East Midlands franchise won by Abellio

Helvellyn · 28 Aug 2019

johnw said:
Maybe 5 coach units are what is required for the non stop service from Leicester. You only have to watch them coming through Wellingborough station non stop - waiting for the stopping service a few minutes behind half full, whilst the stopping service is full.

Wellingborough being down graded to second hand EMUs on the slow line and stopping at both Luton’s is a disgrace. And no more northbound services unless you fancy a day trip to Corby.

Abelio need to reduce the ticket prices then from Wellingborough to non intercity prices.

Well with everything stopping at Bedford definitely cheaper to split ticket Wellingborough-Bedford/Bedford-London Thameslink - with the added benefit you can change at St Pancras and get as far as London Bridge for less than Wellingborough-London Terminals.

ChrisC said:
Also it’s on the Nottingham HST services where most of the cheaper Advance fares are available off peak. I always travel to and from London on the Nottingham HST’s making use of good value 1st Class advances around lunchtime and I have found the 1st Class quite full. It would be a big disappointment if due to overcrowding on 5 carriage trains these cheaper Advance fares disappear or become harder to obtain.

I say cheaper Advance fares, but over the last few years with EMT these have risen quite a bit in price and the cheapest are now only available for a few trains around lunch time. These fares may be cheaper but do not compare with the wide availability of extremely cheap advances available on other routes like Birmingham to London.

Unfortunately that is supply and demand. If prices are going up EMT (and now EMR) are filling the trains. Very low prices exist to attract people and reduce the amount of empty air being carted around.

Some people - and not saying this is you - think all trains should be run at maximum length with super cheap Advance tickets in the off peaks.

RailUK Forums

Class 170101 · 28 Aug 2019

Trains at maximum length in the off peak is unlikely however not impossible and is sometimes justified. Demand should not be priced off the railway just because someone doesn't want to fill it.

Aictos · 28 Aug 2019

Meerkat said:
Won’t EMR Electrics be a bit of a confusing name once the bi-modes are all leaving London on electric?

Not really because the Nottingham and Sheffield services are marketed as EMR Intercity and the Corby services are marketed as EMR Electrics so not at all confusing.

ainsworth74 · 29 Aug 2019

Enough bickering. Discuss the topic at hand whilst behaving in line with the Forum Rules or the Forum Staff will have to look at taking further action.

yorksrob · 26 Sep 2019

I see from Modern Railways that EMR have confirmed the 'plan' to replace all HST's by the end of December 2020 with 180's and cascaded 222's.

Oh dear.

Bletchleyite · 26 Sep 2019

yorksrob said:
I see from Modern Railways that EMR have confirmed the 'plan' to replace all HST's by the end of December 2020 with 180's and cascaded 222's.

Oh dear.

221s from West Coast I guess you mean?

180s will be a disaster.

yorksrob · 26 Sep 2019

Bletchleyite said:
221s from West Coast I guess you mean?

180s will be a disaster.

There was no mention of 221's from West Coast. Just 222's displaced by the Corby electrics.

LowLevel · 26 Sep 2019

I love the quote from the interim MD regarding there being no DCO or DOO in the new franchise "it's lovely, it's nice not to have to deal with that issue" :oops:

RealTrains07 · 26 Sep 2019

Bletchleyite said:
221s from West Coast I guess you mean?

180s will be a disaster.

You can bet XC will take the 221s since they already have 221s anyway

cactustwirly · 26 Sep 2019

yorksrob said:
I see from Modern Railways that EMR have confirmed the 'plan' to replace all HST's by the end of December 2020 with 180's and cascaded 222's.

Oh dear.

But there isn't 9 sets of Cascaded 222s and 180s is there?

There's a shortfall of 2 units, plus a 4 car 222 doesn't have enough capacity to replace a HST

RealTrains07 · 26 Sep 2019

cactustwirly said:
But there isn't 9 sets of Cascaded 222s and 180s is there?

There's a shortfall of 2 units, plus a 4 car 222 doesn't have enough capacity to replace a HST

Exactly abellio haven’t thought things through.

yorksrob · 26 Sep 2019

cactustwirly said:
But there isn't 9 sets of Cascaded 222s and 180s is there?

There's a shortfall of 2 units, plus a 4 car 222 doesn't have enough capacity to replace a HST

There certainly aren't. That's precisely the problem.

I suppose from a personal point of view, at least the new trains on the ECML will have bedded in by the time this fiasco plays out.

Bletchleyite · 26 Sep 2019

LowLevel said:
I love the quote from the interim MD regarding there being no DCO or DOO in the new franchise "it's lovely, it's nice not to have to deal with that issue"

Will the 360s be conventionally operated (guard release and close)? Surprises me given that they were (I think?) DOO in their former life, but yes, it'll make things easier for everyone not to have to open that particular Regenwurmdose...

Alfie1014 · 26 Sep 2019

They like the 321s on GA operate with guards north of Colchester.

swt_passenger · 26 Sep 2019

Just wondering, are thoughts about HST replacement allowing for present Leeds services? IIRC Leeds wasn’t in the new franchise service specification. (ITT.) Would that make much difference?

cactustwirly · 26 Sep 2019

swt_passenger said:
Just wondering, are thoughts about HST replacement allowing for present Leeds services? IIRC Leeds wasn’t in the new franchise service specification. Would that make much difference?

The Leeds services are only there to get the sets to and from Neville Hill

LowLevel · 26 Sep 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Will the 360s be conventionally operated (guard release and close)? Surprises me given that they were (I think?) DOO in their former life, but yes, it'll make things easier for everyone not to have to open that particular Regenwurmdose...

360s have always been operated both ways but they require mirrors or platform staff for DOO operation.

swt_passenger · 26 Sep 2019

cactustwirly said:
The Leeds services are only there to get the sets to and from Neville Hill

That’s what I’ve always understood, but although Leeds wasn’t mentioned in the ITT at all I don’t think we’ve seen the future agreed train service spec yet?

ohgoditsjames · 26 Sep 2019

cactustwirly said:
The Leeds services are only there to get the sets to and from Neville Hill

Losing it would be a blow for the connectivity between Sheffield and Leeds. Leeds to Sheffield should have better services than it does, doesn’t need to lose any!

43074 · 26 Sep 2019

cactustwirly said:
But there isn't 9 sets of Cascaded 222s and 180s is there?

There's a shortfall of 2 units, plus a 4 car 222 doesn't have enough capacity to replace a HST

The Mainline timetable is being recast in December 2020 to its end state, so in terms of numbers together the 360s, 222s and 180s will be sufficient to replace the HSTs on paper, by reduced turnaround times and journey times. The concern should be peak overcrowding, trains like the 1631 from St Pancras are already first stop Leicester and regularly run full and standing, but off peak should be fine.

Still a mistake to order the new units as 5 car though.

yorksrob · 26 Sep 2019

43074 said:
The Mainline timetable is being recast in December 2020 to its end state, so in terms of numbers together the 360s, 222s and 180s will be sufficient to replace the HSTs on paper, by reduced turnaround times and journey times.

I'll believe that when I see it.

ohgoditsjames · 26 Sep 2019

43074 said:
The Mainline timetable is being recast in December 2020 to its end state, so in terms of numbers together the 360s, 222s and 180s will be sufficient to replace the HSTs on paper, by reduced turnaround times and journey times. The concern should be peak overcrowding, trains like the 1631 from St Pancras are already first stop Leicester and regularly run full and standing, but off peak should be fine.

Still a mistake to order the new units as 5 car though.

You’d think by now that TOC’s would know not to order short units yet the same mistake continues to be made across the country.

InTheEastMids · 26 Sep 2019

yorksrob said:
I'll believe that when I see it.

Well EMR thinks it can run the Nottingham/Sheffield services with 33 5 car 80x units (165 carriages). I doubt it has over-ordered.

This proposal is to deliver the timetable with 31 units and 163 carriages, 4 of which are not noted for their reliability and are not compatible with the rest of the fleet.

The 7-cars can't run in multiple either, so it's a less flexible fleet than the one they've ordered.

This feels... brave.

43074 · 26 Sep 2019

yorksrob said:
I'll believe that when I see it.

Well the ex Grand Central HSTs only really have one diagram sometimes shared between two sets, 3 of the full rakes are spare on Cricklewood off peak anyway and used in the peaks on services which will be relieved by the 360s. The current timetable isn't particularly efficient so removing some of those inefficiencies will go a long way to cover the shortfall. As I said, there will be crowding but there are enough on paper to replace them which is the objective.

cactustwirly · 26 Sep 2019

43074 said:
Well the ex Grand Central HSTs only really have one diagram sometimes shared between two sets, 3 of the full rakes are spare on Cricklewood off peak anyway and used in the peaks on services which will be relieved by the 360s. The current timetable isn't particularly efficient so removing some of those inefficiencies will go a long way to cover the shortfall. As I said, there will be crowding but there are enough on paper to replace them which is the objective.

But it doesn't work in practice since a 4 or 5 car 222 has knowhere near the capacity of a HST set

yorksrob · 26 Sep 2019

InTheEastMids said:
Well EMR thinks it can run the Nottingham/Sheffield services with 33 5 car 80x units (165 carriages). I doubt it has over-ordered.

This proposal is to deliver the timetable with 31 units and 163 carriages, 4 of which are not noted for their reliability and are not compatible with the rest of the fleet.

The 7-cars can't run in multiple either, so it's a less flexible fleet than the one they've ordered.

This feels... brave.

Yes, well put.

43074 said:
Well the ex Grand Central HSTs only really have one diagram sometimes shared between two sets, 3 of the full rakes are spare on Cricklewood off peak anyway and used in the peaks on services which will be relieved by the 360s. The current timetable isn't particularly efficient so removing some of those inefficiencies will go a long way to cover the shortfall. As I said, there will be crowding but there are enough on paper to replace them which is the objective.

Fewer trains and tighter turnarounds would be a tall order on an intensively used InterCity route anyway. Given that some of the fewer units are notoriously unreliable and that there are fewer carriages overall, I can only see a significant degradation of the quality of service

edwin_m · 26 Sep 2019

yorksrob said:
Fewer trains and tighter turnarounds would be a tall order on an intensively used InterCity route anyway.

The Nottingham fast has about 70min at St Pancras and about 30min at Nottingham. Rearranging the timetable for that will save one set straight away.

Kite159 · 26 Sep 2019

edwin_m said:
The Nottingham fast has about 70min at St Pancras and about 30min at Nottingham. Rearranging the timetable for that will save one set straight away.

Especially since a fast from Nottingham could return to Nottingham as a semifast with the semifast returning as a fast if they are both 222s.

Andrew1395 · 26 Sep 2019

yorksrob said:
I see from Modern Railways that EMR have confirmed the 'plan' to replace all HST's by the end of December 2020 with 180's and cascaded 222's.

Oh dear.

I regular travel to Nottingham. Personally I find the 222s good trains, and ride better than the HSTs.

Kneedown · 27 Sep 2019

Bletchleyite said:
180s will be a disaster.

May I borrow your crystal ball for Saturdays lottery numbers please?

East Midlands franchise won by Abellio

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