So that they all board in first class, yet all have to get off in Standard. I honestly think you need to go back to the drawing board with that from many perspectives. Locking out upto 6 coaches with 20 year old tech? From a technical point of view, it probably is t that hard. But from a real world POV. It’s a non starter.
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WCML New Rolling Stock Discussion
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EE Andy b1
Established Member
Yes ASDO is probably fitted to most if not all new rolling stock now, makes sense.
No they don't have to use the new units for liverpool but being a 5 car set gives the versatility of destinations and pathing. Birmingham terminators, some are single 221s now, would be ideal, and Blackpool only needs a 5 car then coupling to another.
Still not sure if Liverpool needs a 390 on every service for 2 an hour service through the day, but you could say that of Manchester and certain trains could join at Crewe or Stafford and use one path to Euston.
At weekends almost definitely. The tourism side of things has exploded in recent years and you only have to see how many stag/hen dos, football, events like the giants and such and it’s not hard to see why there’s so many on.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
You could dedicate 9-car sets to it, which would make South Parkway easier.
EE Andy b1
Established Member
Agree with that mate for weekends but it mentions Monday -Saturday in the First Trenitalia plans, surly Sunday should have been included as being one of the busiest days. You would hope the diagramming of sets would be right, but as you and i know now they quite often get the wrong formations on the wrong services because of various reasons, some quite unfathomable.
Until we actually know what rollinstock is being ordered we can all guess, but i still think it will be Hitachi 80x s, that can be easily moved on elsewhere in the future when (if) the 54 HS2 Classic compatible units get built.
Them 54 Classic compatible sets are obviously (if HS2 phase 1 & phase 2a) does happen, going to be used on....
Euston via HS2 to Preston/Scotland
Euston via HS2 to Manchester
Euston via HS2 to Liverpool
Euston via HS2 to Brum Curzon Street (initially)
This will free up Class 390s and the NEW West Coast units for other slower stopping services via the Trent and to Birmingham New Street and other destinations, maybe.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
If you can fit power doors and ASDO to Mk3s, and if you can have 4-of-12 SDO on some GWR stations, this is frankly rubbish and it is entirely feasible.
Western Lord
Member
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In the latest issue of Rail magazine (no.886), there is a "Analysis" piece entitled "Is the end in sight for Britain's tilting trains". In it, it is stated that following tests with the Class 397s, "the WCML north of Preston should be signed off for 125mph without tilt in the middle of next year".
EE Andy b1
Established Member
I'm sure you can do most things at a price. Perhaps part of the re-furbish to "as new" for the 390s would be to include upto date technology and better selective door operation. Who knows? First Trenitalia obviously have plans, so let's see.
krus_aragon
Established Member
My initial assumption was that the bi-modes would be roughly Voyager length, and the EMUs would be closer to Pendolino length. But there has been no announcement made about the length of the units, only their number (13 and 10 respecively).
‘Would the passengers in Coaches E-K please walk up to the front of the train to alight at Liverpool South Parkway’. (Liverpool playing at home)
I do wonder if we could see a bit of curve ball with the trains, so something like:
13*5 bimodal trains
7*5 EMU's
3*9 EMU's
That would mean that you could replace some of the Euston-Birmingham-Glasgow services with 3 units rather than 6 and allow you to run EMU's with Bimodals over the electrified sections of the line. If you always schedule the spare units to be bimodal then you should never need to worry about needing to sub an EMU for a bimodal.
(It may not be 3 long units it could be 4 to 6, in fact 6, vs ~12 class 221's currently, would be enough to run the Scottish via Birmingham services on a 1 train every 2 hours - current timetable).
Of course it's unlikely to be a mix of unit lengths with only 10 or 13 units, but stranger things have happened with rolling stock orders - like a new order of trains to replace a brand new fleet not fully in service.
13*5 bimodal trains
7*5 EMU's
3*9 EMU's
That would mean that you could replace some of the Euston-Birmingham-Glasgow services with 3 units rather than 6 and allow you to run EMU's with Bimodals over the electrified sections of the line. If you always schedule the spare units to be bimodal then you should never need to worry about needing to sub an EMU for a bimodal.
(It may not be 3 long units it could be 4 to 6, in fact 6, vs ~12 class 221's currently, would be enough to run the Scottish via Birmingham services on a 1 train every 2 hours - current timetable).
Of course it's unlikely to be a mix of unit lengths with only 10 or 13 units, but stranger things have happened with rolling stock orders - like a new order of trains to replace a brand new fleet not fully in service.
LeylandLen
Member
Please dont forget Preston/Lancaster and passengers from the Lake District. Although I usually start/end my WCML trips at Preston, I see a lot of reserved seats to/from Oxenholme/Penrith and Carlisle .Not everyone on a 390 to/from Glasgow is from Scotland.If only one path per hour, combine a Liverpool /Preston at Crewe ?
I know Len, Hopefully the extra Liverpool - Scotlands are a success and get extended. Maybe the Grand Central Blackpool’s could have scope for exactly what your suggesting in the future with whatever longer term stock they get....
This is the most cheerful / reassuring thing I have read on the topic! Thanks for this bit of common sense, let's hope it comes to pass.
Highly unlikely, and sod Warrington too. It's not good enough: Getting to London more quickly wouldn't excuse slowing down the service from the N Midlands to Scotland.
Doveymain158
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Is there any truth in the rumour about possible more CAF 397s for West Coast?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
There will be new EMUs and bi modes but what they are has not yet been announced.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
This does seem to be the trend (WMT was the same) - with the previous round of franchising you got a proper big launch pretty much on signing day. I wonder why this has changed?
There's probably a number of reasons, however increasing the number of positive headlines must be quite a good reason.
Make an announcement on the new franchise, starting new trains to be provided.
Three to six months later make an announcement on who's building the trains.
Then shortly after that start the new franchise and then launch the new trains.
Another must be the amount speculation which it generates in not announcing the builder. We'd probably have a thread which is shorter and a less interesting read, whilst when the announcement is made we'll add a lot more chatter.
Yeah, maybe they want to develop there brand and launch it all at once. This also allows them to have the images of the new trains be in the livery as well as allowing people to see it on a repainted train.
Could also be that, in my opinion, it isn't quite as big of a deal as it was for Virgin.
Virgin replaced the entire fleet meanwhile First are only replacing the voyagers, which although they have their issues they are still only a couple decades old when virgin launching a completely new fleet.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Yes, certainly the franchise is a somewhat different proposition - much more "business as usual" than a big bang, at least pending HS2.
Don’t rule out B***it being part of the issue. Both in terms of the willingness to enter into a contract with a European supplier without certainty of trade rules etc, (and currency rates swinging around), and Government’s ability to sign anything off st present. My opinion only.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
I think we can be sure that the HS2 dimension to the franchise will not figure strongly in the initial PR.
At the very least, timescales have slipped several years since the West Coast bids were formulated.
That puts more pressure on the classic elements of the offer, including the rolling stock.
At the very least, timescales have slipped several years since the West Coast bids were formulated.
That puts more pressure on the classic elements of the offer, including the rolling stock.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Yes, there's probably a big renegotiation going on behind the scenes. Unless the franchise term is extended significantly, the HS2 element of it has basically gone and it could just revert to being a standard franchise (whatever that means these days).
jayiscupid
Member
Latest issue of Modern Railways states that it will be 13 five-car Bi modes and 10 five-car EMUs. My money would be on Hitachi for both giving you the option of mixing the two fleets to split at Crewe/Preston but only using one path. However, Roger Ford says the new EMUs are assumed to be CAF 397s. (pages 31/32 Modern Railways October edition).
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I too would have said Hitachi for all of them. But if not...what's the point of the EMUs not being full length?
jw
Member
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My thoughts also. On which 'under the wires' services do Voyagers currently operate? I don't see why the opportunity isn't being taken to maximise capacity.
Interesting. I wonder whether that means CAF is going to reveal a bi-mode version of the 397 to cover the bi-mode part of the fleet. They do advertise a bi-mode Civity on their website but without clarity on whether it is an option for the Civity UK or only the mainland European version. Massive shame that it'll be more pointy-nosed 5-car units though.
How much longer do we have to wait for an official announcement; anyone know?
TT-ONR-NRN
Established Member
Does it have to be a train that’s already designed - eg 397/80x or can it be entirely new?
59CosG95
Established Member
They are booked to operate a large proportion of the London - West Midlands - Scotland services (to Glasgow & Edinburgh alike), and the "semi-fast" Blackpool North services in the early morning/late evening. Also the West Midlands diagrams that start/end at Shrewsbury, but have London - Birmingham services in between.
AIUI, no Manchester, Liverpool, fast Blackpool or Glasgow (via Trent Valley) services are booked for Voyagers.
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