you, and wouldn't if I could. But please consider booking the individual tickets with us by putting them into the basket separately. There'll be no fee and it'll all still be on one CTR code. That way at least we still get some commission as the result of our work.

Is there a minimum fare that you need in order to cover the TOD fees or doesn't it work like this?

SickyNicky · 25 Sep 2019

paul1609 said:
Is there a minimum fare that you need in order to cover the TOD fees or doesn't it work like this?

Yes. But it's only one TOD fee per basket, so if you add all the tickets into one basket that's fine.

But with e-tickets, the model is totally different and it becomes economic to sell even cheap tickets.

paul1609 · 25 Sep 2019

So if i buy a standalone £10 day return should I buy it from trainsplit?

SickyNicky · 25 Sep 2019

paul1609 said:
So if i buy a standalone £10 day return should I buy it from trainsplit?

Not if you're using TOD! All retailers will make a loss on that. Wait for e-tickets (coming soon) and then, yes, please!

Tetchytyke · 25 Sep 2019

Starmill said:
This is know as the 'free rider problem'.

The one thing that incentivises me to use manual splits is seat selection, to make sure I don't have to move seats at splits (especially on XC!) If that doesn't apply (e.g. the split coincides with a change of train) I'll book through TrainSplit.

RJ · 25 Sep 2019

These sites have created a new type of customer at the ticket office.

People who get a price from the split ticketing websites (which include the fee) and ask for a ticket at that price whilst being unwilling or unable to specify the exact tickets they wish to purchase.

Last time it happened it turned out to be a mix of Anytime, Off Peak and Advance tickets split at various places en route.

It's unrealistic to expect ticket office staff to use trial and error to find the cheapest possible split, but as time goes by people are increasingly saying being sold a through ticket is being ripped off!

paul1609 · 25 Sep 2019

RJ said:
These sites have created a new type of customer at the ticket office.

A while ago I was given a destination, a price from the split ticketing website (which included the fee) and was asked to sell a ticket at that price for a single to somewhere far in the AM peak. Well I give the government price for a journey unless I'm given details of the alternative tickets desired - which there was reluctance to reveal.

Eventually he came back with the actual tickets the website was offering and I was able to sell them. It turns out it was a mix of Anytime, Off Peak and Advance tickets split at various places en route.

The whole exercise was done to avoid paying the fee for finding the savings. It's unrealistic to expect ticket office staff to use trial and error to find the cheapest possible split, but as time goes by people are increasingly saying being sold a through ticket is being ripped off!

Don't think Ive used a ticket office in the last 4 years, last time was at Waterloo to buy a Boundary Zone ticket but the TVMs do that now and Im a more proficient operator of the technology than most booking office staff sadly.

Bletchleyite · 25 Sep 2019

SickyNicky said:
Not if you're using TOD! All retailers will make a loss on that. Wait for e-tickets (coming soon) and then, yes, please!

How on earth, I wonder, have we ended up in the position where a simple online ticket sale makes a loss?

RJ · 25 Sep 2019

SickyNicky said:
I can assure everyone that the costs of running TrainSplit are very high and that it is still very much a niche site. There's no way it could exist unless either (a) it charged a fee of some sort, (b) suddenly it had hundreds of thousands of bookings per day so that the low margin on selling tickets is made up for by volume or (c) it was taken over by someone with deep pockets who wanted to grow the business or maybe put it into a mainstream (or TOC) booking engine.

So a fee is needed right now, or we can't exist. That's the reality.

If you choose to use the site to do your research and then book the tickets separately, so be it. I can't stop you, and wouldn't if I could. But please consider booking the individual tickets with us by putting them into the basket separately. There'll be no fee and it'll all still be on one CTR code. That way at least we still get some commission as the result of our work.

There's a bit of a conundrum there. A higher than average amount of people using your site will be naturally inclined towards seeking value. That means that quite a few of them won't want to pay any fees at all if they can be avoided.

I'll admit to being a hardcore value seeker by nature but even I'd just pay the fee given as you say, the splits aren't found by magic and can appreciate the work that goes into maintaining the engine.

If only there was some way to still profit from people making speculative enquiries...

Bletchleyite · 25 Sep 2019

RJ said:
If only there was some way to still profit from people making speculative enquiries...

Advertising?

Saperstein · 25 Sep 2019

Deafdoggie said:
The tickets that trainsplit sell, like Trainlines, are the same price and the same tickets. Just with a fee added like Trainline do.

Don’t agree.

The Trainline and Trainsplit are nothing alike.

Trainline charges fees that normal TOC booking sites do not for exactly the same tickets.

Trainsplit works out split tickets and is usually cheaper. No saving no fee.

Saperstein.

6Gman · 25 Sep 2019

Deafdoggie said:
Trainsplit would have a lot more business if it were free.

So would the Ritz Hotel.

But it wouldn't last for long.

UDC · 26 Sep 2019

Couldn’t they just

RJ said:
These sites have created a new type of customer at the ticket office.

People who get a price from the split ticketing websites (which include the fee) and ask for a ticket at that price whilst being unwilling or unable to specify the exact tickets they wish to purchase.

Last time it happened it turned out to be a mix of Anytime, Off Peak and Advance tickets split at various places en route.

It's unrealistic to expect ticket office staff to use trial and error to find the cheapest possible split, but as time goes by people are increasingly saying being sold a through ticket is being ripped off!

Couldn’t they just screenshot the split ticket details and say to the ticket office ‘I want this’?

Royston Vasey · 26 Sep 2019

Trainsplit taking a still small share of the saving is completely reasonable to me and if they've found me a combination which saves me money I'll buy it through them. It's a value add.

The other benefit of Trainsplit is specifying in detail the exact route, operator and changing points (even if a slower route) which the usual interfaces don't have. The ability to add two or more "via" points and exclude operators and use different routes on the outbound and return leg is unique.

Case in point Cambridge to Sheffield via Ely but only on East Midlands Trains, not XC and EMT via Leicester. It was impossible to find the traditional booking engines. And they didn't charge anything for this because there was no saving (was a straight OPR "via Ely"), but I bought from them as only they sold me the ticket and routes/reservations I really wanted.

JBuchananGB · 26 Sep 2019

SickyNicky said:
If you choose to use the site to do your research and then book the tickets separately, so be it. I can't stop you, and wouldn't if I could. But please consider booking the individual tickets with us by putting them into the basket separately. There'll be no fee and it'll all still be on one CTR code. That way at least we still get some commission as the result of our work.

I am guilty of being a free rider, because trainsplit did not offer me the best fare. I was looking for fares for a senior railcard holder to travel from Birkdale to London and come back the same day accompanied by a child. A split fare was offered for the outbound journey, but when I searched for the return trip I got a message to the effect that the railcard was not valid with the selection, but to order individual tickets.
This put me off rather, so I decided to look at the Virgin trains site, where I entered the same request, i.e. one senior railcard holder and one child single London to Liverpool. (I realised that I could buy an Anytime return Birkdale to Liverpool for the railcard holder.) This resulted in the offer of a fixed family single at a good price. So I booked everything on the Virgin site.
If trainsplit had offered me the fixed family single, they would have got the whole order.

SickyNicky · 26 Sep 2019

Yes - it's so difficult to do proper split ticket analysis where there's a mix of railcards like that. But we're working on it!

221129 · 26 Sep 2019

I am also guilty of being a free rider, unfortunately on walk up tickets for long distance journeys I'll use train split to check for splits but cant buy them so have to use a ticket office.

Blinkbonny · 26 Sep 2019

SickyNicky said:
Not if you're using TOD! All retailers will make a loss on that. Wait for e-tickets (coming soon) and then, yes, please!

Interesting, Nicky. I for one appreciate your site and have no wish to cost you money. Is there a cut-off point where a price is not economic for you to sell?

I am not a "Free-Rider," but I suspect - like many people - I plot at least ten journeys for each one that I eventually undertake! I like to explore options.

Is there no way for people such as I to pay a basic subscription? It's a tool I enjoy using and I would be devastated to lose it.

Haywain · 26 Sep 2019

Blinkbonny said:
Is there no way for people such as I to pay a basic subscription? It's a tool I enjoy using and I would be devastated to lose it.

I have to say that I would go for this sort of option. I use the site a fair bit for journey planning and occasionally for pricing, but don't buy as I get a Priv discount.

Share of saving fees charged by split ticket providers

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