Welsh Government Twenty Year 'Plan'

The Welsh Government has published a twenty year 'direction of travel' document for the railways warning that "These are not promises. They are not commitments. No funding has been allocated. But they do inform our direction of travel. They inform others of our ambitions. And, most importantly, they signal that Wales that is open to visitors and to business."

The wish-list can be read here.

https://gov.wales/written-statement-principles-public-transport-connectivity

In some ways these kind of plans are meaningless but what's interesting in this one is that the emphasis is very much on connectivity between Wales and England with 2tph from both Llandudno Junction and Wrexham to Liverpool and Manchester Airports, 6tph from Swansea to Bristol including four to Temple Meads etc etc.

It's something of a U-turn for the Welsh Government who have, up until now, concentrated on connectivity within Wales.

Wow! Thanks for posting. Some wish list. Swansea to Bristol TM in 1hr 5 mins is quite something. Maybe there’ll be a HSW.

If even half of this comes off it would be a huge improvement. The trouble with 20 year plans is that changes of government (as well as other factors) derail plans - just look at the rise and fall of electrification in the space of 5 years.

Brissle Girl said:

Wow! Thanks for posting. Some wish list. Swansea to Bristol TM in 1hr 5 mins is quite something. Maybe there’ll be a HSW.

If even half of this comes off it would be a huge improvement. The trouble with 20 year plans is that changes of government (as well as other factors) derail plans - just look at the rise and fall of electrification in the space of 5 years.

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Of course! I just find it interesting in terms of the way the Welsh Government are thinking. Connectivity between the two sides of the Severn Sea (Welsh version) or Bristol Channel (English version) is shockingly bad and there seems to be some momentum to change things.

Interesting to see that Shrewsbury is down as a regional interchange, but Chester is not. Lots of interest in there, but as they say it is aspiration more than anything else! And in that respect very typical of a lot that comes out of WG.

Phil from Mon said:

Interesting to see that Shrewsbury is down as a regional interchange, but Chester is not. Lots of interest in there, but as they say it is aspiration more than anything else! And in that respect very typical of a lot that comes out of WG.

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Chester will be a Regional Interchange by virtue of the combined services from various WG-sponsored directions.
Odd that airports get priority over the main city region, although only Liverpool has its airport prior to the city centre station.
This one might be quite hard to deliver: Direct connectivity between Cardiff Central and all peer Core Cities across GB
First define Cardiff's peer core cities...

LNW-GW Joint said:

Odd that airports get priority over the main city region

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Not so odd if you think about how "everything must go to Manchester Airport" is so popular on the forum!

LNW-GW Joint said:

First define Cardiff's peer core cities...

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I persume they're the other members of the "UK Core Cities Group" namely Brum, Bristol, Glagow, Leeds, Liverpool, Manchester, Newcastle, Nottingham & Sheffield. It's odd that Edinburgh isn't there.

Tomos y Tanc said:

I persume they're the other members of the "UK Core Cities Group" namely Brum, Bristol, Glagow, Leeds, Liverpool, Manchester, Newcastle, Nottingham & Sheffield. It's odd that Edinburgh isn't there.

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Brum, Bristol, Liverpool (soon), Manchester and Nottingham have though services.

Others are one change at Cheltenham or Birmingham New Street.

Tomos y Tanc said:

I persume they're the other members of the "UK Core Cities Group" namely Brum, Bristol, Glagow, Leeds, Liverpool, Manchester, Newcastle, Nottingham & Sheffield. It's odd that Edinburgh isn't there.

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Edinburgh, like London and Cardiff, are capital cities.

Not mutually exclusive. Cardiff is considered a core city.

One mention of Mid-wales and that is making Shrewsbury a regional interchange. Does the cambrian stay hourly? 4 tph between Shrewsbury and Wrexham?

The connectivity within our City Regions and our development of the South Wales Metro, and plans for the North-east Wales Metro and the Swansea Bay Metro is therefore critical to increasing our GVA and our prosperity.

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Swansea Bay Metro? I'm all for a metro system for Swansea, but I think of it as the western extremity of what they call the 'South Wales Metro' and I would call the 'South East Wales Metro'. Because, to me at least, South Wales is divided into South East Wales (east of the Loughor) and South West Wales (west of the Loughor). That said, even though it's the 'South East Wales Metro' I do think it would make sense for it to run out to Llanelli (even though that is in South West Wales).

A potential problem with the Swansea element of said metro however is that there's little space at Swansea High Street for trains from the Vale Of Neath line etc. There is the stub of a former viaduct along the side of the station but at its narrowest point that only looks wide enough for double-track without a platform. Other parts of it might just squeese in double-track but with a platform on one side only. Thus, I wonder what the maximum throughput of a Penryn-style platform arangement would be. With the track reducing to single through the narrow part of the viaduct, the physical platform could run the whole length of the station but operationally divided into two single platforms (one at each end).

In South-west Wales, journey times to a regional Interchange shall be no more than 60 minutes.

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This statement does come under the 'urban/local' section rather than 'regional', so by 'South-west Wales' they might just mean Llanelli to Carmarthen. But if it doesn't, surely the only way of getting Pembroke and Pembroke Dock within an hour of Carmarthen would be by putting on an express bus service that goes from Pembroke Dock to Pembroke (or perhaps vice-versa) then non-stop to Carmarthen bypassing all the towns and villages along the way.

How many trains can run through the Severn Tunnel per hour currently? Two of the Bristol services appear to be Parkway services so already sorted with the London services so whilst not a huge increase how close is the tunnel to capacity?

Chepstow is shown on maps as the eastern limit of the metro and has a commitment for 1 tph from TfW with 1 tph currently provided by XC, how do they plan on increasing this to 4 tph, would they just run through to Gloucester and use the bay to turn back or possibly a new bay on the southern side of Chepstow? They've already got the plans for access to the station from that side to make the station accessible.

^ Is there a restriction to how many trains in the tunnel at one time, like the Totley tunnel?

Only one block section and moreover if a hazardous train (eg oil) is in the tunnel then the opposite line can not be used.

I seem to recall the capacity is around 7 or 8 per hour.

The oil trains from Milford Haven do not go through the Severn Tunnel. (They are going to a terminal near Yate). So, they go via the Swansea District Line and to avoid the Severn Tunnel, go via Lydney & Gloucester. Here is an example of one than ran this morning:>https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H19206/2019/09/27/advanced

It is far more desirable for any trains from south Wales heading up the north Severnside line via Lydney to reach Cheltenham rather than Gloucester in order to have a connection with the Cross Country Trains on the run between the south-west & Birmingham and the north-east. Some would argue that it would be handy if the Transport for Wales Trains could be extended to Ashchurch (for Tewkesbury), Worcester, Droitwich and terminate at Kidderminster in order to provide these towns with better links to the south-west (change at Cheltenham) as well as a direct link to south Wales.

Of course, what would be even more desirable is to have direct Inter City Trains from south Wales to Gloucester, Birmingham and on to York & Newcastle.

I’ve been on a train held outside the tunnel where the guard has announced that it was because of an oil train coming the other way. And I notice the Milford Haven to Theale train goes via the tunnel, so clearly not all are routed via Gloucester.

I agree that the return of proper IC services between Cardiff and Birmingham would be a big step forward and is one of the more achievable aspirations in the 20 year plan.

Envoy said:

The oil trains from Milford Haven do not go through the Severn Tunnel. (They are going to a terminal near Yate). So, they go via the Swansea District Line and to avoid the Severn Tunnel, go via Lydney & Gloucester. Here is an example of one than ran this morning:>https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H19206/2019/09/27/advanced

It is far more desirable for any trains from south Wales heading up the north Severnside line via Lydney to reach Cheltenham rather than Gloucester in order to have a connection with the Cross Country Trains on the run between the south-west & Birmingham and the north-east. Some would argue that it would be handy if the Transport for Wales Trains could be extended to Ashchurch (for Tewkesbury), Worcester, Droitwich and terminate at Kidderminster in order to provide these towns with better links to the south-west (change at Cheltenham) as well as a direct link to south Wales.

Of course, what would be even more desirable is to have direct Inter City Trains from south Wales to Gloucester, Birmingham and on to York & Newcastle.

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The oil terminal is at Westerleigh and in order to run straight in trains have to run from the Gloucester direction

Brissle Girl said:

I agree that the return of proper IC services between Cardiff and Birmingham would be a big step forward and is one of the more achievable aspirations in the 20 year plan.

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What would this entail? I assume that a 'proper IC service' would still call at Newport, Gloucester, Cheltenham and maybe Worcestershire Parkway. Do Lydney and Chepstow lose their through trains to Birmingham?

Does replacing 170s with Voyagers make it a 'proper IC service' or is it about track works that reduce journey times?

JonathanH said:

What would this entail? I assume that a 'proper IC service' would still call at Newport, Gloucester, Cheltenham and maybe Worcestershire Parkway. Do Lydney and Chepstow lose their through trains to Birmingham?

Does replacing 170s with Voyagers make it a 'proper IC service' or is it about track works that reduce journey times?

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If it's not clear from the document what the proposals would entail (or if anyone wishe to propose alternatives), people are more than welcome to post their own suggestions in the Speculative Ideas section

Edit: there is a thread here for suggestions for infrastructure improvements https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...eded-to-achieve-wags-twenty-year-plan.192795/ ; feel free to create another if there are any other aspects which anyone has any ideas for.

Envoy said:

It is far more desirable for any trains from south Wales heading up the north Severnside line via Lydney to reach Cheltenham rather than Gloucester in order to have a connection with the Cross Country Trains on the run between the south-west & Birmingham and the north-east. Some would argue that it would be handy if the Transport for Wales Trains could be extended to Ashchurch (for Tewkesbury), Worcester, Droitwich and terminate at Kidderminster in order to provide these towns with better links to the south-west (change at Cheltenham) as well as a direct link to south Wales.

Of course, what would be even more desirable is to have direct Inter City Trains from south Wales to Gloucester, Birmingham and on to York & Newcastle.

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or have the Bristol XC trains call at Gloucester, giving interchange with Stroud trains.
TfW could cut back existing services to Gloucester, & run a more intensive service.

JonathanH said:

What would this entail? I assume that a 'proper IC service' would still call at Newport, Gloucester, Cheltenham and maybe Worcestershire Parkway. Do Lydney and Chepstow lose their through trains to Birmingham?

Does replacing 170s with Voyagers make it a 'proper IC service' or is it about track works that reduce journey times?

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Newport I'm sure. But perhaps those stations would instead have services up to Worcester or slower to Birmingham - with the fast heading onwards to Nottingham - again accelerated as part of the Midland plan.