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New Chester to Leeds service

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Bovverboy

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When the third rail was extended to Hooton (in the mid-1980s, I think), didn't the residual diesel service do Chester-Hooton-Helsby?
 

Camden

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There are some very key, local differences between the 1980s and today though.

In employment pull terms, both the office area around Liverpool John Lennon and the employment scenes in Warrington and Manchester are far more likely to attract commuters.

Additionally, the services to connect to at Helsby are now much improved and more frequent.

Along with the benefits to Ellesmere Port and other south Wirral locations, the level of connections are such that a half hourly Merseyrail service may even trigger commercial interest in Ellesmere Port itself. The level of services would be such that I expect a parkway development off the M56 at Helsby would be very popular, if it was physically feasible to build it.

A link in the 80s would have been serving only the residual remaining market, whereas a link today will be building economic value in a number of ways.
 

frodshamfella

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There are some very key, local differences between the 1980s and today though.

In employment pull terms, both the office area around Liverpool John Lennon and the employment scenes in Warrington and Manchester are far more likely to attract commuters.

Additionally, the services to connect to at Helsby are now much improved and more frequent.

Along with the benefits to Ellesmere Port and other south Wirral locations, the level of connections are such that a half hourly Merseyrail service may even trigger commercial interest in Ellesmere Port itself. The level of services would be such that I expect a parkway development off the M56 at Helsby would be very popular, if it was physically feasible to build it.

A link in the 80s would have been serving only the residual remaining market, whereas a link today will be building economic value in a number of ways.

I think also Ince/Elton would have greater need today.
 

Meerkat

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There is business/office development on the refinery site isn’t there, with loads of space for expansion? Surely a market to link that directly to all the housing along to Birkenhead, and via a change to Warrington/WCML or Chester/North Wales.
 

frodshamfella

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Out of curiosity just took the 17.48 Runcorn East to Ellesmere Port. Surprised a few passengers remained on train after Helsby. I got off at Ince and Elton with another passenger.
Now waiting for 18.30 back...no information of timings at all on this station. In fact the timetable stand which I remember having a poster with times looks pretty much like its been disassembled . More litter on the tracks than there are passengers, obviously this station neglected.

2 passengers already on from Ellesmere Port on the return.
 
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Gareth

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The problem with Ellesmere Port - Helsby is as much down to its length as lack of demand.

I'm sure an hourly shuttle with a cheap & cheerful Vivarail-type unit would be ideal in theory and adequately serve currently suppressed demand. However, it takes less than 15 minutes to traverse the line, meaning the single unit and crew would spend most of the working hour sitting at one of the termini. It wouldn't justify the operational costs. You could double the frequency but there's no way demand would justify 2tph and there would still be pretty long layovers each end.

An Ellesmere Port - Lime Street service could probably work, now that the Halton Curve is fully operational, for an hourly service run with two units. Not sure the demand is there for that though.
 

mrcaa

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The problem with Ellesmere Port - Helsby is as much down to its length as lack of demand.

I'm sure an hourly shuttle with a cheap & cheerful Vivarail-type unit would be ideal in theory and adequately serve currently suppressed demand. However, it takes less than 15 minutes to traverse the line, meaning the single unit and crew would spend most of the working hour sitting at one of the termini. It wouldn't justify the operational costs. You could double the frequency but there's no way demand would justify 2tph and there would still be pretty long layovers each end.

An Ellesmere Port - Lime Street service could probably work, now that the Halton Curve is fully operational, for an hourly service run with two units. Not sure the demand is there for that though.
I think the plan was to fit batteries on the new Merseyrail trains and extend the Ellesmere Port services to start at Helsby but I believe they haven’t managed to engineer that solution unfortunately.
 

SteveM70

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The problem with Ellesmere Port - Helsby is as much down to its length as lack of demand.

I'm sure an hourly shuttle with a cheap & cheerful Vivarail-type unit would be ideal in theory and adequately serve currently suppressed demand. However, it takes less than 15 minutes to traverse the line, meaning the single unit and crew would spend most of the working hour sitting at one of the termini. It wouldn't justify the operational costs. You could double the frequency but there's no way demand would justify 2tph and there would still be pretty long layovers each end.

An Ellesmere Port - Lime Street service could probably work, now that the Halton Curve is fully operational, for an hourly service run with two units. Not sure the demand is there for that though.

One unit providing an every 40 minutes / 3tp2h service would surely work?
 

Bovverboy

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The problem with Ellesmere Port - Helsby is as much down to its length as lack of demand.

An Ellesmere Port - Lime Street service could probably work, now that the Halton Curve is fully operational, for an hourly service run with two units. Not sure the demand is there for that though.

An hourly all-stations Ellesmere Port to Liverpool Lime Street via Warrington Bank Quay service could be provided by 3x769, with a very comfortable quarter-hour turnaround at each end. This compares with the present hourly (most of the day) Warrington Bank Quay to
Liverpool Lime Street service operated by 2x319/323. Whatever service is proposed for Ellesmere Port - Helsby, whether it's a standalone or an extension of some other service, it's always going to need at least one additional unit.
The above would, I think, be far more satisfactory than, say, a half-hourly Ellesmere Port to Helsby shuttle. I mean, look at the links which would be created, not least to/from Warrington Bank Quay, from where you can get trains to half the country.
 

Eccles1983

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I don't know where the funding or units are coming from for this idea.

Never mind the influx of passengers. The best thing that could be done is somehow Ellesmere port to get a link to Cheshire oaks.

Otherwise I don't think the numbers are there to make this even close to viable.
 

158756

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One unit providing an every 40 minutes / 3tp2h service would surely work?

Might be alright for people living in Helsby, but any connections there would be with routes running on a standard hourly pattern, so a 40 minute frequency wouldn't offer decent connections much of the time.
 

kieron

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I’ve never heard them mention one whenever it’s been cancelled. Just expect you to get a TfW or Chester Northern and then walk from Helsby I guess.
If the morning train's cancelled, you can ask what to do in the ticket office in Ellesmere Port. There are other buses and trains around, even if they can't arrange a taxi to Warrington at that time of the morning.

Now, if you were in Stanlow and Thornton station and found that your train was cancelled, walking may well turn out to be the best option.
It would be much better for Ellesmere Port to get that Merseyrail extension to Helsby.
It's a nice idea, but it could be a lot of money for not that much benefit. While the poor service drives down patronage, the fact that there's only an hourly bus between Ellesmere Port and Helsby suggests that there may not be a huge amount of suppressed demand for a more frequent rail service to tap into.
 

LOL The Irony

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I don't know where the funding or units are coming from for this idea.

Never mind the influx of passengers. The best thing that could be done is somehow Ellesmere port to get a link to Cheshire oaks.

Otherwise I don't think the numbers are there to make this even close to viable.
Free bus between the two?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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The best thing that could be done is somehow Ellesmere port to get a link to Cheshire oaks.

Stagecoach X1 (Liverpool-Chester) links Ellesmere Port bus station with Chester bus and railway stations, calling at Cheshire Oaks.
Every 20 minutes.
https://tiscon-maps-stagecoachbus.s... Wirral/Sept 19 Wirral/Service1-X1-Sept19.pdf

[58 years ago, I was a vac student bus conductor on its predecessor, Crosville C1/C3 Chester-Birkenhead Woodside.
No Cheshire Oaks then.
But there was an hourly train Birkenhead-Ellesmere Port-Helsby, which usually failed to connect with anything further east...]
 

gc4946

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I've always puzzled why the Calder Valley stoppers extend beyond Man vic rather than the express.
As for non stop Bradford to Hebden Bridge the catchment area of Sowerby bridge exceeds both Hebden Bridge and Todmordon combined but from December has significant service cuts.
K

I think Northern should revert to longstanding past practice of half hourly Man Vic-Leeds all stations services (hourly evenings/Sundays) with the Chester trains superimposed as limited stop services between those two places.
 

gc4946

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An hourly all-stations Ellesmere Port to Liverpool Lime Street via Warrington Bank Quay service could be provided by 3x769, with a very comfortable quarter-hour turnaround at each end. This compares with the present hourly (most of the day) Warrington Bank Quay to
Liverpool Lime Street service operated by 2x319/323. Whatever service is proposed for Ellesmere Port - Helsby, whether it's a standalone or an extension of some other service, it's always going to need at least one additional unit.
The above would, I think, be far more satisfactory than, say, a half-hourly Ellesmere Port to Helsby shuttle. I mean, look at the links which would be created, not least to/from Warrington Bank Quay, from where you can get trains to half the country.

I vaguely remember a Liverpool Lime St-Ellesmere Port (or Hooton) service running in the early 90s before privatisation via Warrington BQ and Earlestown.
 

30907

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I vaguely remember a Liverpool Lime St-Ellesmere Port (or Hooton) service running in the early 90s before privatisation via Warrington BQ and Earlestown.
Yes it did, once the Earlestown curve reopened (can't find a date quickly) - that's how the the unit for the E P shuttle was provided once the third rail was extended.
 

Bovverboy

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I vaguely remember a Liverpool Lime St-Ellesmere Port (or Hooton) service running in the early 90s before privatisation via Warrington BQ and Earlestown.

Even now, there's a 0510 SuX Liverpool Lime Street - Ellesmere Port. From there it does a return Helsby then 0715 Leeds. Prior to the creation of the Leeds service it did two return Helsbys then went ECS from either Helsby or Warrington Bank Quay, I can't remember now, to one of the Wigan stations from where it a service to Manchester Victoria, I think. Prior to it being the 0510 ex-Lime Street it used to run ECS to Warrington Bank Quay and then would do 0549 Warrington Bank Quay - Ellesmere Port.
The line from Hooton to Ellesmere Port was electrified as recently as 1994, for a few years prior to that the service to Ellesmere Port was half-hourly Chester-Hooton-Helsby, connecting at Hooton with the electrics, of course. I can well imagine that the first train from Helsby would be supplied from Liverpool (as it would avoid an awkward manoeuvre at Helsby, for one thing), but I can't vouch for whether it would have run in service or not.
 

frodshamfella

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I vaguely remember a Liverpool Lime St-Ellesmere Port (or Hooton) service running in the early 90s before privatisation via Warrington BQ and Earlestown.

Yes I have an idea there was such a service. However to my mind the best thing for this section of the line is for Merseyrail to have it, terminating at Helsby, thereby allowing onward connections. I noticed yesterday evenings Northern service to Ellesmere Port was cancelled saying due to lake of crews.
 
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mrcaa

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Yes I have an idea there was such a service. However to my mind the best thing for this section of the line is for Merseyrail to have it, terminating at Helsby, thereby allowing onward connections. I noticed yesterday evenings Northern service to Ellesmere Port was cancelled saying due to lake of crews.
It’s cancelled so often I’m surprised anyone uses it west of Helsby. How could you make it your commute when it may be cancelled, you have to wait the best part of an hour for the next train to Helsby (since there’s no time to get to Piccadilly for the 17:15) then find some way to get to Ellesmere Port from there? I’m not even sure if via Liverpool Lime Street is a permitted route from Ellesmere Port but that would take ages anyway.
 

Old Yard Dog

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Ellesmere Port to Manchester is permitted via Liverpool (via Earlestown or Warrington Central) or Chester (via Warrington Bank Quay, Northwich or Crewe). I use all of these routes fairly regularly apart from Northwich which is really, really slow. They take the best part of two hours unless you get a decent connection into a non-stop Lime Street - Victoria train.
 

theblackwatch

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Hopefully a full introduction and not the token single diagram as they appear to have initially introduced on other routes.
 

Llama

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Not every Chester-Leeds service is diagrammed a 195 from Monday but if I remember rightly at least ten per day are. I'm not sure about the Ellesmere Ports, they're worked by Lime Street crew west of Manchester.
 
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