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First Greater Glasgow

TheGrandWazoo

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Don't be rude and it's the first thing you do is be rude. You don't get that they've done nothing to the X1 at all and you fail to understand what I've said about bad press etc. It does stick a lot longer than you think and it shows which one of us is Glasgow based that you think it doesn't. You've assumed that I don't think it's a loss maker when I've also said that constantly. If you don't try and change a service ever ofcourse nothing will change but I've said my piece so if you can't get that then that's not on me as I've explained it enough. Most people use passes and longer tickets too anyway so the way forward for First and increasing passenger numbers is by making them even more value for money than they already are and reducing singles slightly

I wasn't being rude just that we're still going over things that have been explained to you. For example, reducing the singles cost has been explained. Given that concessionary fare reimbursement is based on the cost of a single fare, that is why they have gone up. If you reduce them, then you reduce your revenue. This is not confined to First - it is industry wide.

Think about it. If the buses are well loaded at peak so the capacity to sell is limited. If you reduce fares, peak buses are full. Only works if you can improve off peak usage but most of that is concessionary pass use anyway so it's not price sensitive. Can you understand that?

I appreciate that they haven't done enough in terms of marketing in the past but sadly, that's gone. It's in the past. The options now are
  • Reduce off peak - barely a saving as the majority of costs are fixed
  • Reduce frequency in full to hourly - well, that won't satisfy the peak volumes where most of the volume sits
  • Increase fares - that won't be popular as you have said
  • Decrease fares - I've explained above
  • Reroute via Fort - increases costs and will that generate the additional revenue to not only cover the additional costs AND the current losses
Now if you've done some calculations in terms of costs and revenues, then please share them!
 
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PaulMc7

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I wasn't being rude just that we're still going over things that have been explained to you. For example, reducing the singles cost has been explained. Given that concessionary fare reimbursement is based on the cost of a single fare, that is why they have gone up. If you reduce them, then you reduce your revenue. This is not confined to First - it is industry wide.

Think about it. If the buses are well loaded at peak so the capacity to sell is limited. If you reduce fares, peak buses are full. Only works if you can improve off peak usage but most of that is concessionary pass use anyway so it's not price sensitive. Can you understand that?

I appreciate that they haven't done enough in terms of marketing in the past but sadly, that's gone. It's in the past. The options now are
  • Reduce off peak - barely a saving as the majority of costs are fixed
  • Reduce frequency in full to hourly - well, that won't satisfy the peak volumes where most of the volume sits
  • Increase fares - that won't be popular as you have said
  • Decrease fares - I've explained above
  • Reroute via Fort - increases costs and will that generate the additional revenue to not only cover the additional costs AND the current losses
Now if you've done some calculations in terms of costs and revenues, then please share them!

I've understood everything you've said but had to remake my own points constantly because they've been ignored. Keeping it but reducing off peak is the best option because of what I've said about bad blood etc lasting a long time. First will have alienated more people and given that Hamilton is a very close knit community area it'll have an effect on their other services
 

overthewater

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Paul: TGW wasn't being rude, he is no where near some rudeness that has taken place. However it goes to off peak then the buses are sitting idol between 9-3 and well what do you do with the drivers? However First has done to the route in 18 months is correct, I think it would rather get rid.
 

PaulMc7

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Paul: TGW wasn't being rude, he is no where near some rudeness that has taken place. However it goes to off peak then the buses are sitting idol between 9-3 and well what do you do with the drivers? However First has done to the route in 18 months is correct, I think it would rather get rid.

As soon as you bring disabilities of any sort into question like that it's rude.
 

yorkie

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I've understood everything you've said but had to remake my own points constantly because they've been ignored. ...
You can't make people take notice of a suggestion if they think it's not a viable suggestion. I suspect the company will have looked at the cost savings of doing what you suggest, but if you have any figures you can share people may find that interesting.

There cannot be an expectation that an idea or suggestion by any particular member should be deemed a good idea by people with relevant experience; if anyone has an idea the onus is on them to demonstrate it is a good idea.

Can I remind all members to be polite.

And finally a gentle reminder that if anyone has concerns about any post, we ask that the post is reported using the report button (let us know the details of your concern and what rule(s) you think have been broken) and do not republish, react to or refer to any such content.

Thanks :)
 

TheGrandWazoo

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As soon as you bring disabilities of any sort into question like that it's rude.

Please let me assure you, absolutely sincerely, that I wasn't seeking to give offence. My niece is autistic (I know it's not the same as Aspergers) so I would not seek to make capital out of any similar condition.

Believe me, my comment was very much that of trying to recognise that your condition (that you initially raised) might, repeat might, be why you weren't disposed to appreciating some points that had been made. In fact, it made me appreciate more your views and where they were coming from.

Let me say, in front of everyone, that it was not my aim to cause offence and make any point out of anyone's disability or condition. I hope we can move on.
 

PaulMc7

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Please let me assure you, absolutely sincerely, that I wasn't seeking to give offence. My niece is autistic (I know it's not the same as Aspergers) so I would not seek to make capital out of any similar condition.

Believe me, my comment was very much that of trying to recognise that your condition (that you initially raised) might, repeat might, be why you weren't disposed to appreciating some points that had been made. In fact, it made me appreciate more your views and where they were coming from.

Let me say, in front of everyone, that it was not my aim to cause offence and make any point out of anyone's disability or condition. I hope we can move on.

That's fair enough. Glad it's sorted
 

lastbus

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I've understood everything you've said but had to remake my own points constantly because they've been ignored. Keeping it but reducing off peak is the best option because of what I've said about bad blood etc lasting a long time. First will have alienated more people and given that Hamilton is a very close knit community area it'll have an effect on their other services
Can’t see it affecting other First services given they are the main operator in Hamilton. Who else would people use?
 

PaulMc7

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Can’t see it affecting other First services given they are the main operator in Hamilton. Who else would people use?

Scotrail more than anything and for casual journeys into Glasgow the X74 is also an option
 

tbtc

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As is said above, they won't have taken the decision lightly. They haven't gone to consultation probably because they know that they can't really do anything (e.g. diverts that demand extra resources, increased fares, an off peak reduction that actually doesn't achieve any real savings). So if they go down the consultation route, there is nothing for them to gain except accusations that they consulted but it was a cynical exercise and are still doing the same thing anyway.

In fairness to First, one of the things that they are often criticised for (including by me!) is the apparently culture of Death By A Thousand Cuts...

...they might have inherited a route with a ten minute daytime frequency when they took over SBL/ Yorkshire Rider/ Mainline Group etc...

...but to save money they reduce the Saturday afternoon frequency to every fifteen...

...soon the whole Saturday frequency is every fifteen...

...then they reduce the weekday off-peak frequency to match the Saturday frequency, but retain a handful of peak extras...

...then the cost of the peak extras becomes a bit of a luxury so they are cut too...

...so the whole route is every fifteen minutes...

...but then it gets cut to every twenty minutes during the school holidays to save resources (at a quieter time of year, when drivers are wanting a summer holiday)...

...but then one year it doesn't get increased back to the fifteen minute frequency and remains at every twenty minutes once the schools go back...

...then, due to traffic congestion, it becomes easier to change it to an "every twenty five minutes" frequency at rush hour (because that's simpler than finding an additional vehicle to shore up the frequency to cope with longer journey times)...

...but then they find that passenger numbers have gone down so it becomes half hourly...

...then, to cope with twenty year old buses needing to be withdrawn, and the fact that there's no money to purchase brand new vehicles, they reduce the PVR down to every forty or forty five minutes...

...then they decide that a simpler to remember hourly frequency would be better...

...but due to a local independent going bust and the council having previous little money to pay for school trips, they arrange for First to run two school journeys a day, leaving hourly gaps at half eight in the morning and half three in the afternoon...

...then you look back and think, remember when that used to be a "turn up and go" service and now you can wait an hour between journeys? And the cuts I've mentioned will be replicated on the evening/Sunday service too, no doubt.

I exaggerate slightly, but at least with the X1 they are grasping the nettle and taking the tough decision now. Any of the other suggestions on here would probably just be postponing the inevitable - if they need to get rid of some of their oldest buses (to meet the Euro 6 requirement) then this is a fairly easy cut to make - keeping it going with regular cuts is just going to see passenger numbers dwindle and dwindle.

Cutting fares may cannibalise a few passengers from the *other* Hamilton - Glasgow services (by undercutting them), but that doesn't help much.

Of all the cuts that they could make, this is one that doesn't leave any large areas without a bus service.
 

SarahDFIG

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Update
This week we have seen some more movements but these should have been posted elsewhere for viewing.

As I posted previously saying I did think it was paint shop movements rather than permanent movements this has been confirmed by what you see on the roads with express E400MMCs and E200MMCs :o Branded vehicles will not have the front touched.

Express services will all be getting the gold branding removed from what I have been advised. As posted above the 1st 201 vehicle has finally been branded and already been put onto the road. I do believe another has at least been done or is in the process.

Sorry for the lack of information but my info will be watered down in future so an certain someone else can get the credit :rolleyes:
 

Scott mac

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Update
This week we have seen some more movements but these should have been posted elsewhere for viewing.

As I posted previously saying I did think it was paint shop movements rather than permanent movements this has been confirmed by what you see on the roads with express E400MMCs and E200MMCs :o Branded vehicles will not have the front touched.

Express services will all be getting the gold branding removed from what I have been advised. As posted above the 1st 201 vehicle has finally been branded and already been put onto the road. I do believe another has at least been done or is in the process.

Sorry for the lack of information but my info will be watered down in future so an certain someone else can get the credit :rolleyes:
Don't see why u should stop posting Information
 

Scott mac

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Going to be a lot move movement's on the way soon Glasgow is getting other stock from other first companies with their older stock going elsewhere
 

PaulMc7

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Going to be a lot move movement's on the way soon Glasgow is getting other stock from other first companies with their older stock going elsewhere

Thanks for the info. Seen a few double deckers still painted fully dark blue today and a lot of different stock on different services that never really used to have variation
 

PaulMc7

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Had a think about the problems First have and it's definitely been evident today on my travels too.

Used the following buses and not one had double figures in terms of paying customers with this route too:

1D-Scotstoun West to Clydebank
M60-Clydebank to Drumchapel
60-Drumchapel to Trongate
65-Osborne St to Rutherglen
46-Rutherglen to Croftfoot
34-Croftfoot to Battlefield
6-Battlefield to Scotstoun West

There are 3 things this tells me:

I get around fast
Concessions being free on buses but not on trains is a big factor we've not really mentioned
Weekly/monthly passes combined with passenger numbers are so crucial

Single fares may be used to cover fixed costs etc but given the trend these days is that people use the bus either never or all the time then it creates a problem with using that method because if you use the £35 an hour figure from earlier in this thread then you'd need 14 singles per hour at £2.50 or 21 at £1.70 or 8 all-day tickets for adults to cover that and realistically how many buses does that happen on?

Even on the busiest services like the 1s, 61s etc I can't imagine this happening all that often. Even when I travelled to my old job on a 2 most kids had already switched to phone tickets with less paying fares
 
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Bus Lightyear

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Had a think about the problems First have and it's definitely been evident today on my travels too.

Used the following buses and not one had double figures in terms of paying customers with this route too:

1D-Scotstoun West to Clydebank
M60-Clydebank to Drumchapel
60-Drumchapel to Trongate
65-Osborne St to Rutherglen
46-Rutherglen to Croftfoot
34-Croftfoot to Battlefield
6-Battlefield to Scotstoun West

There are 3 things this tells me:

I get around fast
Concessions being free on buses but not on trains is a big factor we've not really mentioned
Weekly/monthly passes combined with passenger numbers are so crucial

Single fares may be used to cover fixed costs etc but given the trend these days is that people use the bus either never or all the time then it creates a problem with using that method because if you use the £35 an hour figure from earlier in this thread then you'd need 14 singles per hour at £2.50 or 21 at £1.70 or 8 all-day tickets for adults to cover that and realistically how many buses does that happen on?

Even on the busiest services like the 1s, 61s etc I can't imagine this happening all that often. Even when I travelled to my old job on a 2 most kids had already switched to phone tickets with less paying fares
You've also got to remember it's the Glasgow September weekend so buses naturally wont be as busy.
 

PaulMc7

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You've also got to remember it's the Glasgow September weekend so buses naturally wont be as busy.

Yeah that's true but it's not just today I've noticed it. Just remembered to notice it today because we've been discussing it and the figures stick in my head a lot more now. It's quite common off peak from the buses I use including the most profitable ones like the 1,2 etc
 

smtglasgow

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Concessions being free on buses but not on trains is a big factor we've not really mentioned
Weekly/monthly passes combined with passenger numbers are so crucial

Single fares may be used to cover fixed costs etc but given the trend these days is that people use the bus either never or all the time then it creates a problem with using that method because if you use the £35 an hour figure from earlier in this thread then you'd need 14 singles per hour at £2.50 or 21 at £1.70 or 8 all-day tickets for adults to cover that and realistically how many buses does that happen on?

The concession ‘problem’ is the reason why the main city fare is going up 10p every 6 months or so at the moment. Bus companies get 56.5% of the adult fare, so about £1.30ish per trip within Glasgow. It’s a double-edged sword. Yes, the amount being reimbursed from Transport Scotland is rubbish, but the fact the ticket is free to the user encourages them to make more trips. There are very good reasons of social inclusion to preserve free travel. The vast majority of fare payers in Glasgow are travelling on weekly or monthly tickets – very few cash fares and not that many day tickets these days either. The Ticketer machines allow First to see exactly where these season tickets are being used, so no doubt they have a method of allocating that revenue to individual services. So the number of people putting £2.50 in the vault is only part of the story.
 

PaulMc7

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The concession ‘problem’ is the reason why the main city fare is going up 10p every 6 months or so at the moment. Bus companies get 56.5% of the adult fare, so about £1.30ish per trip within Glasgow. It’s a double-edged sword. Yes, the amount being reimbursed from Transport Scotland is rubbish, but the fact the ticket is free to the user encourages them to make more trips. There are very good reasons of social inclusion to preserve free travel. The vast majority of fare payers in Glasgow are travelling on weekly or monthly tickets – very few cash fares and not that many day tickets these days either. The Ticketer machines allow First to see exactly where these season tickets are being used, so no doubt they have a method of allocating that revenue to individual services. So the number of people putting £2.50 in the vault is only part of the story.

Yeah cost allocation is such a long winded nightmare process but I can imagine First have a solid structure for it. Yeah I think that's the problem. It needs to be free but the amount bus companies are given also needs to be far greater
 

156478

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Messages
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Had a think about the problems First have and it's definitely been evident today on my travels too.

Used the following buses and not one had double figures in terms of paying customers with this route too:

1D-Scotstoun West to Clydebank
M60-Clydebank to Drumchapel
60-Drumchapel to Trongate
65-Osborne St to Rutherglen
46-Rutherglen to Croftfoot
34-Croftfoot to Battlefield
6-Battlefield to Scotstoun West

There are 3 things this tells me:

I get around fast
Concessions being free on buses but not on trains is a big factor we've not really mentioned
Weekly/monthly passes combined with passenger numbers are so crucial

Single fares may be used to cover fixed costs etc but given the trend these days is that people use the bus either never or all the time then it creates a problem with using that method because if you use the £35 an hour figure from earlier in this thread then you'd need 14 singles per hour at £2.50 or 21 at £1.70 or 8 all-day tickets for adults to cover that and realistically how many buses does that happen on?

Even on the busiest services like the 1s, 61s etc I can't imagine this happening all that often. Even when I travelled to my old job on a 2 most kids had already switched to phone tickets with less paying fares

That is indeed a packed itinerary!

It is the same reason why McGills resisted day tickets in the Inverclyde area until quite recently.

If you read the book by George Watson "I tried to run a bus company but"... he wrote about his time at Clydeside and he writes in detail about the costs at the time of operating buses. In fact in one section he has put in the book the Proposal Paper he used to justify using Mini Buses on Local routes in Paisley with a detailed breakdown of costs and profit margins and there is also another part where he discusses his rationale of running local bus services in Johnstone. They knew exactly how much each bus took in and it talks in detail about running costs and how difficult it is to operate buses. And its a good bit of nostalgia also. Worth a read if you can find it.
 

PaulMc7

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That is indeed a packed itinerary!

It is the same reason why McGills resisted day tickets in the Inverclyde area until quite recently.

If you read the book by George Watson "I tried to run a bus company but"... he wrote about his time at Clydeside and he writes in detail about the costs at the time of operating buses. In fact in one section he has put in the book the Proposal Paper he used to justify using Mini Buses on Local routes in Paisley with a detailed breakdown of costs and profit margins and there is also another part where he discusses his rationale of running local bus services in Johnstone. They knew exactly how much each bus took in and it talks in detail about running costs and how difficult it is to operate buses. And its a good bit of nostalgia also. Worth a read if you can find it.

Thank you for the recommendation. Yeah I remember Mcgills without them and it was weird but thinking back I do get the reasoning behind it. Until the government and councils help out far more I fully expect bus passenger numbers to dwindle.
 

156478

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Messages
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In fairness to First, one of the things that they are often criticised for (including by me!) is the apparently culture of Death By A Thousand Cuts...

...they might have inherited a route with a ten minute daytime frequency when they took over SBL/ Yorkshire Rider/ Mainline Group etc...

...but to save money they reduce the Saturday afternoon frequency to every fifteen...

...soon the whole Saturday frequency is every fifteen...

...then they reduce the weekday off-peak frequency to match the Saturday frequency, but retain a handful of peak extras...

...then the cost of the peak extras becomes a bit of a luxury so they are cut too...

...so the whole route is every fifteen minutes...

...but then it gets cut to every twenty minutes during the school holidays to save resources (at a quieter time of year, when drivers are wanting a summer holiday)...

...but then one year it doesn't get increased back to the fifteen minute frequency and remains at every twenty minutes once the schools go back...

...then, due to traffic congestion, it becomes easier to change it to an "every twenty five minutes" frequency at rush hour (because that's simpler than finding an additional vehicle to shore up the frequency to cope with longer journey times)...

...but then they find that passenger numbers have gone down so it becomes half hourly...

...then, to cope with twenty year old buses needing to be withdrawn, and the fact that there's no money to purchase brand new vehicles, they reduce the PVR down to every forty or forty five minutes...

...then they decide that a simpler to remember hourly frequency would be better...

...but due to a local independent going bust and the council having previous little money to pay for school trips, they arrange for First to run two school journeys a day, leaving hourly gaps at half eight in the morning and half three in the afternoon...

...then you look back and think, remember when that used to be a "turn up and go" service and now you can wait an hour between journeys? And the cuts I've mentioned will be replicated on the evening/Sunday service too, no doubt.

I exaggerate slightly, but at least with the X1 they are grasping the nettle and taking the tough decision now. Any of the other suggestions on here would probably just be postponing the inevitable - if they need to get rid of some of their oldest buses (to meet the Euro 6 requirement) then this is a fairly easy cut to make - keeping it going with regular cuts is just going to see passenger numbers dwindle and dwindle.

Cutting fares may cannibalise a few passengers from the *other* Hamilton - Glasgow services (by undercutting them), but that doesn't help much.

Of all the cuts that they could make, this is one that doesn't leave any large areas without a bus service.

Agreed totally. First have been on a bit of a sprial in Scotland and it's hard to find that magical solution to get people back on buses. Maybe they have played their part or not but the death by a thousand cuts is not a phenomenon that is local- it's been nationwide.

We can sit here and cast our opinions good or bad about any of the big player bus companies and we all have our opinions and different knowledge sets, but the reality is bus operating is not the pot of gold everyone thinks it is or even how it used to be a decade ago.

It's hard to think of another way of dealing with such a decline of people using the bus.

The death of the High Street, people flocking to out of town retail parks and shopping centres, Brexit, the flustering economy, congestion due to the car, local authorities not having the money or even the want to put down bus lanes or even consider Hard shoulder running on motorways. It's a grim time to be trying to run buses.


It's been a good debate on here recently.
 

PaulMc7

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Tried to breakdown some things that need to change for bus usage to increase and the list ended up longer than I realised:

More route options in specific areas so not all buses go to the same place
Better concession pass subsidy
Better bus funding, in general, to result in more investment
Constant innovation
Solid customer relationships
Using social media to their advantage
Getting feedback from customers and using it to improve
Consultation over changes
Giving info to customers over services at risk due to loss-making therefore removing customer complacency
Not giving up on routes without trying anything
Councils reducing store rents meaning more businesses and shops last longer attracting more people to town centres
Dropping car favouring policies and dealing with congestion
Tackling anti-social behaviour on buses
Cost of living needing to decrease so people can afford to use buses more often
Realistic timetables that can actually be achieved at all times especially around peaks

Think that's everything for now and if anyone has anything else I'm all for it. Shows how hard it really is for bus companies here
 

PaulMc7

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Final X1 point from me. Say a miracle happened and everyone who used it at peaks does switch over to the 255/263/267 given the fact the 255 and 263 are every 30 mins then surely they need to be all decker to cope with the extra demand? Seen the occasional decker on a 263 and 267 but it'll definitely need more of them given the frequency of the alternatives.

I'd also hate to be a passenger from say Cambuslang/Mount Vernon etc too as you'll be lucky to get on

The times you'd need to get a bus from Hamilton Bus Station to make it into Glasgow even for 9 am are a bit crazy too and you'd definitely need a bus to be on time:

255- 7:17 due 8:21 at BBS
7:47 due 8:51 at BBS

263- 7:14 due 8:16 at BBS
7:43 due 8:47 at BBS

267- 7:10 due 8:16 at BBS
7:30 due 8:36 at BBS
 
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mde

Member
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17 Nov 2016
Messages
513
I had one until I was 12 because of my Aspergers Syndrome and I've seen more older people who don't have one than do. I've been on more than enough buses to see how easy it is for some people to get them. I've even heard people say they've just chanced it to get one and got given it
Without trying to drag this OT, it's not as simple as this looks.

60+ cards are issued by request (form at the Post Office, libraries etc); cards for users with a disability / qualifying condition are issued based on evidence - sometimes that's DWP evidence, other times it's medical. The criteria is on the TS website. In Strathclyde, SPT enforce the rules, and, they are quite strict in their implementation… they will pour over medical evidence and send it back if it doesn't contain a particular word they are looking for.

In terms of the cards themselves, the 56.5% reimbursement rate isn't so good - First getting circa £1.41 in the farebox (56.5% of £2.50) is poor, but, we have to consider the fact that it's revenue they might not otherwise have received. The cards can make travel more desirable for some groups of people who otherwise might not have used the bus.

Does it affect the viability of services such as the X1? Maybe. Only First will know the economics behind their decisions, but, we can't assume there is any malice in their decision to cancel it; it's a commercial matter, it'd likely be the same if there was a municipal operator behind the scenes.
 

PaulMc7

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Without trying to drag this OT, it's not as simple as this looks.

60+ cards are issued by request (form at the Post Office, libraries etc); cards for users with a disability / qualifying condition are issued based on evidence - sometimes that's DWP evidence, other times it's medical. The criteria is on the TS website. In Strathclyde, SPT enforce the rules, and, they are quite strict in their implementation… they will pour over medical evidence and send it back if it doesn't contain a particular word they are looking for.

In terms of the cards themselves, the 56.5% reimbursement rate isn't so good - First getting circa £1.41 in the farebox (56.5% of £2.50) is poor, but, we have to consider the fact that it's revenue they might not otherwise have received. The cards can make travel more desirable for some groups of people who otherwise might not have used the bus.

Does it affect the viability of services such as the X1? Maybe. Only First will know the economics behind their decisions, but, we can't assume there is any malice in their decision to cancel it; it's a commercial matter, it'd likely be the same if there was a municipal operator behind the scenes.

Yeah it's such a tough situation for First and I somehow think they're holding back cuts on some services to make it not seem as bad if they split them up instead of all in one go. Would probably need the reimbursement to be the full 100% to help out in some cases. Yeah I would love to see a list of potential at risk services and how much more they'd need to make. Yeah a lot of people think if buses were public, cuts wouldn't happen but we'd definitely still get them
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Final X1 point from me. Say a miracle happened and everyone who used it at peaks does switch over to the 255/263/267 given the fact the 255 and 263 are every 30 mins then surely they need to be all decker to cope with the extra demand? Seen the occasional decker on a 263 and 267 but it'll definitely need more of them given the frequency of the alternatives.

I'm sure that First have factored in that most of the passengers from the X1 will choose the train rather than the longer bus journey. So lose 100% of the X1 cost but lose 90% - still more financially advantageous to First.
 

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